- cross-posted to:
- israelicrimes@lemm.ee
- israelicrimes@lemmy.ml
Aidinthel ( @Aidinthel@reddthat.com ) 122•6 months agoEncouraging Jews to leave “voluntarily” was Hitler’s first step, too. Then when most people don’t want to leave their homes, you justify your escalation by saying you gave them a chance.
queermunist she/her ( @queermunist@lemmy.ml ) 37•6 months agoYeah and back then it was Zionists who collaborated with him to populate Palestine with 60,000 German Jews.
CanadaPlus ( @CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org ) 15•6 months agoIt’s annoying making the comparison derails the conversation so much. Yeah, sure, one of the ethnicities involved happens to be repeating and that sucks, but that’s the one genocide people know stuff about.
Edit: Lol, didn’t expect this to get downvoted. Why?
sndmn ( @sndmn@lemmy.ca ) 4•6 months agoGenocide is funny to you?
CanadaPlus ( @CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org ) 9•6 months agoWhat!? Where did I say that??
I was complaining that you can’t compare the Holocaust to the current situation in Israel-Palestine at all, even when they do the exact same stuff, or a lot of people freak out.
detalferous ( @detalferous@lemm.ee ) 46•6 months agoSo he wants to kill 90% of the populace in a geographical region.
How does anyone deny this is genocide?
- zbyte64 ( @zbyte64@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) English19•6 months ago
I think their goal is to displace 90% into Egypt and kill the rest. Still genocide.
CanadaPlus ( @CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org ) 43•6 months ago“We won’t do genocide, but what about 90% genocide?”
bradorsomething ( @bradorsomething@ttrpg.network ) 39•6 months agoOkay hear me out, what if, after you make sure each person isn’t hamas, you tattoo their arm, and…
Mir ( @Mir@programming.dev ) 17•6 months agoYes and maybe make it trackable, like a number or a barcode, just to make sure
ShaggySnacks ( @ShaggySnacks@lemmy.myserv.one ) English18•6 months agoI believe IBM could help with this.
- shiveyarbles ( @shiveyarbles@beehaw.org ) 33•6 months ago
The US is really fucked up on this. I mean Israel is a tactical ally, but how do you turn a blind eye to genocide?
Scary le Poo ( @Scary_le_Poo@beehaw.org ) 8•6 months agoThe US hasn’t turned a blind eye to it. The US has been exerting pressure for lessened combat operations since the getgo.
Foreign policy is not about morality, it is about power.
There are 3 main powers in that region. Saudi Arabia, Iran and Israel. Right now the US has a lot of influence over both (power). If the US were to just drop Israel, then all of a sudden the US has no more power in the region.
The Israelis do not need us for weapons. Not only do they have their own military industrial complex, there are other 1st world powers who would happily sell arms to Israel for a chance to become the new most powerful influence in the region due to having Iran and Israel under their thumbs.
I swear, Americans are fucking stupid when it comes to how anything works and they have zero desire to learn. It’s no wonder that the US ends up with people like trump.
- shiveyarbles ( @shiveyarbles@beehaw.org ) 27•6 months ago
If you continue to provide funding and weapons to an ongoing genocide, you are 100% complicit. What you are suggesting is that the ends justify the means.
- zbyte64 ( @zbyte64@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) English10•6 months ago
Yeah, we totally reined in their terror by giving them everything they wanted. Biden thinks if he is nice enough they will return in kind. He tends to use the same tactic when negotiating with Republicans 🤦♂️
Scary le Poo ( @Scary_le_Poo@beehaw.org ) 1•6 months agoWhat the fuck are you even talking about? Your comment makes no sense at all.
- zbyte64 ( @zbyte64@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) English6•6 months ago
You talk about how foreign policy is about power and influence - I am saying Biden doesn’t understand how influence works as evidence by him not using his power to influence Israeli policy even though it is leading to a more volatile middle east and lower approval ratings at home. In other words, he is undermining his own influence. But go on and tell us how we’re children for expecting more.
