- cross-posted to:
- technews@radiation.party
- cross-posted to:
- technews@radiation.party
(link is to the Supreme Court’s opinion document)
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It’s quite okay to bail out corporations all day long (2008/2009 great recession, 2020 pandemic) to the tune of billions and billions of dollars, but don’t even think of helping normal people. Ever.
This just proves it’s VERY important to vote and allowing someone like Trump to have 3 court picks has clearly been disastrous in many decisions made by this court.
I paid for my loans - why should we forgive the loans for what is already the most entitled generation ever? They took out the loans - they can pay them. Otherwise where does it stop? Are they going to forgive mortgages and car loans next? Why not? It’s the same principle.
I paid for my loans - why should we forgive the loans
first off… you do know that the economy doesn’t just stay stagnant for decades, right? houses aren’t $17,000 anymore. the fact that you were able to pay your loans before has little to do with how expensive student loans are now.
secondly, the logic of “i did it so they should have to do it to” is quite a toxic & nonproductive way to think about society, & societal change. what you need to realize is that this sentiment comes from a place of envy & bitterness rather than actual logic. you don’t want things to improve for the next generation because you can’t fathom someone having it easier than you. you could apply this logic to anything, & the final conclusion will always just be “why bother changing”, it’s not much different from the conclusions you’d reach through pessimistic nihilism. growing up i was poor, so much so that sometimes we didn’t even have dinner, a house or even a car to sleep in. does that mean i should raise my future children in poverty too? why not? i did it, got through it, so the next generation should have to get through it too, right?
if, throughout human history, our entire reasoning for making changes in society was “well i had to do it so they have to too” then we’d still be in huts & making fire with sticks. our ancestors didn’t work, fight, & die so that the next generation would have to live the exact same life as them, they worked so that their children could have better. & this drive for the next generation to have a better life than the last is the reason why we’ve worked so hard to improve, invent, & innovate over the course of human history. it’s why we even have a safe society in the first place, & probably why your parents worked so hard to give you a great life too.
what is already the most entitled generation ever?
according to who, & what? from my perspective, the generation who had an economy so great that they could afford a house & family without college & yet still choose to complain about everything is the most entitled. but i guess we’re all spoiled brats because we want to have an actual future.
Otherwise where does it stop? Are they going to forgive mortgages and car loans next? Why not? It’s the same principle.
slippery slope is known as a logical fallacy for a reason
This is just a beautiful response. Thank you for writing it up so that I didn’t have to attempt it.
thanks lol, usually i wouldn’t have bothered attempting to engage with someone like this either, but i figured trying to actually educate someone for once is more conductive to the spirit of this instance than just angrily ignoring😅
Thanks for putting to words what I wouldn’t be able to until next week while in the shower and then I forget before I dry off and get to my phone!
Also, to add, corporations buy these student loans and then skyrocket them, making it extremely difficult to pay them off.
i struggle with coming up with responses late too lol, don’t know what got into me there
If Beehaw had awards or gilding of some kind, I would give you some for this response.
the most entitled generation ever
You mean the boomers who went to college for like five bucks a semester?
undefined_one> It’s the same principle.
It’s really not. The system is broken and student loans are extortionate. Borrowers were promised something that was not delivered.
I paid for my loans, too, but I don’t think the next generation should suffer because we bought into a broken system. It’s been shown that student loan forgiveness will have a hugely positive impact on the economy. I’d much rather we make decisions that benefit society as a whole versus holding on some misplaced idea that it’s more important we punish a group for believing the lies they were told.
Also, “most entitled generation ever” is such bullshit, pure and simple. Wage gap, American Dream© being a lie, housing crisis, etc., etc. This generation was led to believe they had a future, but they just can’t afford it.>
“I beat cancer, why should we spend money curing it?”
Car loans don’t directly improve our society. Education does.
Because we owe the younger generations a better future. The rallying cry of narcissists and fools is “I suffered and therefore so should you!” – we’re better than that.
Your generation does the job listing that requires that generation to get a degree?
The irony of “i got mine during a better economy, fuck them kids” is a stance you are proud of.
