With apologies for voicing an opinion rather than linking an external article.
I am of the strong opinion that Remembrance Day had become at best grandstanding, and at worst, completely meaningless. There are phases tossed around like “Lest we Forget” or “Never Again”. But when Russia invaded Ukraine, we have effectively done the opposite (or very nearly).
Sure, we can send ammo so Ukranians can fight back, or host some of their forces for training. But the reality is, we are only marginally involved. We haven’t mobilized. We aren’t on war footing economically.
The root causes are many. But a combination of NATO’s article 5 protection only kicking in if we are attacked (rather than joining an already existing war), and the threat of nuclear retaliation, means we are paralyzed politically.
At a minimum: I would support direct involvement, whether that’s ramping up our own military, deploying specialists, reservists for minesweeping, stationing our own troops (meagre as they are) in Ukraine to directly support the fight. I would actually support much larger actions, including naval blockades or airspace closures but wholly understand that Canada cannot execute those on their own.
We cannot allow genocidal wars to be pressed in the modern world. And we should be doing everything we can about it. Right now, we’re doing barely more than nothing.
You have forgotten the meaning of remembrance if you think the point is to glorify war. It’s meant to remember the sacrifices made, not hope for more.
Instead of spending billions on a war machine to try to solve a problem … spend billions on peaceful resolutions and negotiations.
And don’t tell me that you can’t, shouldn’t or don’t want to negotiate with Nazis, authoritarians or any other descriptor you use to demonize opponents. You are right, there are nasty, ugly, authoritarian leaders out there … but we still need to create platforms to talk to them to end hostilities.
The old cave man mentality of killing people or figuring out how to kill as many people as possible to make a point or win an argument is completely stupid.
If you invest in war … you will get a war.
If you invest in peace … you will get peace.
Millions died to remind us that war is no answer … yet we forget every year and still try to argue that killing people will solve problems.
To echo OP a bit, negotiate based on what? You can’t just “negotiate” aggression away if you have no leverage. A country with no military has no leverage.
Maybe you’re not a caveman, but plenty of people are, and being pacifists will get us killed.
Then you are bending the argument to extremes … I never said take your gun away to start talking.
In extreme situations when there is no longer any option, fighting may be necessary.
But if the world continually creates situations where everyone is led to only the option of death and war and especially when governments and industries and corporations can only understand that investing billions into a war machine is the only option anyone will consider … then we will only ever see death and destruction.
We’re no different with our mentality a thousand years ago … we just have better weapons now.
Well, I pretty much agree with that, then. NATO guidelines are to spend 2% of GDP on the military, and I think that’s reasonable. I’m certainly not suggesting >25% like some of the more militaristic nations in recent history.
Russia will be spending something on the order of 6% of their GDP on war this year. Obviously their GDP isn’t that high, but neither is their military cost per unit. If NATO were to spend 2% and funnel a fraction of that into Ukraine, the war simply could not be sustained by Russia. The combined GDP of NATO is insane.
However, there’s a caveat-- at some point, Ukraine will run out of soldiers to operate the equipment. Then what?
How many years are we willing to let a continuous conflict go by doing the bare minimum? Is it better to do very little and let a war drag on for years? Unlikely. The only people that benefit then are the arms dealers.
What happens if NATO is deadlocked on intervention because Article 5 is never triggered. Everyone sits around waiting while Russia makes slow gains in a war of attrition? NATO uses their increased funding to buy a bunch of fighter jets that’ll never see combat? We just give up Ukraine?
After a cursory review of available sources, Saudi Arabia appears to be the major country with the highest current military funding by GDP (there are some smaller states as outliers). They are at around 8%. Some projections suggest Russia might hit 10% this year.
For the sake of historical comparison, Nazi Germany was at 10% in 1936, and 75% in 1944. The Soviet Union was 5% in 1936, and 60% in 1944. I have a suspicion that Russia is so committed to winning that they’d be willing to follow those extreme examples. What do we do then? (The US reached 38% during the war.)
So, take some of these figures with a grain of salt. 6% for modern Russia sounds right, and >25% for the Nazis and Soviets during the second half of the 20th century sounds right. North Korea and maybe Eritrea would be the contemporary examples of that, although it’s hard to collect the data. However, the Saudi military is famously useless (on purpose so there’s no coups), and I imagine the money given out is mostly a slush fund for the appointees that run it.
However, there’s a caveat-- at some point, Ukraine will run out of soldiers to operate the equipment. Then what?
