Don’t wanna be that guy but this article is a tad bit misleading. 13 euros for a plane ticket is an anomaly and probably due to governments funding airlines to encourage tourism to their countries.
That said, a couple hours on a rickety Ryanair for <13 euros beats buying a bunch of train tickets and the stress involved. Downside is missing out on getting to stop in some cool places and see some pretty sights with comfy leg room. (Also trains are more efficient due to the amount of people boarding)
Nah, cheap flight tickets are not an anomaly. Not the norm, perhaps. But at any given time you could easily find plane tickets for less than 50 EUR, which is less than you’ll ever pay for an international train journey.
I mean it really depends on where you want to go and what kind of (how much) luggage you want to carry. A couple of years ago I flew to Stockholm from Berlin. Plane ticket plus luggage price was around 75€ or so. On the way back I took the train. 65€, unlimited luggage (I didn’t need to throw away my cooking gas) and a really nice landscape on the way back, including a ferry ride.
My point is that the cheapest flights are currently always cheaper than the cheapest train rides - not that plane travel is always less expensive.
It was certainly a click bait headline. But still a fair point that train fare averages are double airfare. Although we have to question, did Greenpeace throw out the outliers before compiling the stats?
€13 is cheap for Ryanair, but it’s not some absurd anomaly. I went from Ireland to Italy for €18, and took a bunch of other flights for <€30.
Booked a flight from Vienna to Tallinn for 16€ quite literally 5 minutes ago.
I think the discussion is just misdirected: There are distances, even within Europe, that are so large a train won’t do it, no matter how cheap it is. Most people will not sit in a train for 10 hours when they can fly for 1 1/2. It turns out, going 800 km/h in a straight line is just more convenient. Who knew.
Now, do I think trains should be cheaper? Yes, most fares do not reflect at all the level of service you receive.
Do I think inter-european rail connections will ever catch on? lolno, bar the few train aficionados.
There are really only two options: Either we all stay within a radius in our lives that resembles that of let’s say the 1960’s - or we fly.
I’m not very bullish on long-term potential for passenger train travel, but I don’t know if I’d reduce it to “flight or 1960s travel radius” either. A few points:
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High speed rail doesn’t push the radius out as far as air travel does, but it does extend it. The biggest issue for HSR, I think, is not passenger time, but cost – if passenger train travel is already uncompetitive on price, faster train infrastructure is considerably more expensive relative to that. I am not sure whether that cost is fundamental or not – maybe it’s possible to find ways to build HSR infrastructure more-cheaply.
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Self-driving vehicles. Some of the objections I’ve seen to use of sleeper trains – one way to mitigate the issues of trains being slower than planes is by having travel happen when asleep – is people who dislike having shared sleeping environments. Maybe it’s possible to do, oh, a self-driving car with a sleeper trailer or something like that.
All traffic is expensive.
Germany alone subsidises it’s flight sector with billions of € by making kerosene tax free, there’s no VAT on international flights, etc.
The total direct cost of German road traffic to the public are estimated at 70 billion € per year, of which only 25 are being paid by people driving cars.
A couple of notes;
if passenger train travel is already uncompetitive on price, faster train infrastructure is considerably more expensive relative to that. I am not sure whether that cost is fundamental or not – maybe it’s possible to find ways to build HSR infrastructure more-cheaply.
Fair, but it’s not like passenger rail is uncompetitive when taking everything into account. Cars are subsidised far more, and both cars and planes have far more negative externalities (i.e. real future costs) than trains. Plus, there’s a very real cost to being dependent on oil states for the bulk of our transportation options, one that has somewhat been demonstrated by the war in Ukraine.
I do agree on your point about high speed rail compared to normal rail, although I do think there is a lot of value in them being top of the line services to make rail as a whole more attractive.
Self-driving vehicles. Some of the objections I’ve seen to use of sleeper trains – one way to mitigate the issues of trains being slower than planes is by having travel happen when asleep – is people who dislike having shared sleeping environments. Maybe it’s possible to do, oh, a self-driving car with a sleeper trailer or something like that.
Cars straight up suck and are less efficient than trains. Why you’d think of a car with a caravan but not, idk, private sleeping compartments in trains, is beyond me.
Well, 1960s had cars and people were using these for long distance travel due to the lack of other options. My dad, for example, drove his shitty car from Berlin to the south of Spain and back.
