- BubbleMonkey ( @BubbleMonkey@slrpnk.net ) English94•5 months ago
You know I love the idea of cryostasis, and the idea of reanimating people after death is great.
But why the fuck would future humans bother bringing all these people back, even if they could? Even if they have a utopian society free of scarcity and inequality, they would be bringing back mostly rich people who lived in a super different and bad time and have literally nothing positive to contribute to the utopian future, since they were a large part of the problems of today in the first place. Plus the vast majority of them are almost certainly elitist assholes who nobody in a utopia would want to be around.
Maybe it would be a humanitarian thing, but if these people are dead and frozen there’s no real imperative to do this to end suffering or something. Or I guess maybe bringing them back to try and figure out what the hell their damage is that they felt ruining everything was a better option than working toward the betterment of all… but they’d only need a few brains in vats for that, no bodies, so sucks to suck, cryofolks.
If future humans don’t have a utopian society, the only real use for people from so long ago that I can come up with would be research subjects or slaves. And frankly there are easier ways to go about getting those…
So I see no possible future where people who cryopreserve get brought back en masse. Even if it’s entirely possible to surmount the technical hurdles.
- clara ( @clara@feddit.uk ) English46•5 months ago
why would future humans bother bringing all these people back
i think it’s worth reminding why doctors treat people now, in this time and space. they do it mostly because they want to save people. maybe a few do it for money, but past a certain point, the money isn’t why you do it. i think it’s a safe bet that doctors of a future would see these corpses as patients, and act accordingly. an analogy - think how we see heart attack victims as patients, and not how our medieval ancestors would have seen them (as corpses)
…literally nothing positive to contribute to the utopian future…
true, but, a good chunk of patients in hopsital today have nothing to contribute to society, and cannot contribute any more, whatsoever. we treat them anyway, because that’s what we do. humans have consistently cared for others that are sick and have “nothing to contribute” throughout history, and that shows no sign of going away anytime soon
- Texas_Hangover ( @Texas_Hangover@lemm.ee ) English14•5 months ago
Lmao, remember that revived 80’s douchbag business man on star trek TNG?
- Xephonian ( @Xephonian@retrolemmy.com ) English5•5 months ago
My only regret is that I have boneitis.
- interdimensionalmeme ( @interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml ) English12•5 months ago
That’s because you’re thinking in term of a society that views most people as a burdensome and undesirable liability. Something we wish we could get rid of faster if possible. It might be tgat in the future, human minds aren’t as poisoned by clubofrome population omb neoliberal billionaire thinking.
- dutchkimble ( @dutchkimble@lemy.lol ) English12•5 months ago
I think they’re frozen before they’re dead, so the reason to bring them back would be to not do that murder thing, and also to fulfill contractual obligations, and as a business showcase to the world that you’re ready to receive more customers for a freeze and bring you back service instead of a freeze and kill you service.
- BubbleMonkey ( @BubbleMonkey@slrpnk.net ) English16•5 months ago
Admittedly I don’t know much about cryopreservation (looked into it many years ago as a curiosity) but my understanding, and the article says the same, is that they clinically die first and then it’s a rush to preserve them before too much breakdown happens. Since it’s quite expensive, most people only preserve their brain or head, which is removed before being frozen. I’m not sure legally they would be able to do this pre-death, since the harvesting/preserving would directly cause death as we currently understand and classify it, and assisted euthanasia of any flavor is illegal in most places.
- GloriousGouda ( @glouriousgouda@lemmy.myserv.one ) English7•5 months ago
Don’t worry the people performing the preservation don’t know much about it either.
- BubbleMonkey ( @BubbleMonkey@slrpnk.net ) English3•5 months ago
That’s true.
- dev_null ( @dev_null@lemmy.ml ) English10•5 months ago
But why the fuck would future humans bother bringing all these people back, even if they could?
There are many valid issues to raise with this bring unlikely to work, but this point seems silly. Why would a road maintenance worker fix a pothole, he’s not from around and will never benefit from it? Because it’s his job he’s paid to do, and he’s not having a philosophical discussion about it. Whatever future lab technician will be just going to work in the morning as well, paid by their company, funded by the money the preserved people paid. There isn’t much to it.
