In familiar predicament for famously challenging client, multiple Florida lawyers decline to take Trump’s case, people familiar with the matter say.

      •  ritswd   ( @ritswd@beehaw.org ) 
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        471 year ago

        I could be wrong, but my understanding is that this is not the actual problem that is keeping lawyers away.

        Many freelancers are ok to get paid and do their best work for customers who will then destroy that work and shoot themselves in the foot. It’s frustrating, but as long as you get paid, after all it’s the customer’s problem. Lawyers are the same, you can find a number of them who won’t mind.

        But here my understanding of what happened was that Trump made his lawyer sign a document where he personally committed to have checked everywhere and there were no documents left, all the while Trump was lying to him and there absolutely were hidden documents. So if that lawyer had kept defending Trump, it could have come across as him being in on the lie to the feds, and being liable to the same crimes.

        A lot of lawyers will be glad to take hard-earned money from frustrating clients, but won’t be keen to get themselves in actual legal trouble.

        • The common joke from the other place was MAGA stood for make attorneys get attorneys. It’s one thing to get paid in exposure, but it’s alright another thing to get “paid” in legal exposure. As an attorney what do you do? Can you really include a weasel statement in every filing saying “this is what he told me, I have no idea if it’s true but it’s it’s not then it’s not my ass”?

          Trump’s built a reputation as being a hard client to represent. Even worse is that Trump attorneys have had some notably batshit crazy examples that makes it challenging to one’s reputation to get lumped in with. Good attorneys have had to quit their firms in order to represent Trump.

          Heck, the current vacancies are because they saw what they were up against and noped out. It’s like if a place has 1.2 stars on Glassdoor, are you really gonna risk your career and jump ship to them?

          • Even beyond that, Trump’s known for not paying his staff unless he’s forced to, so some of attorneys literally got paid in exposure. The prospect of not being paid makes him an even more risky client to take on, and I wouldn’t be completely shocked if at this point he ended up with a public defender.

          •  ritswd   ( @ritswd@beehaw.org ) 
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            21 year ago

            100% agreed with everything there, except for the last paragraph, because it’s a question I’ve asked lawyers before (about representing a clearly losing case). What I was told is that a lawyer’s job (unless they’re paid on commission like personal injury lawyers) is not to win the case, but to accurately represent the case so the whole system works as fairly as it can. Basically, it’s to make sure that people don’t get a punishment because “the king decided so” without the actual situation being looked at, as used to be the case. So, when you represent a pure scum bag who clearly eats babies, it’s fine, because when they get locked up, you did your part in making sure they get there because they did what they did and for no other subjective reason.

            Obviously “representing accurately and fairly” doesn’t work when Trump intentionally misleads his lawyers and puts them in legal hot water, which is the point you make higher and which I wholly agree with. Why would a lawyer want that kind of risk for themselves?

        •  vinniep   ( @vinniep@beehaw.org ) 
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          141 year ago

          This looks a likely a big part of it, and then we also have reports from MSNBC that at least some of the evidence being presented against him came from one of his lawyers. It could have been a former lawyer and not one of the two that recently resigned, but if it was one of these two they would have to resign or risk personal legal consequences.

          Trump seems to have taken the view that plotting illegal things with his lawyer is smart due to attorney client confidentiality (see Cohen), not understanding that confidentiality specifically does not protect discussions related to new crimes. No one can force your attorney to disclose that you told him you were guilty, but if you ask them to help you suppress evidence or intimidate a witness, nothing stops the attorney from turning you in, and they have reasons to do just that as you’ve just made them complicit in your new crime and that is not protected by privilege.

      • Also, the evidence is very damning. This will be a hard case to win for Trump. Do you want to be the lawyer that lost the case that sent Trump to jail? I mean, I would love to be that lawyer but I’m not a lawyer so I don’t care about my reputation

      •  matzah   ( @matzah@lemmy.one ) 
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        91 year ago

        I don’t think being attached to Trump’s name is worth it for most attorneys, even for “history” since they’re on the wrong side of it and also not getting paid. Being in the books isn’t very much worth it if you’re also broke and in jail with your client.

