The indictment against former President Donald Trump for his role in attempting to overturn the 2020 election results is the most important case in U.S. history, according to the author. The indictment alleges that Trump conspired to make false claims of election fraud and used those claims in an attempt to steal the election through pressuring state officials and interfering with Congress’ certification of the electoral votes. If convicted, it would deter future would-be authoritarians from attempting to subvert elections. However, Trump may argue that he honestly believed the election was stolen, and assert First Amendment defenses. Still, the risks of not prosecuting Trump for undermining democracy are greater than the risks of prosecution. The outcome of this case will greatly influence whether the U.S. remains a democracy after 2024.
- skellener ( @skellener@kbin.social ) 43•1 year ago
He thinks that running for President gives him privilege to avoid answering for his crimes. We have one set of laws for ALL Americans. It’s time to pay the price scumbag. Prison soon.
- norb ( @norb@lem.norbz.org ) 30•1 year ago
Running for president doesn’t give him privilege to avoid answering for his crimes, but WINNING most definitely does.
- NataliePortland ( @admin@thegarden.land ) English15•1 year ago
This reminds me of a scene in the book Shogun where Blackthorne is asked something like “how could you possibly be excused for rebellion?”
“If you win”
I don’t want Trump to win! But he could probably weasel out of this mess by becoming president
- norb ( @norb@lem.norbz.org ) 6•1 year ago
What a great book!
- HousePanther ( @housepanther@lemmy.goblackcat.com ) English30•1 year ago
Considering a US president has never before actively encouraged, and may have spear-headed, an open revolt!? Yes, I would say it probably will be the most important case in US history.
- CapgrasDelusion ( @CapgrasDelusion@kbin.social ) 28•1 year ago
He can claim he believes it all he wants. The indictment isn’t just for what he said, it’s for what he DID. No matter your beliefs you can’t bully a secretary of state to try to get more votes, you can’t conspire to have a bunch of fake electors, you can’t order the Vice President to overrule the will of the voters.
“The indictment includes charges of conspiring to defraud the U.S., conspiring to obstruct an official proceeding, obstructing an official proceeding and violating a post-Civil War Reconstruction Era civil rights statute that makes it a crime to conspire to violate rights that are guaranteed by the Constitution — in this case, the right to vote.” https://apnews.com/article/trump-indicted-jan-6-investigation-special-counsel-debb59bb7a4d9f93f7e2dace01feccdc
There is nothing in those charges about what he said. For those at least, he can’t hide behind the first amendment.
I’m more worried there’s going to be one fucking dumbass on the jury who derails the whole thing into a mistrial, Trump wins the election, and pardons himself or pulls some other shenanigans to weasel out.
- Kwakigra ( @Kwakigra@beehaw.org ) 17•1 year ago
Thanks for re-directing back to the real issue. Fox News and Republicans in general want to make this seem like a free speech issue, and it’s going to work if people don’t know what the actual details of the case are.
- JCPhoenix ( @JCPhoenix@beehaw.org ) 11•1 year ago
Yup. It literally says in the indictment (PDF) that Trump, like anyone else, has freedom of speech.
The Defendant had a right, like every American, to speak publicly about the election and even to claim, falsely,that there had been outcome-determinative fraud during the election andthat he had won . He was also entitled to formally challenge the results ofthe election through lawful and appropriate means, such as by seeking recounts or audits of the popular vote in states or filing lawsuits challenging ballots and procedures. Indeed, in many cases, the Defendant did pursue these methods of contesting the election results. His efforts to change the outcome in any state through recounts , audits,or legal challenges were uniformly unsuccessful.
But of course, FNC and their ilk won’t pay attention to that. They won’t even read the indictment.
- methodicalaspect ( @unwillingsomnambulist@midwest.social ) English13•1 year ago
Indictments are one thing. Convictions are another, and punishments are yet another. Wake me up when something actually happens.
- keeb420 ( @keeb420@kbin.social ) 9•1 year ago
Just indicating him is a big step I wasn’t sure they would take. I wish he was locked up already but these things take time, even for regular people it isn’t a quick process.
- HotDogFingies ( @HotDogFingies@kbin.social ) 1•1 year ago
I can’t emotionally handle it either.
- potpie ( @potpie@beehaw.org ) English1•1 year ago
Really? How is this cringe meme of a comment still a thing? Get the wheels off your goalposts.
- ConsciousCode ( @ConsciousCode@beehaw.org ) 9•1 year ago
Why did it take 3 years to indict him?
- paris ( @paris@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) 21•1 year ago
- It’s a lengthy process if you do it thoroughly
- The stakes are high so taking your time to do things right is important
- Trump’s legal team has certainly been doing everything they can to delay everything they’re able to
- P03 Locke ( @p03locke@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) English1•1 year ago
Trump’s legal team has certainly been doing everything they can to delay everything they’re able to
Trump’s legal team is not very smart, and now is hard to find, since they all quit. I doubt they did everything.