Scary le Poo ( @Scary_le_Poo@beehaw.org ) 1•6 months agoWhat power do you think he has? You do realize that the Israelis do not need to rely on us for military aid, correct? You also do realize that there are a couple other world powers who are not allied with the US who would be very happy to cozy up to Israel which means that they would have much more power and influence in the Middle East because at that point it would be Israel and Iran.
I think you must be at least somewhat naive about just how right wing and authoritarian the Israeli government is.
- zbyte64 ( @zbyte64@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) English3•6 months ago
If the US has no influence over Israel in regards to this conflict than that sounds like a critical policy failure and a huge geopolitical risk.
Edit: I’m curious what potential Israel allies you speak of that are not aligned with the US? Our own allies are distancing themselves from this clusterfuck.
Scary le Poo ( @Scary_le_Poo@beehaw.org ) 4•6 months agoSay it with me. Foreign policy is about POWER, not morality. It is about power, influence, and power coupons.
Jesus, it’s like talking to literal children.
- zbyte64 ( @zbyte64@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) English7•6 months ago
If you don’t see how Israel is undermining America’s soft power then idk what to say.
Scary le Poo ( @Scary_le_Poo@beehaw.org ) 1•6 months agoHaving influence over something doesn’t mean that you control it. The US has exerted heavy influence to attempt to curb the worst of the Israeli impulses (full scale ground operations being one of the successful ones). But that does not mean that the US controls Israel.
Israel is hell bent on repeating every mistake that the US made post 9/11. The latest is the equivalent of the “mission accomplished” banner.
The next mistake(if they make it) is going to be expanding the scope of what they intend to do.
- zbyte64 ( @zbyte64@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) English1•6 months ago
The argument is that we’re not using our strongest influence by virtue of not threatening to withhold arms (even though it would be in US interest to do so to preserve influence in the region). I am not arguing that the US controls Israel like some vassal state.
Scary le Poo ( @Scary_le_Poo@beehaw.org ) 1•6 months agoThose arms you are talking about have already been appropriated by Congress, UNTIL 2028!!!
But I’m guessing that you didn’t know that because it’s a lot easier to sit on social media and wax eloquent about how foreign policy should mirror morality.
Even if we could stop the arms shit, it wouldn’t matter. Israel has it’s own military industrial complex and there are several other countries that would happily trade with Israel to give the US influence over the region a black eye.
Do you understand? Israel does not NEED our stuff. Sure it helps, but you seem to be under the delusion that if we didn’t supply weapons they wouldn’t have any. That is woefully naive and incorrect.
“But why do we give it???”
To which I repeat: Foreign policy is about power and power coupons, not morality. This is the way it is, not the way it should be. Kissinger was a soulless ghoul, but he understood exactly what foreign policy is all about (which is the main reason why most of us hated him with a fiery passion). Nixon should have ensured that he took a long stroll on the deck of a submerged submarine, but alas, missed opportunities.
Maybe one day foreign policy will resemble morality, but that day will not come for a very, very, long time. If ever.
- shiveyarbles ( @shiveyarbles@beehaw.org ) 4•6 months ago
You don’t come off as an intellectual powerhouse buddy
Scary le Poo ( @Scary_le_Poo@beehaw.org ) 2•6 months agoI’m not your buddy, pal.
HorseRabbit ( @HorseRabbit@lemmy.sdf.org ) 2•6 months agoThe power to do what? If it’s not the power to force morally good behaviour then it’s all pointless.
Scary le Poo ( @Scary_le_Poo@beehaw.org ) 1•6 months agoThe United States seeks to maintain influence in the Middle East for several reasons, including geopolitical stability, economic interests, and regional security. The region is vital for global energy resources, and stability in the Middle East is crucial to prevent potential threats such as terrorism and the spread of extremism. Additionally, the U.S. maintains alliances with several countries in the region to promote shared interests and counterbalance regional powers.
jinarched ( @jinarched@lemm.ee ) 22•6 months agoWhat the fuck. Fucking sickos.
phoenixz ( @phoenixz@lemmy.ca ) 20•6 months agoGoebbels really has some crazy ideas there
تحريرها كلها ممكن ( @PanArab@lemmy.ml ) 18•6 months agoIt looks like Zionists were taking notes during the Holocaust
“What we do not understand is that while there were protests against Germany’s defensive action in this field, there was, on the other hand, no willingness to absorb the excess Jewish population emigrating from Germany.”