But it’s interesting you said that future humans would kill these people because the preserved people are useless assholes. I’m not that sure you labeled the assholes right in your scenario. Your future humans seem ageist and elitist, thinking only they deserve to live.
There is at least one example I remember from the news of a 20-something girl with cancer being preserved, paid for by pooling money from the family and donations. Unlikely to work but she would have died anyway. So what did she do wrong that she doesn’t deserve to be woken up, in your future where the technology is there?
- SkyNTP ( @SkyNTP@lemmy.ml ) English5•5 months ago
A financial, legal, or even just a tit-for-tat incentive is realistically all it would take. You assume that some utopia that has shed those ideas is the only one capable of such technology.
In reality, it’s greed and self-preservation that is running this show, and this is all that is needed to produce awe-inspiring feats.
- Alien Nathan Edward ( @reverendsteveii@lemm.ee ) English5•5 months ago
okay but how do you establish any of those incentives with people who simply don’t exist? eventually the agreements fall apart as all parties involved are either dead or cryostatic, and the agreements will have to compel someone who was never party to them to take some sort of action. Like, I guess you could put a reward in trust but even then you’d need some sort of legal entity to manage and distribute it that would, itself, need an incentive in trust in order to continue, and so on in an infinite regression.
- BubbleMonkey ( @BubbleMonkey@slrpnk.net ) English2•5 months ago
I certainly don’t think a utopia is the only option and even have a bit in there about non-utopian societies.
Utopian societies that are post-scarcity are just the most likely to have the resources and desire, and even then I’m not seeing it as realistic.
And how are you going to incentivize something decades or centuries down the line? I’m not seeing that one working either.
- Umbrias ( @Umbrias@beehaw.org ) English2•5 months ago
“Why would a society bring people back to life when they [describes why you think they deserve to die]”
Happy to know you’re not going to be solely responsible for bringing them back!
- Björn Tantau ( @bjoern_tantau@swg-empire.de ) English53•5 months ago
Is that what Walt Gisnep is right now?
- magic_lobster_party ( @magic_lobster_party@kbin.run ) 46•5 months ago
Disney will soon announce the new movie Soup in an attempt to take over the top search results of “Disney Soup”.
- Norgur ( @Norgur@fedia.io ) 33•5 months ago
So that’s why it’s called Frozen!
- m-p{3} ( @mp3@lemmy.ca ) English32•5 months ago
Let it goo
- maynarkh ( @maynarkh@feddit.nl ) English9•5 months ago
To be honest, I wouldn’t be surprised
- Zoop ( @Zoop@beehaw.org ) English36•5 months ago
Here’s a link to the article in the screenshot, in case anyone else was interested in reading it like I was: https://www.freethink.com/futurology/cryogenically-frozen-humans
- 𝕸𝖔𝖘𝖘 ( @01189998819991197253@infosec.pub ) English18•5 months ago
Thanks for this. Quite gruesome, but not at all unexpected. I remember having a conversation with a friend of mine a while back, where I made the argument that water expands when frozen and, since humans are mostly water, freezing a human would crack every vital organ. I’m actually upset to discover I was right.
- dev_null ( @dev_null@lemmy.ml ) English15•5 months ago
This is true, which is why preservation does not involve freezing, except for the bad attempts in the 70s the article talks about, which could never work. The bodies are vitrified, not frozen.
Which still doesn’t mean it will work, the technology to revive them doesn’t exist, but it doesn’t have any freezing issue.
- 𝕸𝖔𝖘𝖘 ( @01189998819991197253@infosec.pub ) English1•5 months ago
That actually doesn’t sound much better to me, but my understanding of vitrification is minimal, at best. Still cool, though.
- TheHooligan95 ( @TheHooligan95@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) English7•5 months ago
there could be a way maybe, by freezing water while keeping it extremely pressurized (extremely), you can make “efficient ice” that occupies less space, called ice VII, I’m not kidding. It would cost literally billions of dollars so not yet feasible, but it keeps my sci-fi loving mind at ease.
- Natanael ( @Natanael@slrpnk.net ) English5•5 months ago
Flash freezing can work, but it’s almost impossible for something as large as a human body.
