- cross-posted to:
- hackernews@derp.foo
- cross-posted to:
- hackernews@derp.foo
You must log in or register to comment.
Re: the title… Yeah no, owners of an expensive property are not only not in the “rich” class, they’re likely working class as much as gig drivers and cashiers. Unless they liquidate this asset and actually go live somewhere LCOL where they can live off of the labour of others, they’re still working class.
Exactly, articles like this are just confusing the meaning of class.
What makes you a member of “the working class” is that you are forced to sell your labour to survive. Fullstop. A tradesperson, and a lawyer, and a burgerflipper are all in the same class from that point of view.
As soon as your accumulated capital becomes large enough that you earn your income only as a result of your capital, then you are no longer working class, and that’s when your interests diverge from the average worker and average homebuyer or renter.
A landlord with no other job, the major shareholders of a profitable business, a wealthy heir, those people make their money by siphoning value off of other people’s work without actually needing to spend their time on work.
Long story short: I have no problem with a 50 year old plumber with a large family who legitimately uses that 4500 sqft house.
My issue is with Karen who used dad’s money to buy 8 properties to airBnB them and insists she get special treatment because her business risks didn’t pan out.
As soon as your accumulated capital becomes large enough that you earn your income only as a result of your capital, then you are no longer working class, and that’s when your interests diverge from the average worker and average homebuyer or renter.
Interestingly, almost everyone in government is a member of the capitalist class, largely because people that sell their labour can’t afford the time, let alone the money, to run for office.
In case you wondered why the interests of labour are grossly underrepresented in government, despite that vast, vast majority of both citizens and voters being of the working class, this is why.
That is the point though, if like the article says l, 1/5th of owners have an investment property, they could sell it and still live in the current place and have a ton of cash. or sell both and move to a cheaper city and retire. Compared to people struggling to save for a mortgage in this crazy market.
1/5th of owners have an investment property, they could sell it and still live in the current place and have a ton of cash
That’s fair, and the article goes through a few key points that I agree with. The article title is just clickbait, but annoying because it’s alienating. I don’t think it makes sense to write a headline based on 1/5th of that group being land speculators.
It made us both click on it :)
- shiveyarbles ( @shiveyarbles@beehaw.org ) 6•7 months ago
That doesn’t make any sense. If you have a million dollar house, you can borrow against it or sell it like any other asset. Yes you’re rich.
What if you have already “borrowed against it” and the thing you bought is the house itself? You know, a mortgage. How is a regular family with a mortgage not middle class?
Any age considerations here? 50+ year olds with no pension whose entire net worth is tied up in their home are not middle class?
A retired couple that have a reverse mortgage on their home to supplement their insufficient income are not middle class?
Honestly, even a regular person that busted their ass to pay off their house and who eventually bought a run-down property that they poured all their free time for years to fix up and rent out is not suddenly a member of the 1%.
You know what, I “own” the house my 4 kids call home. I owe pretty close to what it is worth and I can barely afford anything else with mortgage rates where they are ( certainly more than rent would be ). It needs some repairs that are going to force me to borrow from somewhere. I work two jobs ( decent ones ) trying to keep it all going. If I lose the house, I will end up with a net worth lower than a homeless person. And I have dipshits on the Internet lashing out at my wealth and privilege. For the love of God, who are you people?
For the love of God, who are you people?
People who have no idea how mortgages work. People who dont grok that 99% of “homeowners” pay a bank every month just like a renter pays a landlord and can still get the boot if they fail to do so. People who are mad and lashing out in the wrong direction like teenagers.
“Owning” the home my family lives in does not make me rich, it means I took on a huge debt. Now if they want to have a discussion about investment properties then I am all ears.
- shiveyarbles ( @shiveyarbles@beehaw.org ) 2•7 months ago
Lol nobody thinks a mortgage is an asset, it’s a liability duh.
We’re using different definitions of the word “rich”. In my definition, the one I personally see as more useful because it aligns with class struggle and shared policy interests, having a bunch of wealth parked in a passive asset is not enough to tip you over to the group of people who benefit from inequality.
On the “sell it like any other asset”, you still have to live somewhere, those places cost money. On the “borrow against it”, now you’ve got debt (that costs money to have), I guess your saying anyone with that much money should be able to make more money off it via leverage than they use?
When i think rich, i think doesn’t have to work, but maybe that’s independently wealthy.
Right? How is it “any other asset” when you need it to live?
So in that case the middle class were always “rich” by your definition
If you’re dicing things up that way, there’s no middle class in the first place.
:-) the middle class is the subset of the working class that has no food insecurity but has a lot of social & image insecurity
But like the rest of the working class, the middle class is one or two tragedies away from becoming homeless and marginalized, despite the lack of awareness regarding so
That’s as good a definition as any I guess.
Of course there is no middle class!
I disagree. Homeowners of multi-million-dollar properties have something others really want — property — but they also usually don’t actually OWN the property; they have mortgages.
And if they sold their property, some of them would be wealthy, but they’d also be homeless. And as soon as they attempted to buy another property (or even rent), they’d be back to having very limited disposable income.
So yeah; they’re still middle class. Someone else is holding the purse strings; the purse is just bigger.
For anyone who purchased a house in the last 5ish years sure. Much longer than that and they are sitting on a whole lot of equity.
Yes if they sold the house they would have 1/2 - 1 million dollars in cash and be homeless. But that’s a lot of dollars better than all the other people who currently also don’t own a home and don’t have all that cash.
Which is sorta the point the article is trying to make.
Yeah; I agree with that point, but not how they couched it — those people are still middle class.