What makes them the most entitled generation ever?
This is an incredibly selfish perspective. We’re talking about education, not a mortgage, although everyone should have the ability to house themselves.
A nation should want an educated population, so higher education should be made easier to achieve, not harder to achieve. That’s why most developed nations have affordable universities or free/cheap public education.
Young people were pushed constantly to get higher education by any means necessary or they were told they would ruin their futures. This means that kids as young as 18 and 19 were signing their life away and going into massive amounts of debt because they felt they had no other choice. Combined with the predatory loan and for profit university practices of loaning as much as they can and charging whatever loan companies would give, it quickly spirals into screw-a-generation territory.
Just because you managed to pay off your loans doesn’t make it feasible for everyone else, and they don’t deserve to have a tough life because of predatory higher education costs and decisions they made right out of highschool.
I was a slave for my whole life, why should my children be free of the pain I endured?
Look at this guy acting like there isn’t also a housing crisis in the USA
Let’s re-examine your statement by switching out a couple of words that keep the idea of “why should they get <x>?” to show how it would sound with any other context.
I <had to lose my eye to a car wreck> - why should we force <carmakers to build vehicles with seatbelts> for what is already the most entitled generation ever?
They <want to drive> - they can <drive in a car without a seatbelt just like I did>. Otherwise where does it stop? Are they going to <mandate airbags in cars> next?
Why not? It’s the same principle.
Do you understand now? If not, try changing what’s in the <x> to being related to “cancer treatment” or “the 40 hour work week” or “social security.”
Just because something before was bad and we made it better, doesn’t mean we should not do it just because it won’t help everyone.
“Are they going to forgive mortgages and car loans next?” this would also be a good thing.
My generation is so fucked. Between looming climate collapse, rising inequality, inaccessible housing market, it just feels like shit isn’t worth even trying for.
We can’t even get a small amount of our student loans discharged when prior generations paid basically nothing for them. And - let’s not forget - how corps got all of their ppp shit written off. What a joke.
We can’t even get a small amount of our student loans discharged when prior generations paid basically nothing for them. What a joke
the fact that it’s a 6-3 decision is the real meme here. clearly signals that literally no argument would have convinced the conservative majority here–they will always strike this down. real change on this front necessitates making the court irrelevant or just ignoring it at this point.
Right across ideological lines. It seems unlikely to get politics and ideological beliefs out of the Supreme Court any time soon. The states had no standing in the first place, I’m surprised it didn’t get thrown out just due to that.
The overreach by this court has been disasterous, especially in light of the unethical behavior by justices to accept gifts from would-be plantiffs without recusing themselves.
Yep. Unless we pack the court or do something drastic, the US is screwed for decades.
Something has to change. Between the way our legislators are apportioned, to the way the EC works for the presidency, to the SC lifetime appointments, it just feels like theres no fucking hope
Either the Democrats need to make some big changes internally, or a third party is going to have to break up the current duopoly. The current Democratic party sucks, as an effective opposition to the Republicans. The GOP just keeps drifting further to the far-right, and the Democrats continue to compromise even though the demands are becoming more extreme. This drags the whole government toward more conservative policies, regardless of which party is winning the elections.
Change isn’t going to happen when you have an aging centrist like Biden in the Oval Office. Governing by compromise is all he knows how to do. And yet, the Democrats still think they’re “winning” even though the GOP is actively twisting their arm with every policy they try to pass. We need more people in Congress who are actually liberals, not centrists, and recognize that the current system isn’t working for anyone outside outside of the 1%. Until that happens, the far-right is just going to keep turning up the heat, and the rest of the country is going to be stuck sitting there like a frog in a pot of water that is slowly being brought to a boil.
Third parties fail in a fptp system unfortunately. The whole fucking system needs to be reworked. Whether that happens before everything falls apart is anyone’s guess
Totally in agreement. One of the few things Republicans and Democrats agree on is keeping fptp the standard; it allows them to continue to dominate the election scene. Ranked choice voting would give third parties a fighting chance, so most people in the DNC and GOP will oppose it tooth and nail.