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I think the issue may be split in two - for some, the younger and poorer, cost is the limiting factor - they are willing to put up with longer travel times but cannot stem the additional financial burden. For older and more settled people (which I am transitioning to slowly) and my parents are in, comfort trumps price at all times. They will take the fastest, most direct route. They would fly even if it cost 2-3x more (which, for them, it does since they will take the premium airlines over budget).
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Going back to individual vehicles is, in my opinion, not a great solution. I am hopeful that we will find ways to have short distance air travel use more green options (electrical?) in the near-to-mid future, therefore eliminating the need to curb the undoubtably huge demand.
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Yeah that’s the unfortunate side. Given the situation it makes way more financial sense for the consumer to take the plane ticket unless they enjoy the novelty of a long train journey.
Also had a situation recently where just a 1.5 hour train trip became 6 hours due to it breaking down in a town with few bus stops and no other trains, probably due to summer tourism. It would be nice if the rail infrastructure were even further expanded and tickets made cheaper to make it more competitive.
Yeah 13€ for a flight is like my current cross Germany train ticket for 15.99€, super rare and not a honest discussion basis.
13 euros for a plane ticket is an anomaly and probably due to governments funding airlines to encourage tourism to their countries.
Governments subsidizing airlines over rail is one of the criticisms levied in the article:
The group has urged governments on the continent to introduce long-term, affordable “climate tickets” for public transport, including cross-border ones. They suggest these should be funded by a “phase-out of airline subsidies and a fair taxation system based on CO2 emissions.”
Completely crazy. I can’t wait till they fix this.
Luckily we’re on the right track with Germany’s 49€ ticket. Now these types of tickets just need to spread and maybe one day we’re gonna have a unified EU ticket.
Sure, but most train journeys you would replace a flight with are way too long and arduous with the 49€ ticket because that only allows regional trains and not the high speed IC/ICE trains. Those are the ones that need to get cheaper if we want people to stop flying.
If we had an inter-european ticket it could be more expensive and allow you to take high speed trains. It would be silly to give it the same restrictions that the German ticket has.
Yeah I’m just saying there are already flight journeys within Germany that could be replaced by train and there the same problem applies. I wasn’t suggesting that a hypothetical European ticket would have similar restrictions.
Sure hope so. Meanwhile, in The Netherlands, we’re raising train ticket prices once again.
Recently, I was thinking about a hypothetical trip to the Netherlands and looking for the train prices. I was suprised how expensive they really are. As I understand it, a day ticket costs more than the DeutschlandTicket for a month, and relatively even more if you consider discounted DeutschlandTickets.
It’s really unfortunate yeah. The other day I saw some tips on saving money by booking international train tickets via the foreign rail operator vs NS International. Saving 50% on your ticket price was pretty much guaranteed.
Don’t worry, they ‘ll sort it so airline tickets are as expensive as train tickets shortly.
Monkey paw: they rise the price of plane tickets so both cost the same
This article is a load of bullshit. They basically only compared train prices from the UK to Europe and said it was more than flying. Sure, but that’s because train prices in the UK are ridiculous, not because train prices in Europe are ridiculous. The UK is the outlier, always has been.
Taking a train in the UK, even across the UK, is sometimes more expensive than driving - it usually is when you factor in getting from a station to somewhere else. Meanwhile, taking a train within Europe is generally very affordable. The difference is the governments in the mainland actually regulate and ensure investment.
In Germany you can get a train to anywhere in the country for about €20, and children up to 14 are free. There’s also Interrail tickets you can get across Europe that cover regions or countries, when the UK was a part of this system the UK-wide ticket cost roughly the price of 3 EU countries, even though the UK is much smaller.
I’m from Germany, and none of the things you said are true. For example, to get from Aachen Central station to Hamburg Central station the cheapest option is 23,90€, but that connection is from 8pm to 3am. If you want to ride in the day, your cheapest price is the Quer-Durchs-Land-Ticket (“Cross-Country Ticket”) at 44€. But that way you are only allowed to use regional trains, which will make it a 7 hour train ride. If you want to use intercity trains (still a 5 hour ride), you will pay around 70-90€. And all of that is for 2nd class.
The age cutoff for children to travel for free is 6 years, children from 6-14 and 15-27 years travel at variously reduced prices (39€ for regional-only, 42€ for intercity).
