- cross-posted to:
- leftymemes@lemmy.dbzer0.com
[alt text: a screenshot of a tweet by @delaney_nolan, which says, “Biden/Harris saw this polling and decided to keep unconditionally arming Israel”. Below the tweet is a screenshot from an article, which states: “In Pennsylvania, 34% of respondents said they would be more likely to vote for the Democratic nominee if the nominee vowed to withold weapons to Israel, compared to 7% who said they would be less likely. The rest said it would make no difference. In Arizona, 35% said they’d be more likely, while 5% would be less likely. And in Georgia, 39% said they’d be more likely, also compared to 5% who would be less likely.”]
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They made their decisions and you made yours. If you decided that we’d be better off with Trump, that’s on you. Own it.
Putting Trump in office makes Gaza worse. He’s promised us as much. Maybe you proved a point to the Democrats, and maybe you didn’t. Maybe now they’ll lean even harder to the center. Who knows. That’s a gamble you took, and you made steep sacrifices to make that gamble.
Gambling with someone’s life to make a political point does not make you their ally.
Gentle reminder: changing her stance on the Gaza genocide was the “damned if you do” side of the trap that she didn’t go for.
Gentle idea: maybe think a few moves ahead. Even the conservatives were.
Source please? I’d like to share the poll stats with a friend
No, it can be more than one person’s fault. It’s Harris’s fault, and it’s also the fault of the people who decided fascism was an acceptable alternative to capitalist liberalism.
I’ll remember how this was all Kamala’s fault when Trump starts rounding people up. I’m sure it will bring me great comfort. I’m also sure it will bring great comfort to the people of Palesine because Trump DEFINITELY isn’t going to keep arming Israel, and we know he’s way more susceptible to public pressure than Harris would have been.
Fair point. But Senate also had green candidates. I think in general, you always see the same voting trends between Executive and Legislative branches.
So so so many people keep pointing at Trump and saying “But he’s the worst/we’re all doomed/holy shit you need to vote blue no matter who” and comments about “perfect being the enemy of the good” so we should hold our nose and support Democrats.
I feel like I’m the only person who remembers how hyperbolic we all were about Mitt Romney or John McCain being existential threats to democracy. South Park literally made fun of everybody at the time pointing at how running such a divisive campaign let them distract the public from their real goal of stealing the Hope Diamond (obviously). How many of us would BEG for Romney at the top of the Republican ticket at this point?
So sure, Trump is the threat now. When are we supposed to stop rewarding mediocre neoliberalism then? If it wasn’t 2016 or 2020 or 2024 then when? Trump will eventually die and some new Republican will take his place as the leader of the party. EVERY Republican will be the next existential threat and we’ll be scolded and told to hold our nose yet again and vote for the Democrat. If someone can tell me the “end date” where I don’t have to choose between the lesser of two evils, I’d love to know when that is.
I don’t blame other citizens for voting how they do. Everyone has to decide for themselves their red lines for support and in the privacy of the voting booth who they want to support. I do blame Democratic leadership for not learning a single lesson from 2016 about hand picking candidates and browbeating everyone into thinking that’s OK.
When are we supposed to stop rewarding mediocre neoliberalism then?
When neoliberalism is consistently beating fascism.
I’m sure the trans people whose lives are now in danger will sleep much better tonight knowing that the blood of those Palestinian children who are going to continue dying because Donald Trump has promised not to even try for a ceasefire isn’t on your hands, because you didn’t vote for Kamala Harris.
I hope you’re fucking happy.
I blame the people who voted for trump, personally. I’d be happy to watch the leopards eat their faces, but unfortunately we’re all stuck with them.
This is absolute bullsh1t.
Trump has repeatedly said Netanyahu can do as he pleases, has repeatedly disparaged all Muslims, has repeatedly shown a political kinship with dictatorships.
Biden/Harris were protest targets in spite of it being the entirety of Congress that votes on/gives foreign aid because these protests were propaganda bent on disenfranchising Democrats and nothing else. The protests will wither to nothing now that pants-sh1tter rapist is going to be president.
You were duped. You fell for it. Gaza has zero chance now.
You have to convince people to vote for you, you can’t just rely on them voting against the other candidate. That’s why voter turnout was lower than previous elections.
How many more elections will Democrats have to lose before they’ll lean this lesson?
Not voting for KH & TW is saying that a fully-fascist America is A-OK with you. Full stop. There really isn’t any way you can justify voting otherwise.
