Reddit has stopped working for millions of users around the world.
https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/reddit-down-subreddits-protest-not-working-b2356013.html
The mass outage comes amid a major boycott from thousands of the site’s administrators, who are protessting new changes to the platform.
On 12 June, popular sub-Reddits like r/videos and r/bestof went dark in retaliation to proposed API (Application Programming Interface) charges for third-party app developers.
Among the apps impacted by the new pricing is popular iOS app Apollo, which announced last week that it was unable to afford the new costs and would be shutting down.
Apollo CEO Christian Selig claimed that Reddit would charge up to $20 million per year in order to operate, prompting the mass protest from Reddit communities.
In a Q&A session on Reddit on Friday, the site’s CEO Steve Huffman defended the new pricing.
“Some apps such as Apollo, Reddit is Fun, and Sync have decided this pricing doesn’t work for their businesses and will close before pricing goes into effect,” said Mr Huffman, who goes by the Reddit username u/spez.
“For the other apps, we will continue talking. We acknowledge that the timeline we gave was tight; we are happy to engage with folks who want to work with us.”
In response to the latest outage, one Reddit user wrote on Twitter: “Spez, YOU broke Reddit.”
Website health monitor DownDetector registered more than 7,000 outage reports for Reddit on Monday.
Some users were greeted with the message: “Something went wrong. Just don’t panic.”
Others received an error warning that stated: “Our CDN [content delivery network] was unable to reach our servers.”
Update: Seems to be resolved for most users
Think of the “Lemmyverse” as the ground floor in relation to your Reddit experiences. Like a new MMO when comparing with the maturity of WoW. Some things will feel a little awkward for not having the polish, but there are other mechanics that are new and engaging. The more people who engage on Lemmy, Beehaw, et. al., and the longer the engagement, the better the experience will get. I think of it more like a diamond in the rough, instead of it being a “lesser” version of Reddit.
The difference here is that your investment (of your time) can’t be undercut by a greedy CEO. A fediverse is “self healing.” It’s like setting up a mesh - one node could go bad but the network itself will survive.
This is why I’m hoping Lemmy can resist against some of the Reddit-specific culture that I think would dampen the experience here. Animosity towards emojis, creating echo-chamber communities/subreddits, the air of smug self-righteousness, discussion as something one can ‘win’ etc.
Redditors in general aren’t bad, but a lot of vocal users had it in their heads that they were somehow better than people who used other platforms, and staked lines to maintain that cultural divide. Some of them concluded they were better than other redditors; turning communities into Us vs Them tribalism, until they would fracture into r/subreddit and r/truesubreddit.
Lemmy is not Reddit. It had a culture and it had users before the API shuffle; it’s an opportunity to start fresh. It’s not appropriate to expect Lemmy turn into Reddit, with all the unpleasantness that entails, and at the expense of the lemmings that were already here.
I’m quite honest about it; I spent years on Reddit too. I’m a redditor. But being here on Lemmy has been such a wonderful breath of fresh air, the ‘I disagree but I’ll respectfully explain why’ that Reddit was missing for years. I can feel how miserable modern Reddit is in comparison and I really hope we don’t recreate it.
You know, as a person who has never been in a “true” subreddit or a cj sub or a meme sub, I really do not mind those who wish to be so. They are doing their own thing. They have their own norms and expectations and that is where they go to be comfortable. So what?
And do you really think100% of those people literally only went to those subs and never contributed anywhere else? Nah, they were on the needlework sub posting their stitches or posting pictures of clouds or whatever.
We do not all have to be in one big group… I do not understand this fantasy. It is really OK to have different venues for different ideas and ways of being; that is one of the magics of online life in fact. It is possible to have little weird niches, even of smugness. One of the joys in life, which is dripping from the above comment and countless others I have been reading here. :D
Let me share with you what I’m thinking of when I talk about ‘true’ subs, as I understand it’s a broad statement. I can offer a perspective that is more nuanced, if longer to read. I’ll bold the key statements.
I understand that when subs get large enough, groupthink emerges; people voting up/down not based on whether a comment contributes meaningfully, but whether or not they agree or feel good about it. Thus even constructive minority voices are drowned out.
The reason the splintered subs could be a problem is that it often left the disruptive people to represent entire ideas, for better or for worse. It fractures movements that should otherwise have common goals into smaller and smaller slices that are unwilling to co-operate towards otherwise shared goals.
The one that comes to mind for me is r/childfree. It started out as a resource for those who’d chosen a child-free life to find support, collate a list of recommended doctors that recognised body autonomy (its often very difficult to get sterilised, especially if you’re younger and/or don’t already have several children), how the workforce treated them differently for being child-free (such as expecting them to cancel their plans and sacrifice their time off for parents on short notice), impact on their social lives, etc.’
However, over time it stopped being pro childfree lifestyle choices, and support for a group that is often seen as ‘selfish’; and started becoming anti child lifestyle choices. The frontpage became mostly rants, filled with terms like ‘crotchfruit’, ‘breeder’, etc. What was once a community of a minority lifestyle trying to find support and legitimacy gave way to anger and tribalism.