I don’t know where you got your information, but here in Germany, we are in the same situation as the UK. And while trains in the UK may be painfully slow on cross-country travel, I have felt that they were much more comfortable to travel on, given the absolutely abysmal state of a lot of our trains.
I was basing it on the information on this page: https://www.bahn.com/en/offers/saver-fare although now that I look at it the prices are “from” ~€20. IIRC there was also a limit on train prices across Germany over the summer, I think I may have confused these two.
€70-90 intercity is still cheaper than £100 to get halfway across England, with prices going up from there. Particularly when you look at the distances travelled. Again, this is standard fare, first class is much more expensive.
While maybe not as cheap as I was saying, train travel most definitely is better and cheaper in Germany than the UK, in my experience. I was in Germany a couple months ago using the train to get around. The situation might be headed in the same direction, but it’s far better over there.
For a specific example, Munich to Berlin takes 4-4.5 hours by train, compared to 5.5 hours driving, a distance of 590 km / 360 miles. The 4 hour route can be €70 euros, peak price is €170 while if you travel late in the day you can get it for just €17.90. Meanwhile, Bristol to Leeds is only 209 miles or 330 km, takes 3.5 hours by car or by train, but a train ticket will cost you £108.10 one way super off peak (after morning rush).
So I guess German trains can be as expensive as UK trains, but you get many more cheaper options than we do - all while covering greater distances with trains that are quicker than driving.
This is definitely a bullshit comparison because there’s no way that flight doesn’t come with a ton of airport and processing fees and taxes, making its final price many times what’s listed here:
the cost of the train was 384 euros (about $430) compared to 12.99 euros for the Ryanair flight – making the train 29.6 times more expensive than the plane.
This is definitely a bullshit comparison because there’s no way that flight doesn’t come with a ton of airport and processing fees and taxes, making its final price many times what’s listed here
And then we haven’t talked about externalities yet. Planes cause so much more climate damage (which someone will have to pay), air pollution, probably noise pollution and possibly more.
Yeah they’re taking the first price Ryanair advertise, rather than the final price you end up paying. Also, you can’t bring anything with you at that price, just your carry on bag.
Meanwhile, cutting out the UK, a train from Paris to Barcelona can be had for €45 if you book well in advance (2 months), maybe even less than that.
you can definitely fly at just the advertised price. been there, done that. paid 16 € for a ticket, no extra fees.
No suitcase.
Don’t need it.
Have just been to Paris for a week, with just a backpack (included in the price), managed just fine. If you don’t pack enough clothes, you can just get them washed pretty much anywhere.
The cost of doing laundry, both in money and time (particularly in a foreign and unfamiliar country), isn’t really worth the cost of bringing a proper suitcase.
Saying that though, if you’re happy travelling light, more power to you. I like to bring the kitchen sink with me, but that’s just me.
In Germany you can get a train to anywhere in the country for about €20
While this is true, there’s a big asterisk attached to the statement.
DB adjusts the ticket price based on how many seats are still empty (asking other things).
Which means the earlier you book the cheaper the tickets are. But prices can ramp up quickly.
For an unpopular connection (mostly through the night) it can be enough to book 1 week in advance.
However for popular connections at prime times you gotta book at least a month in advance.
Depending on circumstances, it’s nice and it sucks at the same time.
Depending on circumstances, it’s nice and it sucks at the same time.
Yeah, that was the general impression I had when I dug deeper.
Still, your trains are quicker than those in the UK, and they can be much cheaper albeit maybe sometimes a bit more expensive.
In Germany, it’s greed. I remember 18 years ago a train ride to the next city to go to the movies was 1.30 euros. Today it costs 5.80 euros. That’s not inflation, that’s just greed.
They gotta finance their infrastructure somehow.
Oh, right. They’re incentivized to not do exactly that. So they can cry to the government for even more funds.
Even more obscene is that they used to have a monopoly by law until sometime in the mid-2000s. No other corporation was allowed to compete with Deutsche Bahn, a remnant of Hitler’s agenda to strengthen governmental grip on public transport.
And still they managed to have deficits in every financial quarter.
Doesn’t really go into the reasons for the price difference?? I doubt kerosene subsidies counts for everything?
Btw I like trains and think we should ban a lot of flights that can be serviced with quick alternatives
think we should ban a lot of flights that can be serviced with quick alternatives
Doing that without actually bringing down the train fares would be frustrating. Budget airline tickets in Europe are ludicrously cheap.