I absolutely agree with you 100%. That still doesn’t address the fact that many people were less likely to vote for Harris if she continued to want to arm Israel. The stick of Trump was effective for getting yours and mine vote. Some other people needed the carrot of ending the Gaza Genocide. If they would have done the right thing, they had a chance of motivating those voters.
People had the opportunity to not vote for Harris and still vote for other elected representatives in the senate. Not voting was a better option it seems.
That still doesn’t address the fact that many people were less likely to vote for Harris if she continued to want to arm Israel.
There have always been holocausts going on, somewhere in the world. A lot of times, the US is involved.
For a certain audience, the narrative was that Biden caused inflation and Trump would rescue them and make their economic lives easy. And look at that, they bought it. Even though it was opposite-land bullshit.
For a certain audience, the narrative was that Biden caused the holocaust in Gaza. And look at that, they bought it. There was some validity. But the new thing was that it was hugely important, all over their social media, and Biden was responsible, and it defined his presidency in a way that 100 other things he did failed to do.
It only got presented and spread so widely and presented so singularly as a Democrats-only issue, without acknowledgement that Trump will be ten times worse, a hundred times worse, because that presentation would hurt the Democrats.
There were other narratives in the same way. Immigration, either that Biden was too kind or too mean. Oldness and feebleness. Policing. The truth or falsehood didn’t matter. They were expertly crafted.
And the result? Now, after people bought and acted on them, hook line and sinker?
Buddy just you fucking wait. Gaza will get much worse, of course, but it will barely even register as a major problem, by the time all of this is said and done.
Whoever made the narratives got their fucking money’s worth, and then some.
Edit: It should be said that I think “It’s not the voters’ fault. It’s Harris’s fault that she didn’t earn the votes.” is another of those narratives. You’ve probably seen it a few times today. Why they’re spending effort on pushing that new one, all of a sudden right after the election, I have no idea. It barely matters. But if you take a step back and think, it’s a pretty weird thing to decide is important to say, if you’re trying to do anything other than further depress support for anything left that’s in power, and soothe the consciences of people who might have been involved in this catastrophe from the voter side.
Thanks to the duped non-voters, it’s likely that they won’t have to worry about that.
Trump has repeatedly said Netanyahu can do as he pleases, has repeatedly disparaged all Muslims, has repeatedly shown a political kinship with dictatorships.
Right, and Harris shouted down protesters and wouldn’t denounce genocide. So if you are voting on this one single issue, you probably decide not to vote for either candidate, because they both cross your red line. However, most voters aren’t single-issue voters, and Harris didn’t provide much else in the way of policy to excite voters. Just vibes-based messaging and the occasional neoliberal economic policy.
So I repeat: Trump’s win is Harris’s fault. She had all the cards, and she flubbed it because she didn’t want to piss off her billionaire donors.
I feel like you as someone with pronouns in his bio should probably know that there are issues that the 2 available options differ in. So don’t try to wash the blood of trans people, women and other minorities in the US off your hands. You’re going to have to live with that because it ain’t coming off
Trump has repeatedly said Netanyahu can do as he please
So has Harris.
Biden/Harris were protest targets in spite of it being the entirety of Congress that votes on/gives foreign aid…
It is the Secretary of State who brokers deals. Congress follows the Executive branches lead for MOST funding. The Secretary of State answers to the President and Vice President.
You were duped. You fell for it. Gaza has zero chance now.
They never had a chance. You made sure of that. And, I’M SPEAKING HERE, all of the people in this echo chamber are to blame. We had a key opening when Biden was ousted to make change happen, to demand an open convention, to force the party left, to force a viable candidate, but instead, all of you latched on to Harris’ dick and went to war, not with Republicans (you guys apparently love Republicans, Love them Cheney endorsements, want em in the cabinet), you went to war with undecideds and pushed them third party.
This is your fault.
Edit: And even after the loss, the clowns here that call themselves mods are deleting my comments because people are actually upvoting them now, and it makes them salty.
Biden/Harris fucked up on more than just Gaza. Biden took action to address inflation, but Americans have continued to feel like their economic situation is worse off than it was 4 years ago. This is because grocery store and gas prices remain inflated, while the average American’s income has stagnated. In short: corporate greed. Biden has done little to address corporate greed, and Harris did little to assure Americans that she would combat corporate greed or make Americans feel better about their personal finances. All evidence suggested that she would be even cozier with the billionaires than Biden was. Not hard to see why people stayed home when they felt like their choices were a billionaire and a billionaire-sympathizer.