      • The Venn diagram of lawyers that see this as good press for themselves and the lawyers that have the experience and record to work a case of this magnitude has an exceedingly slim overlapping area at this point. We’ve seen very good lawyers come and go from his team when he seemed eccentric but able to be represented and as that veil lifted the talent pool has shrunk. I’m not ragging on the people that agree to represent him - no matter the person or crime, they are entitled to competent representation and someone has to do it - but several of them have just been completely out of their depth.

  •  Voodoo   ( @Voodoo@beehaw.org ) 
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    441 year ago

    Thanks for gifting the WaPo article. Interesting stuff. Will he choose the scorched earth defense or the “flip one jurist” strategy. My guess is the former. He can’t help himself.

    •  False   ( @False@lemmy.world ) 
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      1 year ago

      He had plenty of opportunities to give the documents back and either say “oops, how’d that get there” or even do something outrageous like return it and then try to blame it on Obama, but instead he chose to repeatedly double down on “the rules don’t apply to me”.

  • I don’t imagine this will happen to Trump, but really what happens if you can’t find get a lawyer to represent you. Not because you can’t afford one. But because none will take you on as a client!

    The poor public defender that would get that case…

    • Your honor, some would say not honored, as the rightful greatest president of America, I’m declaring Martian law. As ruler of Mars me and my sons Deimos and Phobos Jr can’t be judged this court under maritime law. Over ruled, sustained, Make Mars Great Again!

    • The last few big name lawyers he hired required a massive retainer before they agreed to represent him, so I don’t think that’s the issue. It’s probably more about no lawyer wanting to put their reputation on the line since he is notoriously difficult client, who often doesn’t follow the advice of legal counsel but then turns around and blames them when his case inevitably tanks.

    • Did you read the indictment? If not, you should. It’s not long, and it’s easily digestible. They make a very solid case that Trump knowingly, intentionally held onto some of the most sensitive national security documents that we have, knew he wasn’t allowed to have them, lied about having them, and tried to hide them even from his own lawyers. Meanwhile, he had them stored in some of the least secured places imaginable.

      So what do you think the feds should do? Don’t you think not holding someone accountable for that is terrible? And you realize they used a special counsel for the investigation - that’s a role specifically designed to be independent from any political bias or manipulation.

    •  mustyOrange   ( @mustyOrange@beehaw.org ) 
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      1 year ago

      Dude he stole highly, highly classified material, didn’t give it back when asked, lost some it, and had it stored in a bathroom.

      That’s far beyond politically charged. Read the indictment. Not all charges brought to politicians are theater. This is absolutely one of those times

    •  ImFresh3x   ( @ImFresh3x@sh.itjust.works ) 
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      1 year ago

      1)Read the indictment. There is a tape where he breaks the law and then acknowledges that’s it’s illegal and proceeds to break the law more. That single law has a sentencing guideline of 10 years.

      https://d3i6fh83elv35t.cloudfront.net/static/2023/06/trump-indictment.pdf

      2)special council is insulated from AG and WH

      3)the judge is a trump appointee

      4)It doesn’t set a precedent for shit. He broke the law. He will have his day in court.

    • He’s a former president. Obviously it’s going to be politically charged, that’s unavoidable. But what’s the alternative, you just get away with crimes because you ran a country once? It’s not as if Biden personally ordered his arrest…

      •  cryball   ( @cryball@sopuli.xyz ) 
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        1 year ago

        Obviously they should account for the feelings a large group of people that might be taken back by everything that is happening. Or maybe the suspected should just ensure that nuclear secrets aren’t left laying around willy nilly :)

    • What would unbiased accountability look like to you? If the roles were reversed, Trump would be shouting “Lock him up!” in front of crowds every day. No one is doing this to him now (except in jest), because it’s expected that his trial be fair.

      Read the full indictment. It’s clear he understood what he was doing was illegal and he didn’t care, and it’s clear he was aware it was not in the country’s best interest. He was given many chances to make it right and failed to do so. He’s been treated more fairly than he’d have done to his political opponents.

      He needs to be held accountable. He put himself above the country, and it can’t happen like this again. If a federal trial in front of a red state jury isn’t fair, I don’t know what would satisfy you.