The real kicker is that all the people who currently don’t own a home and don’t have the cash… are lower class. Despite thinking of themselves as middle class.
I don’t agree with that take.
Those house owners likely fall into upper middle class rather than middle class.
Another way to look at it. Depending on who you ask middle class roughly covers household income of about 75k-150k
If one of those home owners sold their home and made 1 million in equity, that money could be expected to make them ~50k a year. For many current home owners that hypothetical raise would push them above the middle-class bracket.
“We’re not middle and lower class, we’re all working class”
Most home owners, if they cash out their home, and either rent or downsize, will still absolutely need to work to eat, and if they don’t they will find themselves homeless before long.
For that small portion that could actually live on the equity from downsizing their housing, yeah, they are upper class, but there are a lot fewer of those than you would think. For a single person, a million in equity (50k a year) might get you by, but not luxuriously and not safely, and most houses are owned by couples though (so cut that in half), and many have dependents.
(50k a year) might get you by, but not luxuriously and not safely
I am sure it is possible to find a deal on a rental somewhere out in the bush, but in (or near) the city a 2br place will eat up half your monthly allowance.
1 million in equity, that money could be expected to make them ~50k a year
Except that they will need to take the lion share of that and buy a new also-very-epensive home. Certainly wont leave a lot of investment cash.
Did you not read the earlier comments in this thread? That very point was already addressed.
The point the article is trying to make is that after selling the house, even after mortgage is settled, these homeowners have a lot of cash. Much more than their renter peers who are in the same position (houseless) and trying to find something they can afford.
The point above seems obvious when it’s put like that, but it’s still hard for people to grasp.
This is why the article argues that people who are in the privileged position of having huge equity in their house need to also consider what that does to their wealth class, even if they themselves don’t believe it. A lot of home owners who have had a house for 10-15 years (and even more who paid off their house years ago) have no clue how much harder it has gotten for middle class income people to buy houses.
Ownership rates are around 65%, but mortgage rates in Canada are only about 30%.
So less than half of homeowners have a mortgage, and another good chunk of those mortgages were small to begin with and are approaching being paid off.
You don’t need to sell the house to benefit from owning it or it having a higher price either. You get to live in it for the cost of taxes and maintenance, that’s a massive amount of freed up monthly cash flow. The house value being higher means you’re paying less comparable to someone who has to rent at current market values (like a young adult moving out)
It would be less beneficial to own the house if the value was lower and rents were dirt cheap.
I certainly agree. Seeing as all property values skyrocketed in the past few years, those whose homes are now worth $1 million only kept up with everyone else.
Seeing as over 60% of Canadians own their home, that means that the rise of property costs merely widened the gap between those that own and those who rent. While the rise of property costs certainly isn’t a good thing, those who own property realistically aren’t any better off than they were before.
What’s the statscan definition of homeowner? Aren’t myself and my partner considered owners because we live with my parents in their house, so there are 4 “homeowners” living in the house.
I could be wrong but I remember reading what they consider a homeowner does not match what common sense says it is. Please point me in the direction of something if I’m wrong, I’ve tried looking but can’t find anything.
That’s a great question, and I can’t seem to find an answer. I got my information from stats Canada, but I can’t seem to find how they define a home owner.
Looks like it’s people who report ownership on their taxes, i.e. legal owners. So either one or both parents would be a “homeowner”, depending on whether it’s singly or jointly owned, but other adult tenants wouldn’t be (unless they were partial owners).
My wife and I had to beg, borrow, and move 2 hours outside Toronto to afford our first home. Yes we own our home and yes we are better off compared to 5 years prior, but we are FAR from being wealthy. Even if we look at the average home owners who don’t have a mortgage, most of those people again are better off but not wealthy. I feel like this article is trying to shift the blame away from the top 0.1% and put it on the slightly better off but still struggling population.
Yup. This article is trying to turn the conversation in to another battle against eachother rather than the ones who are actually fucking us all.
I’ll just leave this here to further my point.
https://www.readthemaple.com/canadas-top-0-01-of-earners-saw-income-growth-of-30-in-2021/
What does an article about the top 0.1% have to do with home ownership? Are you for real?
EDIT: I misunderstood this post. I thought it was somebody calling out the homeowner as rich ( I had just come off another comment and was reeling ). I realized after I posted that the poster was responding to himself.
How do you get a home with a mortgage?
A lot of people in this thread are claiming that homeowners are not really rich. A bunch are citing some Marxist definition of “rich” or raising the bar to “never having to work again”. OK, fine: they’re “rich enough” to be a problem, then.
The truth is, homeowners in Canada have enormous power, both economic and political, and they have been advocating for policies at every level of government that have both exacerbated the housing crisis and grown their own wealth.
“But they’re working class because they can’t enjoy their wealth without selling their home!”
That’s just not true. Homeowners enjoy enormous privileges at the cost of renters, most notably blocking new developments, which homeowners do with passion. Their mortgages are guaranteed by the government, subsidized effectively at the cost of taxes by non-homeowners, i.e. renters. And homeowners have enormous generational wealth to pass on, which if we don’t address, will cause an economic caste system to permanently root itself. Yes, this is real wealth, causing real social problems. This article is right to call it out!
They are middle class. In fact, there is no middle class, they are working class!! They do not own their own means of production, they are wage slaves like everyone else.
I can’t tell if you’re joking or not. Poe’s Law.
If you own a $3.5 million home in Vancouver, or you’re complaining about not being able to rent out four condos on AirBnb like one woman in the article, then, no, you’re not middle class.
That isn’t the definition of working class, or middle class