In short, STOP BLAMING YOUR ALLIES. Trump’s win is HARRIS’S FAULT.
Mate you are not our ally
Fuck that, I’m blaming every single person that didn’t vote for Harris
Hard to see people as allies who are willing to let the world burn because the only other option wasn’t perfect. The campaign fucked up, for sure, but every voter that stayed home shares blame in this.
Same. I can’t see you as allies if you throw trans people, immigrants, disabled people and homeless people under the bus to protest a policy that will be even worse under the opposition.
“Don’t blame your allies.”
Proceeds to blame his allies, picking out the one wedge issue which the opponents used to greatest effect to split the left in this election.
Nothing in particular that would help anyone pick up the pieces, or figure out what happens now or what to do.
And Trump will be better for Palestinians how exactly? Anyone who prefers inane grandstanding instead of picking the lesser evil (no matter the topic) is a moron. That’s how politics work. The ideal candidate doesn’t exist and will never exist. If you ever come across one who 100% mirrors every single one of your opinions, get your head examined.
Edit: Also, every single credible poll out there indicates that American voters - idiotically - picked Trump due to their dissatisfaction with the economy. Middle Eastern wars were not high on the list of priorities for most voters.
It was high enough on their list to cause her to lose.
And taking people’s votes for granted worked how exactly?
Voter turn out was much lower than 2020 and 2016 just like this poll predicted.
Voter turn out was much lower than 2020 and 2016 just like this poll predicted.
Say what? Voter turnout in 2016 was 60%, in 2020 it was 67%, and in 2024 it was 65%.
This exactly
Especially considering trump’s opinion on them and Israel’s stance on the election (wanting a trump victory) those should have been major red flags about a trump victory if you cared about Palestinians.
Voting the lesser evil is often how politics works. You pick the candidate you yu hate the least and try to mobilize more people in the future to get the policies you want.
Some background on why exactly Israelis were unhappy with Biden/Harris:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-shows-israelis-massively-favor-trump-over-harris-in-us-election/
The Israeli public should have realized that Biden actually helped them by not agreeing to every one of Netanyahu’s whims, yet here we are.
I’ve seen far too many people parrot uneducated talking points like “America is arming Israel unconditionally”, which has been very much not the case under Biden. Why are people ignoring that he, just to name one example, withheld arms deliveries and threatened more restrictions unless more aid shipments were allowed into Gaza and the humanitarian situation there improved? I’m generally pro-Israel, even though I detest Netanyahu, I believe that the wars against Iran’s proxies are justified (Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis all attacked first without provocation and none of them are anything other than murderous terrorist groups), but I have no issues with these kinds of demands.
I fear that without Biden/Harris, the sparring match between Israel and Iran might get much more heated than it is already, potentially even escalating into an all-out war. Trump has the potential to cause a great deal of instability in the entire region (which would impact the rest of the world as well) and dramatically increase the suffering of ordinary Palestinians, Lebanese and Israelis (as well as potentially Iranian civilians as well) by antagonizing Iran, by removing demands from the Israeli government to improve the humanitarian situation in Gaza, by performing stupid stunts similar to his administration’s recognition of Jerusalem as Israeli territory (which will only inspire terrorist attacks and hostile acts from Iran), pulling back on pressure on the Houthis (because Putin might demand it), etc. pp.
World politics are messy, but at least under Biden, one could always assume that there was a reasonable, experienced politician surrounded by knowledgeable experts trying their best. They didn’t always succeed and even where they did, the results were often imperfect, because we are not living in a perfect world, but there was a certain amount of reliability that one could count on. The second Trump term on the other hand will be a severely cognitively declining Trump surrounded by sycophant yes-men stumbling his way through and creating a new idiotic crisis every week, this time without the kind of “old-school” Republicans in key positions that prevented Trump from following his worst instincts the last time around. This applies to both the current wars in the Middle East and every other aspect of foreign and domestic policy.
you don’t have to convince me, friend. The fact is, winning a national election involves building a coalition with people that you don’t see eye-to-eye with 100%. The Dems don’t have a great coalition to begin with - if they win their highly-educated base and nobody else, they lose the election 100% of the time. They have to win over other people, mostly the very few groups of undecided voters. And in this election, it was clear that one of the few undecided groups available were Arab-Americans that cared a whole lot about what has been happening on the West Bank. And Harris did fuck-all to court those voters, so they decided to stay home.
