That’s a little bit sexist

Please define passive misandry

Normal masculinity is simply existing and not giving a fuck how other people expect you to live. There’s almost no point in discussing it more as the left is already very comfortable with discussing the idea that you are who you are and you can be proud of that. That message is literally everywhere.

Toxic masculinity has to be discussed because people are being made to confuse being toxic with being “strong” which is something the right is creating. Their image of a “real man” is toxic.

It’s like the whole “racist right winger” or “neonazi” labels given to a politician, but then some random right winger gets all bent out of shape as if they were called a Nazi… They weren’t even part of the conversation, they decided to take on that guilt. It’s the same with toxic masculinity. If you’re not expressing the things that are discussed within that subject then they aren’t talking about you, you’re more than likely “performing” normal masculinity. It’s not the fault of the people having the conversation that someone else chose to feel offended by it when it wasn’t about them at all.

Interesting to assume people like Tate didn’t exist before. They just changed their rhetoric and added “anti-feminist” to their agenda since that’s trendy in certain circles now. These people existed already in much greater numbers in the past.

Masculinity is not the centre of the discussion of the left or even feminism, though. It’s just what certain people want to make out of it, which is exactly what the quote above is referring to.

Advancing rights for women in general spans a broad spectrum of intersectionality with masculinity just being one fraction of it. You can look up how many feminists are actually talking about masculinity unprompted and you’d be surprised how infrequent it is. It is a certain group of people with an often anti-feminist agenda who try to make it seem as if masculinity was somehow the main hook of feminist discussion.

Most leftists and feminists want emancipation for men as well, with that they mean the emancipation from gender roles for everyone.

What is “normal masculinity”?

I grew up in a Calvinistic worldview where every week you were reminded you were utterly disgusting in the eyes of God and simply by being born you deserved to be tortured more brutally than the English language can adequately express because you had by virtue of being human inherited original sin, and the only way you could get rid of it is if you had been predestined to be saved by Jesus (who did not come to save everyone, only a select few). Anyone can imagine the horrible effect this polar opposite of therapy has on rates of mental illness in that community. This kind of worldview was popular with the English Dissenters (those famous ‘persecuted pilgrims’ belong to this category) who later crossed the Atlantic in large numbers and I think I can see its unpleasant legacy in American political thought both left and right.

If there is one idea I could delete out of existence it’s this notion of original sin in both its religious and secular forms. I would make it unlawful to tell a child that they were born guilty of anything simply for existing or that guilt can be inherited from anyone because of how psychologically harmful this is. While it’s usually not the intention there exists a trend that de facto results in telling boys they’re guilty of various things simply for existing, and then in the same breath we act surprised when scumbags like Tate are hoovering up their attention instead of everyone telling them what a piece of crap they are for being born. Manly qualities in my mind are qualities like physical and mental strength in the face of adversity, having the moral courage to make difficult decisions for the good of a group, a deep sense of good sportsmanship, being willing and able to take risks when required, that sort of thing. The left should be all over that as its history is littered with such examples!

like, there isn’t a non-partisan stance towards masculinity

The left side of politics has always struggled to bring people along for the journey, they can advocate for people but building a coherent argument and inspiring people to come along for the ride will always be their downfall. They cannot achieve progressive change if they fail to recognize the concerns of the right.

Jon Stewart, Trae Crowder, and Beau of the Fifth Column are three more excellent examples of positive male role models.

Who is our Jordan Peterson equivalent?

Reporters and intellectuals can be role models but they are more passive than actively preaching what masculinity should mean.

We’ve also got Brian Tyler Cohen, Hasan Piker, David Pakman as well. Beau Of The 5th Column I know has already been listed, but I feel when it comes to instilling change in the hearts and mind of radicalized young men, he’s up there with Hasan and BTC.

They do, but they are not mainstream. “Average person” probably never heard of them.

JOHN OLIVER IS A REAL PERSON?

I’m pretty far left and in my entire life I’ve never experienced “only girls can have issues” as more than an extreme fringe statement.

What I tend to see regarding men is how they, too, are victims of toxic masculinity, taught to internalize their emotions until they have literal breakdowns. The Left gives a fuck about that, and it’s one of the cited reasons they have problems with toxic masculinity.

I wonder where you get the impression that “the left” is saying “only girls can have issues”? It feels to me like people have spun this reactionary tale in the backlash to feminism but no one is actually saying that.

It is like every time someone tries to talk about issues women face this is seen as an attack on men. Which I find frankly ridiculous. At the same time, in many cases when people bring up boy’s or men’s issues they will only do so while simultaneously attacking feminist talking points. This is especially prevalent on social media platforms like Reddit and YouTube.

It does seem like anti-feminists and sometimes straight up misogynistic people have monopolized the entire discussion surrounding men’s issues. When you look up information regarding issues men face it is really hard to not end up in a hateful corner of the internet. Some of these sources do not actually have the people looking for help at heart, they are simply anti-feminist and will even go so far as to provide inaccurate information or withhold information just so that they can keep up their narrative.