Good point, because we rely on what little competition there is to get reasonable pricing.
Test
People don’t vote for these kinds of things. They just complain about it and then vote for whichever party shouts the loudest about immigration which, as we all know, is the most important issue on the planet. Nothing could ever be more important
Yup, and in the Netherlands the main train company is planning to make it even more expensive on purpose, in order to discourage people from taking the train.
I drive along the A1 near Amersfoort every morning and more cars isn’t really the solution. I’m considering working from home more. Probably will once I’ve worked at this company a little bit longer.
This is the report:
https://greenpeace.at/uploads/2023/07/report-ticket-prices-of-planes-vs-trains-in-europe.pdf
While undoubtedly the train fares are unreasonably expensive in several routes specially in UK, the comparison is mostly for longer routes like London to Barcelona or Madrid to Brussels, where you need to change several trains from different operators. Few would be willing to try such a route.
These kind of routes are not much favourable to trains and also the quoted Ryanair fare, I doubt 12.9€ is a last minute fare, it probably doesn’t include airport fees and extras you might want like a luggage and so on.
I wish it made sense for me to take bus or train to visit family on the other end of Europe, but it’s both more expensive. Makes me feel half bad about a trip I should enjoy. Why is everything upside down?
Ok, apart from the biased article, the price (that sometimes is a bit more for trains than flights) isn’t as much of a problem as the mix and match of railway systems across europe which makes it awfully difficult to get from here to there fast and without a lot of changing trains. Each change is a risk of being late once your train is delayed and then your whole journey is off.
For the love of God, I really tried to find a train connection to Pula from Munich. I really tried. Even thought going through Italy, and taking a ferry from Venice. But it would have required changing trains 6 times or so and would have taken approx. 24 hours, whilst being indeed more expensive - as far as I could tell, since I cannot buy all the tickets at one place. I still feel horrible but I ended up flying there. If I was by myself I would have taken on the trip with the changes. Or considered a coach although all my experiences with coaches sucked so hard. But with a one year old it was just not feasible.
Adam Something has a great video on why trains in Europe are… Not as simple.
And in Paris it could cost you an extra €60 or something if there’s random ticket check and you can’t provide that you have the ticket. As a tourist I’ve seen this myself in Bir-Hakeim Station. Please keep your ticket, don’t throw it away!
That sounds pretty reasonable to be fair. How else are they gonna check your ticket? Though I get how it would be frustrating if there were no ways to book your ticket from your phone or pc, not sure if it’s the case for Paris.
Hi. As someone who are not from Paris or Europe all i could think is that everyone who ride the train will already bought their ticket as they will need it to pass the turnstile, so i often throw the ticket away after checking in at the turnstile.
I’m from Spain and there’s a lot of people jumping the turnstile so, while I understand your point, they still check just in case you jumped. It’s stupid but needs to be done 😐😐
That’s how it is in most places. Or at least the places I have taken trains: Europe, Seattle, Portland, and NYC. Although in NYC they do not check for subway tickets. The regional train definitely checks though.
I haven’t been to the U.S, Thank you I’ll keep that in mind.
Dang, no wonder America decided to scrap passenger trains altogether and go all-in on planes and cars (and buses if you can’t afford either).
#Trains are mostly dead to me. Not just because of price, but also price inconsistency¹, the exclusive info systems² & payment shenanigans³.
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Train fare from country A to country B can by bought in either country via the national rail provider. Each quote different prices for the same train. (the EU had some agenda to fix this, but apparently it has failed)
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Tor users are blocked from even seeing which trains are available, and if that exclusivity doesn’t stop you sometimes there are extra hoops to see the prices.
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Cash payers often have to pay much more than online payers (#warOnCash). Complex promos also make a game of it. E.g. there will be a cross-border weekend fare, but you cannot buy that ticket from your departure point. You have to take a train to the bordering town, get off the train, and buy the cheap cross-border ticket in that station, then get the next train.
Buses are:
- cheaper most of the time
- have open platforms (no blockade against Tor users or CAPTCHAs)
- ironically have lower GHG than trains according to British research
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Monopoly or near it. Planes have to compete.
Privatization backfiring?
In Japan, it can be cheaper to fly than to take the shinkansen (bullet train), but the trains are much more convenient. No security checks like air travel, no waiting in line for ages, no going out of the way to get to an airport (one of “Tokyo”'s airports is actually a prefecture over in Chiba), etc.