Arab-Americans
0.639% of the US population. This is a tiny minority of no relevance to American politics. Trump has 51% of popular votes already, not that this matters, because the districts that carry Trump to victory have few voters with this kind of background. Arab Americans could not have changed the outcome of this election, even if 100% had voted for Harris.
Okay, how about the 34% of voters in PA as mentioned in the OP? Or the black Americans who said Gaza was important to them?
The quote is deliberately misleading by leaving out that they were only asking Democrats and independents. It also doesn’t mention that it (leading questions and all) was commissioned by the Institute for Middle Eastern Understanding Policy Project, which is a self-proclaimed pro-Palestinian group that opposed protections of Jewish Americans from antisemitism. Hardly an unbiased entity.
The war against Hamas ranks 15th among all issues to American voters. It’s not entirely unimportant, but don’t kid yourself by making the unfounded claim that it had any significant influence on this election.
2.1% of Michigan, and Harris could really use an extra 2.1% in Michigan right now.
Not really, without Pennsylvania Michigan doesn’t matter unless nearly every other swing state goes for her, and they don’t look like that’s even a possibility.
126k Arab-Americans living in PA. As of reporting right now, Harris is losing PA by 152k votes. Obviously this doesn’t clearly indicate that this single issue would swing the election in her favor, but I wouldn’t call that “a tiny minority of no relevance to American politics”.
And the Jewish voting population of PA is more than three times that. Now, that hardly means that they’ll all vote for Isreal, but it does mean that how that group breaks has a far more outsized impact and why Haris was focused so much on things that both sides can generally agree with like conditional aid.
I would have much preferred an actual hardline leftist stance of course, but at the end of the day Gaza does not seem to have played a significant part in this election.
Sure, but I would argue a much larger chunk of that Jewish voting population is firmly in the Democratic base, and may have voted for her either way. Only one party is supporting antisemitism, after all.
That 0.639% of the population actually has a lot of them in a critical swing state that helped Biden win 2020. Harris lost Michigan by less than 85K votes, they could have made the difference.
I steadfastly refuse to accept an apology on behalf of single-issue voters. Those abstentions and/or third party protest votes got us here. Anyone who refused to coalesce around (or at least hold their nose and vote for) the biggest “not Trump” candidate was failing to see or even acknowledge the bigger picture and larger threat. And now we all have to pay for that.
The electoral votes in a state go to the single candidate with the most votes. “Not Trump” was not a candidate. Furthermore, a third party candidate was never going to win. So, I will absolutely blame these so-called “allies” as I find them to be worse than the people who voted for Trump (at least they were honest about what they were doing).
I sincerely hope there is a future election where they have learned something from this. In the mean time, good luck everyone.
Third party voters didn’t change a single state.
In the Weimar Republic, the Social Democrats (SPD) were the largest party as late as 1930, and had control thanks to a coalition with centrists.
In 1931, the Communists of Germany (KPD) – who had long taken offense at the compromises of the SPD – caucused with the Nazis to topple the Prussian government and remove the SPD from power, believing that Nazi rise would accelerate the collapse of capitalism and would trigger a “German October,” a proper communist revolution that would eliminate the Nazis and solve the shortcomings of the SPD.
On April 1, 1933, the Executive Committee of the Communist International stated:
Despite the fascist terror, the revolutionary upturn in Germany will inexorably grow. The masses’ defense against fascism will inexorably grow. The establishment of an openly fascist dictatorship, which has shattered every democratic illusion in the masses and is liberating the masses from the influence of the Social Democrats, is accelerating the tempo of Germany’s development towards a proletarian revolution.
They were… incorrect. Their gamble cost 85 million lives, and the eventual collapse of the Soviet Union can be traced back to the knock-on effects of the war. Accelerationism is creating a monster to defeat an enemy you cannot, then being startled to discover you can’t defeat the monster either, and then blaming your original enemy for the product of your own hubris. No matter how you justify it, no matter what issues drive you, refusing to find common ground and build coalitions against the fascists helps nobody but the fascists.
most of the people you have probably argued with online about Harris and genocide probably did in fact hold their nose and vote for Harris. The people that stayed home were young people and Arab-Americans that have become disillusioned with the Dems, and the genocide was just the last straw. Many people who voted for Biden 4 years ago have found that their economic situation is worse than it was 4 years ago. Harris did little to convince people that her policy would be substantially different from Biden’s. Most of her campaign’s messaging was vibes-based shit like “coconut-pilled” and “we all need to heal” and “Madam President”. In the rare instance that she talked economic policy, it was clear that she would be like Biden, except with more neoliberal cozying up to corporations.