• Joseph Goebbels, Nazi Minister of propaganda.
NeatNit ( @NeatNit@lemmy.zip ) 12•6 months agoThis idiot doesn’t know when to shut up. This war started when Israel had the worst and most extremist government it’s ever had, there were many protests about it in the first half of 2023. That minister in particular is possibly the craziest of them, and easily the one least able to co-ordinate his statements with the rest of the government. It’s both a PR disaster for Israel and plain misleading information - this is not a policy that Israel has.
Unless I’m mistaken, he’s even been banned from cabinet meetings because of this kind of shit. So please, take everything he says with a mountain of salt.
Disclaimer: I’m Israeli. I know Israel is not handling this war remotely well, but it’s also not guilty of the extreme accusations the internet blames it for.
P.S. mods, if you decide to ban me (as another community did) then at least have the courtesy of informing the rest of the userbase about it, and ideally leave my comment intact. If you just delete and ban every comment that doesn’t uphold a specific viewpoint, you’re just making an echo chamber, and the whole community becomes more extremist by the day.
تحريرها كلها ممكن ( @PanArab@lemmy.ml ) 31•6 months agoDisclaimer: I’m Israeli. I know Israel is not handling this war remotely well, but it’s also not guilty of the extreme accusations the internet blames it for.
It is guilty of genocide, and this is not an internet accusation.
this is not a policy that Israel has.
Yes, it does. It has been stated numerous time, the plan is another Nakba.
Nobel Art ( @nobleart9932@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) 5•6 months agoYeah, he should have kept a lid on it like everyone else at the Wannsee Conference.
flying_sheep ( @flying_sheep@lemmy.ml ) 4•6 months agoThanks. This kind of reality check is very necessary.
janabuggs ( @janabuggs@beehaw.org ) 2•6 months agoI’d honestly love to know more about what it’s like to be an Israeli right now. I’m adamantly pro cease-fire and have always been pro “let people keep their homes” and anti-apartheid, but never anti-Israeli citizen or Palestinian citizen to be fair. In the US we talk a lot about our government being colonizers and how the founding fathers shouldn’t be praised and we try to find ways to honor stolen land, albeit, it feels performative since I certainly can’t just give up my home if someone’s ancestor came back and asked for it. Anyways not to try to point too many fingers, but hopefully just offer a glimpse of my own moral dilemmas that feel impossible, I’m just wondering what the perspective is for you all? Is the segregation discussed? Is the foundation of Israel controversial among Israelis at all?
NeatNit ( @NeatNit@lemmy.zip ) 2•6 months agoI’d honestly love to know more about what it’s like to be an Israeli right now.
The cities and settlements surrounding the Gaza strip are still mostly vacated, and the government is trying to incentivize former residents to go back to their homes, but is doing a very poor job of it. That gets a fair amount of media attention.
What’s on everyone’s mind are the kidnapped civilians who are still being held by Hamas and subject to conditions that only a terrorist group is capable of. AFAIK the red cross still hasn’t been allowed to see to their safety, so we are all in the dark about their state. The traumatic experiences and inhumane abuse shared by those hostages who did return home, do not bode well for the well-being of the remaining hostages.
There is talk about “the day after the war”, what will need to happen, what needs to change, etc. both within Israel and in Gaza, but it’s still far off. Israel doesn’t want to rule over Gaza, but it can’t allow a terrorist group to rule over it either. Hamas and related groups in Gaza have been sending rockets aimed at Israeli civilians for decades and Israel has mostly shrugged it off, with occasional operations of relatively small scale intended to buy a few months or years of peace each time. This system can’t go on anymore after this war, as far as we’re concerned.
In areas of Israel that are far enough away from Gaza, life more-or-less went back to normal, but there’s always the war looming over our consciousness, and the missing soldiers who are currently at the front lines or have fallen. I’m sure life in Gaza is many orders of magnitude worse right now.