- IrritableOcelot ( @IrritableOcelot@beehaw.org ) English4•5 months ago
Cryoprotectants also do this pretty efficiently – they prevent crystallization, which leads to “vitreous” ice, which has more or less the same structure as liquid water and so doesn’t expand much. I think they do use that when freezing people, but the problem is that even if you fill the blood vessels with pure ethylene glycol, it diffuses very slowly, and it takes hours to get into cells which are far from large blood vessels. They dont diffuse the cryoprotectant in that thoroughly, though, because that’d take so long the body would have started to decay too much.
Edit: oops, the article talks about vitrifying agents. They make it sound like they’re not effective, but as I said above, they’re very effective if you can get them in every nook and cranny of every cell, which is a losing battle.
- interdimensionalmeme ( @interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml ) English4•5 months ago
It’s fine, as long as the temperature stays stable and no further damage is done. We’re not going to revive their flesh. Instead we’re going to chop them off in large chunks. Suspend them in a kind of agar. Then laser off 2nanometer at a time. Scan the surface with 1nm resolution PiFM or better method. That’s going to yield many terabytes of image data that you can turms into a neural map of the entire nervous system. Even mapping this data to today’s LLM would get something roughly able to speak like the corpse. The better this data processing gets the more real the resurrected sentiences will be.
- wahming ( @wahming@monyet.cc ) English6•5 months ago
That’s assuming the freezing process hasn’t irreparably damaged the brain structure, which I don’t think anybody can confidently assert at the moment.
- 𝕸𝖔𝖘𝖘 ( @01189998819991197253@infosec.pub ) English1•5 months ago
This sounds pretty amazing. Do you have any sources (or process names that I can search)? I would love to read more into the LLM part of your statement. Seriously sounds like scifi, and I’m loving it.
- interdimensionalmeme ( @interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml ) English2•5 months ago
Visible human project for the 1993 first experiment 2013 slice culture modeling of central nervous system 2019 visible human body slice segmentation method 2022 scalable mapping of myelin and neuron density inthe human brain with micrometer resolution
In fiction We are legion, we are Bob Fun book but novice writer
Probably covered by futurist youtuber isaac arthur, probably part of the mind upload episode
- 𝕸𝖔𝖘𝖘 ( @01189998819991197253@infosec.pub ) English1•5 months ago
I’m familiar with some of those, but they don’t digitally map thought and then read that map. At least not the last time I looked into them… Do they now?
- interdimensionalmeme ( @interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml ) English2•5 months ago
Here is something close to tge cutting edge. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSG3_JvnCkU
What they are creating is a connectome. A list of all neurons and their connection.
They are down to 34nm slices.
I said 2nm because the smallest features are 5nm inside the gap between neurons called synapses.
Presumably, there are no features enconding information smaller than that in the brain.
But just the connectome might be enough to replicate a consciousness.
- 𝕸𝖔𝖘𝖘 ( @01189998819991197253@infosec.pub ) English1•5 months ago
Very interesting! Maybe once we understand the structure, we can recreate what’s behind the structure. Not sure if that’s a good thing, but it certainly is intriguing.
- at_an_angle ( @at_an_angle@lemmy.one ) English5•5 months ago
Posting my favorite cryogenics story of all time.
- dumbass ( @dumbass@leminal.space ) English34•5 months ago
Reminds me of the time when I was younger, scrolling rotten.com and came across that picture of the dude who died in the bath, but had this thing that kept the water warm, so he just turned into a giant human stew.
- androogee (they/she) ( @androogee@midwest.social ) English12•5 months ago
What do you call a guy with no arms and no legs taking a bath?
- dumbass ( @dumbass@leminal.space ) English18•5 months ago
The reason I couldn’t eat stew for a decade?
- zurohki ( @zurohki@aussie.zone ) English6•5 months ago
Bob.
- Zoop ( @Zoop@beehaw.org ) English5•5 months ago
His name!
- Akasazh ( @Akasazh@feddit.nl ) English1•5 months ago
Username checks out
- Kalkaline ( @Kalkaline@leminal.space ) English2•5 months ago
Bob?
- OldWoodFrame ( @OldWoodFrame@lemm.ee ) English33•5 months ago
A couple days ago my milk was all chunky when I tried to pour it in my cereal, because refrigerated air that was supposed to go to the fridge got blocked.