- fuzzywolf23 ( @fuzzywolf23@beehaw.org ) 12•1 year ago
Ever had to write a research paper where the books didn’t want to let you read them?
- figaro ( @figaro@lemdro.id ) English4•1 year ago
Lol good analogy
- CapgrasDelusion ( @CapgrasDelusion@kbin.social ) 2•1 year ago
Why does it matter? Why deflect instead of addressing the substance of the indictment?
- ConsciousCode ( @ConsciousCode@beehaw.org ) 2•1 year ago
I’m not questioning the legitimacy of the indictment, I’m wondering why it took so long to indict such a serious offense. Even the Republican senators were in danger, so I don’t get why neither party pushed for it harder.
- CapgrasDelusion ( @CapgrasDelusion@kbin.social ) 2•1 year ago
I see, I apologize for assuming. I think others have already answered that better than I could. I do think the DOJ sat on this longer than they should have but as someone else already said, Trump and his coconspirators entire legal strategy has been delay, delay, delay.
Gathering evidence takes time. and they had to wait for the congressional inquiries to finish
- dunning_cougar ( @dunning_cougar@waveform.social ) 5•1 year ago
Weak charges. Every flimsy indictment only galvanizes MAGA and vindicates Trump’s bloviating about the deep state. Hell raise 100 million dollars off this.
- root ( @root@socialmedia.fail ) 18•1 year ago
Irrelevant. An impartial grand jury decided he should be charged. It’s not about whether it’s advantageous to him politically, it’s about law and order.
- dunning_cougar ( @dunning_cougar@waveform.social ) 2•1 year ago
They chickened out and didn’t charge sedition. Now he can still run, weak charges are worse than no charges.
- root ( @root@socialmedia.fail ) 9•1 year ago
Did they? Or did the available evidence and applicable case law not support sedition charges?
- dunning_cougar ( @dunning_cougar@waveform.social ) 2•1 year ago
Insurrection is sedition???
- root ( @root@socialmedia.fail ) 10•1 year ago
The question is whether it can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to the letter of the law.
- dunning_cougar ( @dunning_cougar@waveform.social ) 2•1 year ago
Well conspiracy charges are laughably vague and afaik conviction doesn’t bar him from running. So what’s the point? We are handing him the WH… again
- root ( @root@socialmedia.fail ) 4•1 year ago
I just told you what the point is. It has nothing to do with his 2024 campaign, nor should it. Would be pretty fucked up if it did.
- thomcat ( @thomcat@midwest.social ) 4•1 year ago
Username checks out
- relyn ( @relyn@lemmy.ml ) 3•1 year ago
This is the reality. The best thing everyone including the doj could have done is stop even acknowledging his existence. Things like this are just fanning the MAGA flame.
- CileTheSane ( @CileTheSane@kbin.social ) 14•1 year ago
Right, Trump will definately just go away if you cover your eyes and plug your ears…
- keeb420 ( @keeb420@kbin.social ) 7•1 year ago
Nope we need to stop this shit now. Letting him go only emboldens the next person who wants to do it.
- Spacegrass ( @Spacegrass@artemis.camp ) 2•1 year ago
Maybe allowing the next person with his strength and without his weaknesses to succeed where he failed.
- fuzzywolf23 ( @fuzzywolf23@beehaw.org ) 1•1 year ago
Every dollar he spends on defense lawyers is one he doesn’t spend on campaign ads
- circularfish ( @circularfish@beehaw.org ) 5•1 year ago
He is going to argue that he was fed bad information by his alleged co-conspirators and had reasonable concerns about the integrity of the election. No mens rea, no conviction. Bullshit, of course, but it doesn’t take a whole lot to hang a jury, and I would think that is particularly so in a politically charged case. I have seen a lot of good arguments to the contrary, but folks have to understand that proving this part is harder than you might think.
He is in greater immediate jeopardy with the documents case where it is impossible to see him mounting a successful defense, at least if the law is followed. The question there will be the severity of the consequences. Will he plead out? Will he get a slap on the wrist?
Edit: interesting short blurb here where Bill Barr is quoted as saying he thinks prosecutors have additional evidence establishing intent.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/03/politics/bill-barr-trump-arraignment-2020-election/index.html
- jimmydoreisalefty ( @jimmydoreisalefty@lemmus.org ) 2•1 year ago
“Trump may lose trial but win appeal”
– Alan Dershowitz: Evidence Against Trump Is WEAK, Indictment Could CRIMINALIZE Free Speech?
“Donald Trump’s lawyer Alan Dershowitz weighs in on the third indictment of Donald Trump. #trumpindictment #Trump”