Indeed. Aside from internal trouble in NATO-land that’s Russia’s main path to victory. Ukraine is pretty populous itself, so it’s not hopeless, but we can’t rule it out in the long term either. But, I’m not sure unilaterally getting involved is a good solution.
For one thing, we’d lose our article 5 protections (otherwise NATO would get drawn into everybody’s pet projects) and would run the risk of a direct Russian invasion. I don’t think they could do it, because the oceans and ice cap are a pretty tricky obstacle, but they would definitely bomb us and our little airforce couldn’t really stop them. That’s a big sacrifice.
Internationally, that would piss our friends of the to Nth degree. It would be a hell of an escalation in a world that’s worried about MAD, and the bombing raids on Calgary would be right across the 49th from America’s missile silos, which would make them very nervous from a first strike perspective. From a propaganda perspective this would also look great for Putin, as suddenly he’s directly fighting the West, and someone from the West he might beat sometimes. Put together, I fully expect Canada would get kicked out of all the clubs we can be kicked out of, not that you really need CETA that bad with ports that aren’t safe for civilian traffic.
My main hope for Ukraine going forwards is new technology. Particularly, Sweden’s Gripens were built with this exact war in mind, just further north, so Turkey needs to get out of the way. Other than that we just have to hope they can kill 4 Russians for every Ukrainian, or that Putin’s hold on the domestic situation is indeed tenuous.
How many would the Nazis have killed if they weren’t stopped militarily?
Would the Nazis have come to power if the world’s wealthiest individuals, corporations and companies had not supported them or financed them? Check out political movements in the 1920s and 1930s and fascism and Nazism was a fairly acceptable movement at the time.
The Nazi Third Reich didn’t appear in a vacuum or come out of thin air, they were born out of the money and financing of wealthy backers who wanted them in power.
The wealthiest didn’t try to stop them until their pet project got out of hand and out of control.
Everyone likes to talk about who the Nazis ended up becoming … but no one ever likes to discuss where they came from and how they came to power.
Would the Nazis have come to power if the world’s wealthiest individuals, corporations and companies had not supported them or financed them?
You have a point, but how would you stop them from doing that?
All boils down to money and who has control of the majority of it.
If everyone votes for a conservative or far right political party that gives more power to monied interests … eventually the greed will consume everything to the point of small groups of people wanting to control everything and everyone using all means necessary, even war.
- LeFantome ( @LeFantome@programming.dev ) 5•11 months ago
Philosophically, I am very attracted by what you are saying here. It is certainly something to hope for and not to give up on. We cannot completely ignore the evidence of history however.
Are you familiar with the name Neville Chamberlain and the phrase “Peace for our time”? Neville would be applauding your post. Many people believe his desire for peace allowed a lot of war, death, and suffering that could have been avoided.
The real world is complicated. What you want and what you must do are not always the same thing.
The appeasement that led up to WW2 is completely different to anything today.
The world was negotiating with an ultra right wing fanatical political movement that was expansionist with a lot of motivation … a small nation with no natural resources, no fuel and no land area. Coupled with an economy that was destroyed by a previous war and now based all their economy on the military and in expansion to new territory. Not to mention that the western nations supported this fanatical right wing movement at the start … the German war machine was partly funded, supported and assisted by British, American and other European corporations, leaders and even monarchies. Henry Ford is a prime example that supported Nazi Germany and even got an award from Hitler himself … they built Germany’s military trucks leading up to the war … not as Ford but as a newly created company called Opal. International industrial companies, chemical companies, civilian, military, medical and manufacturing companies all lined up to build the German war machine … even as they all knew that Germany was not allowed to build up their military again. Aircraft, ships, military equipment all built inside the most monitored nation in Europe after being blamed by the last war … and the allies turned a blind eye.
Modern Russia has none of these parallels … they don’t have a large enough or modern military (it pales in comparison to the Americans), they have abundant resources and they have more than enough land space. If they had wanted to expand, they would have done it long ago and they would have failed. The only thing the Russians have is nuclear weapons but its a useless weapon because once those are used … everyone loses. Wealthy oligarchs in Russia and everywhere else only have one motivation to not use nuclear weapons … money and finances … they all know that once nuclear weapons start destroying the world, it will take most or all of their imaginary wealth locked up on digital global finances. So everyone on all sides have the greatest motivation to not start nuclear war … greed.
Chamberlain’s appeasement was a false agreement with fascism even when they all knew they were making a deal with the devil who was building an army that everyone knew about (because they were building it with everyone).