I don’t know that RCV would help either. I think you’d just end up with a conservative “centrist”. I mean, anyone voting for Bernie voted for him in the primaries. You put Bernie, Warren, Biden, Manchin, Kennedy, DeSantis, and Trump into a RCV together, and I don’t think you’ll like where the moderate Biden votes got second or third if he were to lose. At best you would just end up with Biden again.
I’m pretty sure we’re just fucked. I wish I wasn’t but… I just don’t see how any of this changes. I don’t.
Canada’s wildfires are currently 11x worse than they were at the same time last year. And 21x times worse than the average over the past decade. The world’s on fire and everything’s fucked. Feeling really defeated today.
As a fellow young person the only thing that keeps me motivated for change is the hope that when these guys all die (sorry this is so morbid) we can take some power and create some change.
I refuse to believe this decision was influenced, in any way, by any actual consideration of the U.S. Constitution. There’s no reasonable interpretation of that document which would provide sufficient justification to rule the relief plan unconstitutional. This was a political decision, pure and simple, by a government body that is supposed to be apolitical. Just like every other branch of government, the judiciary has become corrupted by billionaire donors and turned into a polarized mockery of its original intent. No wonder public opinion of the Supreme Court is in the toilet. They’re no better than Congress these days.
Frankly, it was a mistake to ever consider the Supreme Court apolitical to begin with. Nobody is above politics, pretending not to play the game doesn’t mean they weren’t doing it. The Supreme Court needs to change, whether its through term limits or making them democratically elected.
It certainly was unrealistic to think this would be an unbiased arm of our government.
Any government or legal institution that’s unelected with lifetime appointments is illegitimate. I said what I said.
Agreed. The SCOTUS is an illegitimate political institution dependent on good faith participation, which is currently nowhere to be found. We need to pack the court and (eventually) abolish it. Our government institutions need to be designed to put power in the hands of regular people instead of oligarchs.
They need to be arrested for corruption.
Well isn’t it the responsibility of the people to be invested in voting?
When people complain about issues with our representation at any level of the US government, those issues are just symptoms of the root cause that the populace is not engaged in voting.
According to Ballotpedia, non presidential election years have a 20-30% lower turnout than presidential election years which only see about 60% turnout.
https://ballotpedia.org/Voter_turnout_in_United_States_elections If people are engaged and vote out incumbents, we get a better court.
Yes and no. Local elections absofuckinglutely.
National elections are getting more and more gerrymandered, however, with right wing states looking to add more and more barriers to voting that specifically leave out marginalized communities. It is hard to get engaged when your vote has literal lines drawn around so it matters less. Add that to the fact that in the US, election day is not a national holiday, and voting is not required and you get working class and poor folks that literally cannot afford to vote is some areas. The rise of mail in voting is a great thing, but even that is being challenged.
Edit: I will add that in a lifetime appointment, even voting for progressive candidates doesn’t help that much. The appointees of the previous hard right government are there for generations. Fuck lifetime appointments
It’s also a problem (and I think by design) that at least 40,000,000 Americans can’t afford to miss a day’s work (ie, a day’s pay really) and that’s just as true on election days as it is any other day of the week.
Our system is (and has been since its inception) designed to serve the wealthy.
Precisely. It is working as intended to keep a lower class. Capitalism doesn’t work without someone being exploited
I really hate the state of the Supreme Court atm. Looking back, it wasn’t a legitimate institution from the beginning, but the current 6-3 court shows how flawed it is, being out of line with public opinion in loads of different cases and effectively legislating from the bench via judicial review.
The only reason it has gotten this bad, though, is because Congress has abdicated its responsibilities as a legislative body and left it more and more to executive orders and court decisions. The entire debate around the Dobbs decision could have been avoided if Dems codified abortion into law, and this one could have avoided too if our Congress actually went to work legislating a solution to the ongoing student loan and college affordability crisis.
I think we need supreme court reform. I’m particularly partial to the idea of having a rotating bench pulled randomly from the lower courts each term, with each party in Congress getting a certain amount of strike outs to take people off that they don’t want, similar to the way jurors are selected. I also think the people should be able to overrule the court via referendum, because ultimately we should decide what the constitution says.