The people I know who are plugged into politics simply sucked it up and voted for Harris, because they are realistic about things. If you are following the news like that, it is obvious that Trump is worse in every way conceivable. Most Americans are busy, poorly-educated, and not that plugged into politics. They get their news from Facebook or TikTok. For those people, it is the candidate’s job to bring them on-side. Harris failed at that, plain and simple.
How about instead of blaming the people that Harris failed to convince, we talk about how we can invite those people back into our coalition? Personally, I’m ready to throw the Democratic party in the bin and start something new.
most of the people you have probably argued with online about Harris and genocide probably did in fact hold their nose and vote for Harris
Did you?
I did, absolutely. I’m much more suspicious of the older, more Centrist people who told me they didn’t think America was “ready to elect a woman”. I suspect that most of them really meant they weren’t ready, and sat out.
I apologize for nothing. I didn’t vote for genocide, the stripping of trans rights, the building of cop cities, the placement of Republicans in the candidate, increased hostilities on the border. I have nothing to apologize for.
You, on the other hand, voted for all of those things and STILL lost. Why? Because those are right wing policies, and Republicans are right wing. If the policies are right wing, the Republicans win. That’s how its always been. Not that hard to wrap your brain around.
We painstakingly spelled it out for you in slow motion for a year, and you kept your head lodged firmly up your master’s ass.
So quite the opposite, I wouldn’t accept the apology you lack the self awareness to extend me.
If everyone who voted for Harris voted for 3rd Party instead, the Electoral College shows Trump still would have won.
I went third party.
Frankly, with what I have seen, I find it hard to believe that Stein didn’t even get 1% of the vote. Massive organizations went all in on Green. Anyway.
That said, you need to remember that for every disenfranchised Democrat who voted third party, 2-5 disenfranchised Democrats simply didn’t show up.
Why is that?
Because instead of spending a year pushing the DNC left and going to war with Republicans, all the Blue MAGAs went after undecideds and berated them into apathy.
My reputation points on this site are -391. Why? Because I spent the past year calling out that the Biden/Harris neo-conservative policies were going to disenfranchise Democrats and win Trump the election.
What response did I get? Overwhelmingly I was told that Biden had a perfect presidential record, his age wasnt a big deal, he was going to the general election, and he was definitely going to win. Then when everyone who piled up on me ended up wrong about that, and I continued to say we could not accept Harris, we needed to get someone who would court people on the Left, not someone who would court Republicans, all I got bombarded with is “BuT TrUmP!”
Counting still isnt quite done yet, but Google says we are at 140,999,052 votes. The adult population of the United States is estimated at 335,893,238.
The majority of this country does not support Trump.
The majority of this country had noone to vote for, and were berated into silence by Blue MAGA.
If we had an actual Left wing candidate, they would have dominated. Just like they always do. Because America is a Left wing country. We just cant get our elected representatives to respect that. They insist on being Right wing.
I would agree, and do to an extent, but everyone also could have voted to not have a Republican senate, and skipped the Presidential vote.
I sincerely hope there is a future election where they have learned something from this. In the mean time, good luck everyone.
Given you’re expecting an apology instead of giving one, nothing was learned apparently.
this is where i’m at. Maybe instead of loudly shouting for months that people should just get over the genocide and hold their nose and vote for Harris, Harris and the Dems should have been working to convince Americans that she would actually work on the issues that people care about? Americans are feeling like things keep getting more expensive and while their wages stay the same - what was Harris doing to address that? What was she suggesting that didn’t feel like a band-aid on the problems with our top-heavy economy? Some stayed home because of the genocide, but more than that, Americans just weren’t convinced that Harris would do anything to improve their economic situation.
Americans just weren’t convinced that Harris would do anything to improve their economic situation.
Why would they? She never proposed anything specific AFAIK except like 1 week before the election after early voting was already over. If she hadn’t avoided taking any policy positions except unconditional aid to israel, lower proposed tax rates for the rich than even Biden was proposing, continued fracking, no improvements to healthcare, and more lethal military/border while avoiding talking about abortion for months, maybe people would have reason for some hope for improvement.
How many Americans know about proposals about things like tax credits for parents or plan to expand medical care coverage under medicare (or was it medicaid?) to at-home care except the small percent who follow that kind of news.