Look at the dynamics of the war in Ukraine … Ukraine fights Russia using American funding and resources … without America, there is no war … which means America is fighting a proxy war with Russia. The Americans don’t mind this kind of conflict … they can use their hardware and money and no American lives will be lost … no one cares if Ukrainians die so the war will continue until enough Russians or Ukrainians die … or if America runs out of money.
Just because I’m a car history guy, I think you have some broken information about Opel.
The company predated Nazi Germany by a long shot as a general equipment manufacturer in the 1800s and was one of the biggest auto producers in the 1920s holding over 25% of the market. They were actually bought by General Motors (not Ford) in 1929.
Where you did get it right is the famous Brandenburg factory was funded partly by the Nazi government and to specifically make the Opel Blitz trucks. Which were at the time just a general work truck in high demand. But soon after GM lost control and the plant was used to exclusively make military trucks for the war. But this is the same for any factory at the time.
A lot of this can be explained by the US political attitude to Germany where they kept up positive diplomatic relationships up until the attacks in the Pacific. The large companies like GM didn’t have a direct reason to divest from their ties to Nazi regime, as they weren’t really denounced themselves and still an important trading partner. Their investors would have had protests on a change of course. For GM, Opel was a huge success at the time.
Of course cutting ties and divesting would have been the moral thing to do, but capitalism has no morals… Apple doesn’t mind making products in China today but sanctions on tech are already changing the course for companies like Nvidia, not without lots of protest by their leaders.
Also yes Henry Ford was idolized by Hitler and Ford didn’t mind that one bit.
spend billions on peaceful resolutions and negotiations.
Isn’t that the exact purpose of the UN?
The same body that, despite being members, is being completely ignored by at least half of the combatants in the various shooting wars that are currently in progress.
The same body that the many countries routinely try to discredit or ignore when it’s convenient.
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I agree that diplomacy should be the way forward, but when aggressors actively ignore and try to subvert the entire process, then unfortunately responding to violence with violence becomes the tool of last resort.
That’s the point I was making … if the world decides to invest in war … chances are high that we will just get war
No one is spending billions on peace and everyone is surprised that there is no peace
You cannot invest in peace without also investing in war. Like someone else said, a country with no military is a country with no negotiating power.
Reductio ad absurdum (Latin for “reduction to absurdity”), is the form of argument that attempts to establish a claim by showing that the opposite scenario would lead to absurdity or contradiction.
I never said remove all military or dismantle all military altogether … I said stop investing in so much war or so much military corporations and hardware so as to make only war inevitable.
Right now, the world is spending billions upon billions in just war … while only spending a few million on peace … and then everyone wonders why there is so much war.
Ok I see your point and I can concur. However I don’t think my point counts as reductio ad absurdum, as it still stands on its own.
If most of the world invests in peace, and one nation in war you will still get war.
It makes me sad, but people have and probably always will suck.
War is the worst form of diplomacy, but can be the only solution if the other party has wholly unacceptable proposals. Given the ultimate choice Ukraine and others have is capitulation or war, what would you have them do? Keep in mind that the last time Ukraine was under Soviet rule, little things like Holodomor happened, so capitulation may not be the life-saving option you’d think it would be.
Everyone likes to refer to history 70 or 80 years ago … but ignore recent history from 10, 20 years ago when military forces were encroaching on Russian borders
I don’t like Russia or its authoritarian government … but Ukraine was a preventable conflict but the world chose instead to start and then act surprised that it happened.
Really? What steps could the international community have used? Which ones that they did use do you think were ineffectual? How do we force sovergien countries to be peaceful when they are beating the drums of war?
So the answer is when someone beats the war drum … to be a bigger war drum?
I’ll keep repeating it … if the world wants to spend money on war, no one should act surprised when war occurs.
Wars are also preventable and if conditions are constantly created to force war, war will always occur.
Everyone can name one or two major corporations or companies that create and build military hardware because billions are spent on them … few can name a company or institution that builds and encourages peace because no one spends money on them … is it any wonder that war is so easily frequent in our world?
When someone starts hitting you what do you do?
How did you end up in a situation where someone is hitting you?
We don’t just exist in a world where people will go around hitting each other … we aren’t Neanderthals, this isn’t a thousands years ago.
If we choose to create and live in a world where hitting each other is the only way to communicate … then you’re right, you just hit back.
There is money to be made on war and the owners of this world enjoy watching people hit each other.
Oh, so you don’t answer questions.