I just can’t see this happening though, at least for multiple decades until the younger people today get into political power.
We would probably have a better Supreme Court even if we had arbitrary requirements that make little sense but would be a better alternative to what we have now. For instance:
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All Justices must have the name Horatio (either a given name or by name change). No last names.
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Twenty years of experience required in horticulture, which because of the forementioned name change, is more like horatioculture.
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Must have read at least 3000 books of any type.
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Can juggle an arbitrary amount of oranges on demand.
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Has combat experience in either blunt or bladed weaponry in the event of a zombie apocalypse, with a skill level scaled to their age. Alternatively, skilled in the occult and necromancy (to turn the undead).
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Can create rhythmic song related to the laws being discussed in the event of spontaneous musicals.
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I also think the people should be able to overrule the court via referendum
The court arguably has the responsibility of protecting minorities from the majority-elected government. Allowing the public to vote on court rulings, especially in combination with Congress doing a jury-style selection of justices, would just further politicize the court and erode minority rights.
The major question doctrine acts as a “get-out-of-text-free card” that conservative justices make “magically appear” whenever they see an executive branch policy that goes against their ideological “goals,” Justice Elena Kagan wrote in a dissent in the 2022 case of West Virginia v. EPA.
Apparently legislating from the bench is fine for Conservatives as long as you make up your own judicial doctrine as justification.
I don’t know how we fix the problems we face. The court is seated by politicians, Congress is seated by grifters and ideologues, and the people are too defeated/controlled to make meaningful changes.
Yeah. The Supreme Court wrote a lot in regards to the word “modify” without addressing the word “waive”.
I’m full of rage, the law means nothing we have no rights, fuck the courts, any petty revenge I can pull to get some type of catharsis I will until the loans are paid off; so for the rest of my life. If anyone has any play to be of mild annoyance, let me know I have one purpose and it’s to fuck shit up.
Can always wheatpaste some anti capitalist propaganda, that’s productive, nonviolent, and due to ease of removal may have lower fines if caught.
You know what, yes. I think I will do that, idc if I’m complaining to a void anymore, its unhealthy to keep all the rage inside. Better to plan civil disobedience than get swept up into a riot from it. At least all of these comments make my rage feel valid.
We are all there with you.
Government by the 1%. For the 1%.
Disappointed but can’t say I’m terribly surprised.
That’s cool I just won’t pay them. What are you gonna do, not let me buy a house? Oh you mean some shit I’m not able to do anyways? Okay. :)
the real answer is they’ll garnish your wages
They seem to forget that when you take everything from people you have no more leverage over them.
Credit scores only have meaning if you use credit.
I’m blessed in that I was able to go to college for free, but I still think we should help out those who are drowning in debt. It’d be good for the economy too, more people would be able to spend money on luxuries rather then just on debt
I cashed out some of my stock holdings last year and paid mine off in a lump sum, and it was expensive, but that doesn’t make me disdain other student debtors. It makes me even stronger in my view that student debt is predatory, designed to squeeze vulnerable people, and I don’t want to cast a vote for any politician who thinks it should exist.
Just in time for the republicans to blame Biden for the economic down turn late this year, early next year, after payments restart for 43 million.
Nooooooo.
Why can’t we have anything nice???
Because her emails.
I’m sooooo disappointed, but also sooooo not surprised.
Legally, Biden did have weak legal ground, but also legally then the decision shouldn’t have been allowed because the states who sued had, with unanimous decision by the Supreme Court, no legal ground at all.
NPR reports that the Biden admin will have a response and plan announced soon.
I listen to NPR but their impact statement is weak sauce… I’m sorry it sounds like 6 figure speak.
Impact: Roughly 1 in 8 Americans will have to restart loan payments as soon as September.
Nothing to see here folks, just move along. No, the impact is people choosing between food and meds, the mental burden of loans on their neck (after being told by every fiber of the US that education = more income), further inability to purchase housing, choosing between rent and living in a car.