Actually, just don’t fuck em.

I’m sure the 25% figure will plummet when they enter the adult world, realise Andrew Tate is just a sad, loud little man who never found a way to proccess his fathers abuse and that imitating him does the opposite of getting you laid.

At least give them a reach-around

Leftists could address these issues better by supporting unions more.

In turn, my parents are gradually escaping.

My dad was a Never Trumper who we gently led out. And Jan 6th made him an “independent” (he votes for Democrats now). My mom is a loyal Republican (somehow)… but agrees Trump is an arrogant piece of garbage and not the horse to bet on.

And this is why Republicans are so opposed to higher education. My dad grew up in a conservative household - like, so conservative that my grandad would respond to the question of who he was going to vote for with “I’m a Republican. I vote for the nominee,” and it wasn’t until he went to college and met people with life experiences that were different from his that my dad began to question the things he was told about the world when he was growing up.

It’s a lot easier to convince you that your life sucks because Jewish brown immigrants are taking all the jobs and women won’t date you because, actually, they’re the sexist ones (and it definitely has nothing to do with the fact that you treat them like sex toys) if you’ve never been beyond 40 miles of where you were born and have never been outside of a town where everybody looks like you.

I can also relate, a classic libertarian utopia sounds great until you realise poor people exist. I think a lot of individuals are just afraid of personal growth because it often means admitting you were wrong.

There is such a thing as a “Libertarian Socialist”, which seems to be what you are looking for. A lot of Libertarian Socialists also just call themselves “anarchists”; and “anarchism” essentially just means something like “anti-authority” or “anti-hierarchy”.

If you want to maybe explore it a bit:

• Homage to Catalonia is a book written by George Orwell where he tells of his time in Spain fighting alongside the anarchists and socialists in Spain (against the fascists supported by Hitler and Mussolini, and against the republicans backed by Stalin).

• The Dispossessed written by Ursula K. Le Guin; it’s a sci-fi story about a society living on a moon, who are anti-capitalists and supposedly anarchists (whether they are anarchists or not is one of the focus points of the story).

If you just want to read theory instead, you can also search for Pyotr Kropotkin, and Emma Goldberg.

yeah it’s a shame that libertarian basically means closeted republican these days

is there a better term?

I’d consider myself pretty libertarian-minded in the whole ‘you live your life and I live mine’ style, but not in the ‘let corporations do whatever they want to workers and the environment’ style

Yeah the idea that republicans give a shit about blue collar workers is hilarious.

Possibly. I did blue collar work for years after university and became more left leaning.

So incredibly true

Yeah, me too. Though I was taken on by the whole “radical liberal left being oversensitive” thing. I thought of women as equal, but the “femimazis” were extreme. I thought non-heterosexual and non-binary were a bit odd, but they can do what they want, why should I care, but I was the “LGBT propaganda” was too much. I thought people fleeing from wartorn regions deserved another chance, but the “sjws are just letting anyone and everyone in, and they can do whatever they want because otherwise it would be racism”.

I would call myself right wing, but practically all of my opinions were very far from it because my youtube overloaded brain thought that the “left” were just a bunch of idle people getting looking what to get offended by today. Only later at uni did I find out how overblown the whole “SJW” youtube thing was, and how much more insane and damaging the other extreme was.

And I believe that this is very much the case, people in school aren’t “right wing” because they carefully thought about life and society, but because all they hear about the “left” is this comically exaggerated notion that they’re touchy freaks who just want to scream how they’re oppressed by everything. Ironically, what got me out of the stupid right wing youtube company was left wing youtube with hour long videos exposing how that “SJW” narrative is just manipulation. But by the time they make one long detailed video exposing some false story, 1000 more of them pop out.

Honestly, the large portion of the internet is just poisonous, especially youtube. The sooner people learn to think and examine sources (use the internet), the better off we’re all be.

I totally could have gone down that route if I were younger. I spent a good amount of time reading conspiracy theories online before YouTube existed.

I spent nearly every dollar I had saved to live in London, and don’t think I’d ever seen such visible displays of wealth disparity once I got there. I got a good paying job but often struggled to save and pay all my bills.

I got to live through the Brexit debate while living behind a chip shop in a poorer, multicultural neighbourhood and heard all the bullshit about immigration being directed at brown people while I worked there as an immigrant myself but because I was white I was largely accepted.

I learned a new level of contempt for the pointless wealth of the monarchy and had to deal with a boss who was plainly bad at his job but because he had an OBE everyone around me worshipped him like he could do no wrong.

I also worked for some very large companies and realised they aren’t anything special, just willing to exploit more people.

That’s not what they’re saying, they’re saying- very correctly- that whereas the Right has cultivated a pipeline for reaching out to young men via these propagandists, the Left has not. We’re largely ceding the conversations about young male disaffection to those kinds of Right-wing assholes who tell them it’s the fault of the Left.