@ininewcrow I think the problem is when there is no one on the other side with whom it is possible to engage in reasonable discussion. When the leadership of one side have shown time & time again that they are dishonest, untrustworthy, & not even sufficiently well informed & self aware to know when their cause is struggling, let alone lost.
And when both sides see the other this way, & are unwilling to look at themselves, or to see similarities with the current enemy which might be used as a foundation for peace…
I haven’t worn a poppy for years. Arguments can be made that WWI was an important part of Canadian history as it is essentially the start of our independence, and WWII is always framed as a battle against evil (although allied countries were mostly fighting to prevent invasions of territory, not against the holocaust. Canada turned away Jewish refugees during WWII after all). Remembering these wars for their historical significance is fine.
I really don’t see how any other wars or conflicts that Canadian soldiers have been sent to can be seen as heroic or deserving of honour. Year after year, Rememberance Day and the poppy are less about “Remember the sacrifices of WWI that lead to our independence and to end the atrocities commited by totalitarian governments in WWII” and more US-style hero worship of the military. A military that isn’t used for national defence or to defend the weak and innocent from evil but as a political tool to ensure natural resources from developing nations keep flowing into our ports. I get why it’s necessary, but I don’t think it should be glorified.
We cannot allow genocidal wars to be pressed in the modern world.
You’re aware of what’s going on in Gaza right?
I think in an increasingly multicultural Canada, the white-superiority, Eurocentric, colonialist values and perspectives that Remembrance Day conjures up feel outdated and oversimplified
Yes. And Ethiopia. And Sudan. And Myanmar. Doesn’t change the point dramatically, except that all of the above are usually framed as internal issues rather than external wars of aggression. There’s a legit conversation to be had about increasing peacekeeping forces to diffuse some other conflicts too.
That’s why I was so glad to see more feathers this year at the national ceremony. Honestly, even reconciliation aside it feels more familiar that way, and less like footage from somewhere in Europe.
The idea of a day to mark what happens when we let our guard down is good, but the implementation still needs to evolve.
I was just thinking about this, watching the ceremony. They’re covering it like it’s a royal wedding (Look at the crowd! What does this day mean to you, personally?), not a scheduled reminder that it could all happen again if we don’t learn from our mistakes.
As for Ukraine, they aren’t even asking for foreign troops so I’m more dovish than you I guess. But we should definitely keep sending them whatever they need, and not cut our military budget!!
I agree with defending Ukraine but isn’t the point of “never again” is to not have another war?
No, it is specifically about not having another genocide. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Never_again
I get where you are coming from but I disagree in getting involved like that in Ukraine.
Gaza, though, as tough as it might be politically we should get involved to try to stop fighting in any way. Neither side will get what they want anytime soon without thousands more Israelis and Palestinians dying. If Canadians truly wish to protect our peacemaking legacy this is where we’d act, rather than Ukraine which even if I support them over Russia, our involvement would be for our own and our allies’ benefit than for peace.
we are only marginally involved. We haven’t mobilized.
Stop right there.
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we cannot mobilize against another NATO member
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Ukraine isn’t a NATO member, and sadly our legal obligation is a matter of political debate. We are winning the debate, but it’s slow, and political opponents plan to use this support of a state they don’t value as a means to seize control on the next election
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even our hands-off, here-are-guns involvement is not without complaint and scrutiny.
The truth is, we forgot that Russia rules by its strength and we obviously have no clause about belligerent invasions terminating membership. And while Russia is a.member of NATO, no one will consider invading.
…which is good, as the only thing Russia spent its money on was its military. It’s like America, but with more corruption and less money to throw around.
This proxy war is already too much while it’s also not enough. It’s going to ruin our current leaders and plunge us into a populist nightmare the likes of which we’ve been seeing in America for a decade. Let’s not be more idiots voting without the facts, as we already have enough of those to damn us.
Uhhh, Russia isn’t in NATO… it’s quite literally the enemy of NATO.
The NATO alliance was created so countries could protect one another from Russia’s military. When the USSR still existed, they responded by creating the Warsaw Pact, which consisted of countries on or near their border with Europe. In the time since the USSR collapsed, several former Warsaw Pact countries have joined NATO.
Russia absolutely despises NATO, and always has. Putin has used the expansion of NATO as one of his excuses for invading Ukraine (he claims to see NATO as a threat, but since the NATO treaty is purely defensive, I don’t understand his reasoning there).
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Please don’t engage with trolls, just report them and move on. It makes cleanup much harder.
Post locked while I get through all of it :(