Milk wasn’t expired, just went bad due to a random mechanical issue over the course of the length of time the milk was being preserved.
Anyway, what’s all this about cryogenics?
- fencepost ( @fencepost@infosec.pub ) English7•5 months ago
Blocked by stuff or frozen up? If frozen, you may have a defrost timer problem.
- OldWoodFrame ( @OldWoodFrame@lemm.ee ) English4•5 months ago
It was blocked by frost so uhh does sound like that second thing.
- Risk ( @Risk@feddit.uk ) English32•5 months ago
Rich people are truly fucking insane.
- Hobbes ( @Hobbes@startrek.website ) English32•5 months ago
Did they get their money back? I didn’t read the article.
- CouncilOfFriends ( @CouncilOfFriends@slrpnk.net ) English9•5 months ago
Well they’re dead
- Hobbes ( @Hobbes@startrek.website ) English6•5 months ago
Wooooosh
- And009 ( @And009@lemmynsfw.com ) English3•5 months ago
It’s a generational loan. Their grandkids are paying
- jupyter_rain ( @jupyter_rain@discuss.tchncs.de ) English31•5 months ago
Forbidden soup
- some pirate ( @Luisp@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) English27•5 months ago
Reminds me of the Egyptian aristocracy, they would be pissed off if they knew their 4000 yo mummy will end up getting shown at a museum or destroyed by a tomb raider. But what would happen if they managed to revive them today, probably a temporary experiment on a lab, the pharaoh just lived in a closed environment for a couple of months and for most of modern day people it would be just some science news they scrolled by on tiktok
- frezik ( @frezik@midwest.social ) English25•5 months ago
How about being ground up into powder and put into medicine? I’m sure they’d love that one.
- zagaberoo ( @zagaberoo@beehaw.org ) English6•5 months ago
- I Cast Fist ( @ICastFist@programming.dev ) English3•5 months ago
destroyed by a tomb raider
And not even a sexy, big breasted one with skintight shirt and very short shorts.
- Dumbkid ( @Dumbkid@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) English1•5 months ago
Most mummies we found we ate
- dev_null ( @dev_null@lemmy.ml ) English25•5 months ago
If anyone is actually interested in learning how this works, this is a great blog post, from an author convinced like many that it’s a stupid thing for the rich, until… Well have a read: https://waitbutwhy.com/2016/03/cryonics.html
- I_am_10_squirrels ( @I_am_10_squirrels@beehaw.org ) English7•5 months ago
The author tries to disprove that cryonics isn’t limited to rich people, while also pointing our the $200,000 upfront cost. Sure, a middle class American could probably swing the $300 annual fees, but most would be hard pressed for the $200k upfront cost.
- dev_null ( @dev_null@lemmy.ml ) English2•5 months ago
The $300/year annual fees would be for a life insurance policy that already covers the main fee. There isn’t a 200k to pay in that case.
- grrgyle ( @grrgyle@slrpnk.net ) English2•5 months ago
This article looks really juicy! I didn’t even really ever think about the difference between cryonics and cryogenics.
- Evil_Shrubbery ( @Evil_Shrubbery@lemm.ee ) English10•5 months ago
Gazpacho, non-vegan.
- Borovicka ( @Borovicka@lemm.ee ) English2•5 months ago
But eating the rich is vegan, no?
- Evil_Shrubbery ( @Evil_Shrubbery@lemm.ee ) English1•5 months ago
Normally yes, because you can’t do more for nature & people than that.
But in this case it’s just too late, the rich already turned into regular (tho toxic) meat as it neared the end of its life.
Now, if you get a regular not-about-to-die rich and turn it into a smoothie, then yes, vegan gazpacho.
- Destide ( @sirico@feddit.uk ) English10•5 months ago
As long as Simon Phoenix doesn’t get defrosted I’m good
- dethedrus ( @dethedrus@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) English5•5 months ago
Mellow greetings, sir. What seems to be your boggle?
- aport ( @aport@programming.dev ) English2•5 months ago
MURDER DEATH KILL MURDER DEATH KILL MURDER DEATH KILL
- humbletightband ( @humbletightband@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) English6•5 months ago
Anyway they were already dead when they were frozen