But irongamer student loans didn’t cause all that! No, they are just another shovel load of dirt on the grave of the American dream. Many of these individuals are increasing their education so they can afford food AND meds, or afford to own a home let alone rent these days. Many other individuals are increasing their education to move humanity forward in technology, humanities, and sciences.
But irongamer they took the loans on themselves! Sure, with the pressure of just about every fiber of the US saying get an education to make a difference or make more money. Worse yet are those that are attempting to help the country by continuing their education, only to have the system (honestly mostly republicans) spit on them during an event like a pandemic.
The timing is perfect for republicans to play their economic down turn card when repayments start late this year. Watch for that card late this year or early next year after 43 million repayments start.
So, folks get back to making payments to your yacht lord. Think of the poor fellow with 4 houses and the inability to exist in all of them at once! Weep for the individual that can already put food on the table and afford the meds to treat their ills.
It is just a loan restart… nothing to see here.
It was not legally weak as an argument. The Secretary of Education has a right to modify or waive loans. The Supreme Court basically has said that this was neither of these things, when it was arguably both.
I’m in my mid-40s and I didn’t go to college – I was one of the last generations where you didn’t HAVE HAVE HAVE to have an advanced degree to qualify for something like an admin assistant position.
I truly hope that the younger generations take this as an opportunity to stand up for themselves and stop feeding into the notion that everyone needs advanced degrees. It’s absurd. If no one has a degree, then they can’t demand that people have degrees. Degrees should be for engineers, doctors, people with advanced careers. Past that, it’s simply a money making scheme for colleges and a bullshit bill of goods that they’re selling to people who cant, and shouldn’t have to, pay for it.
Framing here’s a bit off. You shouldn’t have to go to school - sure… as a requirement… but the big thing that’s completely being missed (as we have been taught that college is for “fancy” jobs) is that in other decent countries… there is no cost to it.
Advanced educated populaces are seen by non - “authoritarian-run-shit-holes” as something that makes a country more economically competitive in an increasingly global job market.
Whether it’s being paid to learn on the job training with a welding apprenticeship subsidized by taxes, or being able to go to medical school via tax-subsidized funds that don’t create artificial barriers to entry for the poor for no other reason - it’s a good thing for advanced education (and pre-school and every other form of education) to be publicly funded.
It’s especially dismaying when you look at plans for states like Arizona to “stipend” for private education and rid them of public education.
The idea of giving a stipend for education isn’t a bad thing. It’s actually a great idea.
But compounded with the fact that historically private schools are more than happy to raise tuition and how historically certain demographics are cherry picked as more or less deserving of receiving funding, it’s clear that the policies they are aiming to lower homeschooling requirements, pump money into private religious schools, and lower education quality/specifically teach what they see is worth teaching.
And the 10 states you’d expect to implement this are making moves to do so.
But… those who do go to university and get a degrees will earn more in their lifetimes than those who don’t. Why should bus drivers have to subsidize the education of lawyers?
Looks like there’s at least some safety net from Biden. https://www.politico.com/news/2023/06/29/biden-safety-net-student-borrowers-00104131
Still, this whole decision is absurd. It’s sad that SCOTUS decisions are effectively bought and sold with this court.
- Hot Saucerman ( @dingus@lemmy.ml ) English9•11 months ago
EDIT: I have now had a chance to see Biden’s televised statement. I understand he plans to switch modes and use the Higher Education Act to wipe away student debt. I take back what I said, that’s at least still trying to fight for us, although I think he could still go further, like reducing interest rates to zero.
He should be dropping interest rates to zero. If this is his idea of a saving grace when his original promise didn’t pan out, he’s got another thing coming. This is a joke that makes it seem like he expected this outcome and didn’t really have a problem with it.
When will these motherfuckers actually fight for us?
Imagine if politicians actually kept campaign promises. I’m with you - these people are elected to represent us, why the fuck are they rolling over instead of fighting?
They have no incentive to fight. Republicans have become a party of misanthropic genocidal christian nationalist zealots, Democrats need only do literally nothing and they’re better than the opposition. Just look at how both Hillary and Biden were marketed - “we’re not Trump!”