I don’t follow much news (I can’t handle it), but from what I do see, there’s not much coverage of the destruction in Gaza. Not nothing, but not much. We are mostly united in knowing that something must be done and Hamas must be vanquished. That’s Hamas, not Gaza. We know that innocent Gazans are just as much victims as the victims of the Oct 7 horrors… I think so, at least. (There have been some attempts to explain that ‘even those not directly active in Hamas did still support Hamas’, but I don’t buy it - and in either case I think those arguments aren’t made to justify genocide, but to give an excuse for the civilians that died as collateral)
Is the segregation discussed? Is the foundation of Israel controversial among Israelis at all?
Foundation of Israel - not really, as far as I’m aware. Israel has a right to exist, and it’s kind of ridiculous to ask the country or its citizens to say that it doesn’t have a right to exist or anything of that sort. Granted, there’s a lot of opinions going around and I can even think of at least one person I know that holds views like that, but when talking about mainstream, I don’t see it. Cries of “from the river to the sea” you hear elsewhere in the world are synonymous with “evict all Jews from this land”, there’s no other way to interpret it. These cries are just not accepted as legitimate in any sense here.
As for the expansion of Israel since its declaration of independence and the constant friction with both Palestinians and neighboring countries - I don’t think that’s getting much attention specifically now (we’re more focused on the here and now), but historically it has almost always been the defining political point of contention that defines what kind of person you are. The thing is, at least from my limited understanding, Israel didn’t one-sidedly make things end up in this situation (for the West Bank in particular). It’s all been failed diplomacy, which failed because the Palestinian identity basically revolves around struggling against the Israeli state, and not allowing even an inch of “Palestine” to be ruled by Israel. There was no possible way to co-exist, but Israel tried anyway, for decades. The current situation is the result of a whole bunch of messy history, and it ended up this way because yes, Israel is stronger than Palestine, and will do what it must to subdue and prevent attacks on it. I don’t like it one bit, but I also don’t see any way out of it. But, I’m not a politician, and my knowledge of history is actually embarrassingly lacking, so my views on this are very much NOT set in stone.
As I said, the whole topic of “what to do with the Palestinians” used to be the center of attention in politics, but in recent years it has stopped being that. The reason is that we’ve given up, as a collective at least. We’ve been at it for over 70 years and are farther than ever to a solution. And from a cold viewpoint, the current situation is ideal for Israel (we thought, before the Oct 7 disillusion) - we have security and confidence that we won’t be attacked.
Worth noting that “segregation” is far from accurate - the West Bank is not Israeli territory, it’s not under its civil control. And like everything else around here - it’s complicated. Anti-Israel propaganda will have you believe “it’s not complicated”, but it really is. The simple, surface-level “Israel is committing genocide” is less than even the tip of the iceberg.
Sorry for the wall of text, please let me know if you’ve even received this reply.
janabuggs ( @janabuggs@beehaw.org ) 1•6 months agoI can 100% tell you that we are consuming completely different media and I am trying very hard to find balanced sources and honestly trying not to over do it because I’m mentally exhausted by the news. I am always a skeptic because I know public media cares more about drama than truth frequently. However, I can say with certainty too many innocent people are dying and it makes me extremely worried about normal folks like you who are so close to this danger. Non-Israeli jews in the states are also turning their backs on the Israeli government… I don’t know what I’m trying to get at other than please be safe and I really wish you well. Thank you for your time.
janabuggs ( @janabuggs@beehaw.org ) 1•6 months agoThank you so much for your response!!!
NeatNit ( @NeatNit@lemmy.zip ) 1•6 months agoI’d love to answer but the mods of this community decided it’d be objectively bad to hear a different point of view
Edit: oh, apparently they only removed my comments without banning me. Didn’t expect this comment to come through. That’s better I guess? But it’s still a recipe for an echo chamber. I’ll reply in a bit.
- S_204 ( @S_204@lemm.ee ) 1•6 months ago
Mods here taking a Reddit approach to turning the conversation into shit. It’s wild to see develop so rapidly, what took years over there.
pezhore ( @pezhore@lemmy.ml ) 9•6 months agoI wonder if he literally meant 100, not 100,000.
some_guy ( @some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org ) 4•6 months agoIt’s time to dismantle the Israeli state.