    •  Jode   ( @Jode@midwest.social ) 
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      401 year ago

      Trump is neither Merrik Garland’s nor Jack Smith’s “political opponent”. The DOJ is supposed to be an independent entity that does not take direction from the president. Conservatives seem to forget that because of the way Donny Double Indictments and Bill Barr ran the DOJ. Donald did crimes, this one is catching up with him. Yall need to hang up your jersey’s eventually…

    • They feds gave him a massive amount of opportunity to remedy the issue and has not been charged at all in any way for anything that he gave back. It’s only the stuff that he retained after over a year of lying and refusing for which he’s being charged. They practically broke their backs twisting around and trying to be as accommodating as possible to give him every possible chance, vastly vastly more patience than if literally anybody else on the planet had done the same, and still he didn’t hand it back.

      Imagine if he walked out of Target with a TV he didn’t pay for, but instead of tackling him or grabbing it they sat there watching as he loaded into is car. They sent him letters as he had people over and told everyone that he got it for free.

      Seriously, Trump had classified marking envelopes on display at the bar in Mar-a-lago. We know for a fact he was showing documents to people like the Discord guy. He stole nuclear secrets. He stole national defense information. None of the crimes he’s been charged with even require the documents to be explicitly classified, it’s enough that the sensitive nature of the documents is sufficient to make possessing them a crime. And yet he kept them by the shitter.

    •  A1kmm   ( @A1kmm@lemmy.amxl.com ) 
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      321 year ago

      The other option is the disintegration of rule of law into rule by law, where rule is used by the powerful as a weapon to attack ordinary people, but they themselves are above the law.

      The Roman Republic had a term for someone who is placed above the law to achieve a specific purpose with high priority (like holding an election): dictator. The office of dictator was rarely given out, and only for a limited period of time and for a specific purpose, because people were scared of abuse of the power of being above the law. When Julius Caesar consolidated enough political power to get whatever office he wanted, he chose dictator - and he literally brought down the republic, and tarnished the term ‘dictator’ to the extent that those that followed him chose to use the office of Imperator (later Emperor) to describe what they do instead of dictator.

      So should a political candidate who lost an election but is running again be given the same powers as a dictator in the Roman Republic? And be allowed to act with absolute impunity? I’d argue no, if they break the law they should be held to the same standards as everyone else. Obviously, he should be given a fair trial, and all the usual protections to ensure that he is only convicted of things he actually did though.

    • I think it would set an extremely bad precedent if we made it that you can never arrest or try former presidents. Being able to try and hold the president to justice brings us closer to the national ideal of the president being a servant of the people, allowing them to act with legal impunity would bring us closer to the president being a dictator or a king.

    •  cryball   ( @cryball@sopuli.xyz ) 
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      191 year ago

      Obviously the trial is going to be charged, as what is happening is unprecedented. Just because it’s charged doesn’t mean that it is driven by one party party wanting to wipe out their opposition.

      In a country with proper separation of power, the juridical system is generally considered independent from the political executive branch. Obviously US has some exceptions to that rule with some judge appointments and such made by government officials, but generally the rule holds true.

      • Well no but I am concerned that is will become a pattern. Trump has already stated that he will prosecute biden if he is reelected. I doubt he is going to be reelected but its possible a republican controlled Congress should decide to take biden to court.

        I obviously don’t support policially charged trials but some conservatives do

        • Idk, from my point of view this looks like a result of the DOJ noticing they were missing classified documents and, after attempting to get them back via the usual means aking official requests, they had no choice but to initiate legal action in order to get them back.

          Honestly, I doubt the current government had much involvement of at all in this case. Every previous president after receiving official requests for documents in their possession has returned said documents, trump is the first to not do so, and to actively (according to evidence) obstruct the DOJ from regaining said documents.

          More likely the politically charged situation, and the current widening political divide has actually made it harder to prosecute this case - One wrong or hasty move at the wrong time and you’ve got the potential for a even worse repeat of Jan 6th on your hands.

          Trying to prosecute a case where the defendant has built a cult of personality around himself is incredibly difficult and infuriatingly so, as the people that make up that cult believes everything said defendant says, and refuses to look at the facts even if they’re right in front of them with blaring sirens and flashing lights, doing an Irish jig.

    • Laws don’t care about biases. He didn’t break the law because he was Republican, he broke the law because he’s a moron. And then he said it on tape. And also on that tape, he said he was breaking the law, and explained how he was doing it.

      The simple solution for not getting arrested by political opponents is…don’t break the law. I do it every day and I’m yet to be arrested.