Vaush, for example, is not a good resource for someone who’s just some awkward high school kid who knows nothing about politics. He’s not speaking to that kid’s concerns, he’s ranting (very justifiedly, but that’s irrelevant) about the manosphere. If you look at the videos by the manosphere, they’re trying to touch on points of interest to young men as a group. If you look at the Left-wing YTers, they’re talking to people who already dislike the manosphere: “Conservatives don’t understand Manga or Anime” (Tim Poole) vs “This incel video is pathetic” (Vaush).

I think a key problem is that for many of us on the Left, it’s very difficult to understand (or believe) that someone could look at what right-wingers are doing and not care, so we think it’s just an issue of exposure. What we forget is that they have to click on the video/ article/ podcast first, before they get exposed to the content, and right-wingers are sitting there putting out the exact opposite stuff about the Left (“Watch these crazy liberal college feminists getting owned by Ben!”) To someone who is disconnected, it does look like it’s just 2 equal sides ranting about each other.

So if I don’t know who Andrew Tate is, I’m not going to click on a video about why he’s bad.

But manga and anime? I love those! I’ll click on that. “Why young men feel like no one cares?” I’m an angsty young man, I’ll watch that! Then that video leads to the “Why Socialism is Destroying America!” one, and down the rabbit hole they go.

Right. While I feel for what OP has said, it’s like the right can be as nasty as they want to be while it’s the left that’s charged with picking up the pieces. I don’t know what the answer is but it can’t be let the right do and say whatever.

It’s not that they are good at addressing it, they’re they only group that vocally addresses it at all.

Young white men are a group, a large group, in the US and when then ONLY people saying “hey its okay to be YOU SPECIFICALLY YOUNG WHITE MAN”, their social media algorithms tend to lean toward that.

I’m pretty liberal because of my own life experiences, and my youtube feed is just filled to the brim with Andrew Tate, Walsh, Shapiro, Peterson, Jones, etc. I happen to find Jor Rogan funny and that’s about the furthest right I go, but because of that I’m can’t not open youtube and be subjected with this type of content that, more or less, targets my demographic.

Personally, I see it as a grift. To me, these people are just making money selling bullshit by the bulk, and young white men happen to both have money and no other ‘pick me’ iconography.

I’ve dealt with suicidal ideation and mental health problems all my life, and Peterson comes on and tells me it’s okay to feel emotions, but then immediately starts talking about how trans people will never be happy and should never try to transition. I’m pretty cognitive and can see its more or less book sales for him and he’s talking about an experiences he’s never had, but a 15 year old isn’t quite as cognitive nor has had the same level of life experience as my age group

I would love it if his father bothered to put in effort in raising my eldest nephew, but that isn’t going to happen sadly.

And I never insinuated the right was doing a good job???

I think the main issue with Rogen is that while he provides a platform for voices across the political/social spectrum (which is great), he does very little to challenge his guests and generally goes with the flow. This means that people making false claims or dog whistle statements are being taken at face value alongside people making good faith arguments, which grants those bad actors some amount of undeserved authenticity.

So no, he is not nearly as bad as Andrew Tate etc; but he has a lot of exposure and clout that he does not always bring to bear in the name of true and honest discussion. Also the whole RFK debate thing is really poignant here as it’s a typical example of taking two “balanced” perspectives on vaccines and assuming that they both deserve to be at the same table, when in reality the anti vax movement largely gets by without any scientific evidence and isn’t a reasonable position to hold.

Seriously? https://sopuli.xyz/post/1806608

Rogan is a dumbshit winger troll.

Lol wow.

It’s kind of silly to pretend like “liberal” and “conservative/right” don’t have corresponding political parties in the US. Maybe they’re not supposed to, but that’s not reality.

The same thing fascism seemingly has to offer: easy solutions to complex problems.

I’m not saying (especially white) young men are treated unfair but as one myself it’s easy to come to the conclusion as you do feel a rift between fulfilling conservative societal norms you grew up with and learned from your elders for which isn’t really a space left anymore except of conservative circles so you do kinda feel like being privileged is a burden because you think you have to fulfill more expectations than other groups and I think there’s a lack of addressing this in public discourse without simply demonizing young males for trying to find their identity in a way that also includes a healthy relationship with one’s own masculinity. If you discuss this I feel like you’re quickly drifting into incel and alpha bullshit territory because they’re the only ones addressing those problems but of course they don’t offer actual solutions because that’s not really part of their business model.

Power fantasies.

Colleges are also seeing less men succeed in the environment. Men are struggling in the classroom and with mental health.

I think we all agree young people are getting a shitty deal with today’s society. It’s hard to think positively for them.

@Kata1yst @trashhalo @VanillaGorilla Yep. Hence why conservatives keep calling college “woke” and “liberal indoctrination.” Funny how reality and not living in denial makes people more left.

That’s when I went from being conservative to liberal, for sure. Still moving further left, 10 years later.