Eventually enough of the users that consider choosing to have children to be an equally valid lifestyle choice - merely one they’d chosen not to live - slowly started lurking, unsubbing, or otherwise becoming invisible. Anti-child/‘breeder’ rhetoric became more and more prevalent. Eventually, r/truechildfree was founded to do what r/childfree used to - collate resources and support for those who have chosen a child-free life in a world where children are considered ‘opt out’. Thus childfree users split into pro-child and anti-child tribes.
Which is lovely for r/truechildfree and its users (I am child-free, but I like children; I just recognise I am not equipped to raise them). But it meant that the largest and most visible sub, r/childfree, became almost only child-haters, and an already maligned community often considered ‘selfish’ is now represented by absolutists that are no longer willing to respect people who disagree.
I understand that it is the nature of humanity, once pushed, to push back. I understand why those who see mistreatment in the workplace or socially for their choice to be child free would be upset, same as anything we hold close to our hearts. That pain is why the r/childfree support group came to exist in the first place.
But it is diversity of opinion that makes discussion so interesting, that allows us opportunity for growth, that has us looking at the ways we are similar instead of fighting over the ways we are different.
I think the anger of those in the new r/childfree is real, valid, legitimate.
I think the users of r/truechildfree’s discomfort with how that anger was displayed is also real, valid, legitimate.
I wish we’d looked for a better way to handle it than for letting communities devolve into absolutism, though. Whatever your reasons for not choosing to have children, you still deal with the same stigma; it’s a shame to have people who are struggling against the same chains to schism over the metal they’re made of.
What you’re describing is polarization within a community transforming it into an echo chamber, driving out much of the community. Sure, truechildfree formed out of people who still wanted a community based around that aspect of themselves, but they’re not the reason for the split - they’re a symptom. For every user that made the journey to truechildfree, there’s probably 3-10 that just unsubbed, and another 5 that just stopped participating
My personal example is AITA. It started off as a group judgement based on the morality of the situation, but in the last few years people have become obsessed with “rights”. I actually got tempbanned for a situation where a douche told a woman that by joining trivia night in a small town bar she was ruining guys night. I responded to someone saying “IDK why your bf wasn’t happy about how you handled it”, and I basically said “yeah, he’s the asshole, but clearly this is extremely important to him, and saying screw you I have every right to be here while he storms out didn’t just ruin his night, it soured the evening for his friends who tried to stop him. That’s not going to make you any friends in your new town, and a little compassion could’ve diffused the situation”. It’s hard to put into words (and that’s just the most salient example, I probably got more negative karma there than everywhere else put together), but the community moved from what’s the right thing to do into what’s your legal rights
As far as I know, there’s no trueAITA - the community just morphed into something I find toxic. The nuance was gone, and it became something very different to the sub I loved participating in. I almost unsubbed, but instead I mostly just would start writing a comment before deleting it and moving on.
I think fractured, smaller communities help with this more than anything. Humans generally adjust their morality based on their peers - and the bigger the community, the more the loudest voices begin to feel like they’re expressing the opinion of the majority.
If 10% of a large community upvotes a certain viewpoint, it takes all of the top slots. It’s a weakness of the popularity-based ranking system - a relatively small voting block easily dominates the discussion. The moderates just ignore it, because they disagree but not enough to actually fight it out
But force people together in a smaller, more diverse group, and they moderate each other. The trick is, you can’t do it through polarization - you can’t fragment a community based on beliefs or you get echo chambers.
You just have to throw people together and make them talk it out. Opinions naturally balance towards the mean when the groups are smaller, and the most cohesive voices dominate when the group becomes large
Thanks for sharing your perspective with me, I really enjoyed reading it!
You raised an interesting point, the polarising of r/AITA, and its something I’ve noticed a few times… I now have a theory:
Personal experiences are far more likely to move towards emotional extremes.
Emotionally-invested people reach points of ‘black and white morality’ as they get larger, labelled as moral or immoral based on each viewer’s personal perspective.
I’m not saying our emotions are bad - if anything, many people are martyrs from their own emotional neglect - rather that many of us have not learned how to feel emotion authentically without treating them as objective judgements that justify action. (eg: this happened, I feel angry, therefore you wronged me, therefore I can defend myself, etc)
Humans are empathetic, which is truly wonderful. But we have two types of empathy:
So, back to your example of r/AITA - the NAH and ESH ratings are likely only being used by those engaging with cognitive empathy, (hopefully) recognising possible biases and advocating for communication that will satisfy both, as if they are a third party observing.
But for those who engage with their affective empathy, they project themselves into the story - if the story is evocative, they’ll readily side with OP. If the other’s experience angers them, they’ll readily call them out. They’re not here to offer perspective - only judgement.
So what does that mean for communities that want to prevent polarisation?
Haha, fuck if I know, I mostly just find the topic interesting and enjoy having a space to explore it. But I have a couple ideas, and would be curious to hear yours?
On Reddit, we see this black/white emotional judgement in upvotes/downvotes - though they are intended for whether a comment contributes something, they’re often used to define whether a comment is moral according to the voter’s values. Without downvotes, a comment that is bigoted can still be blocked/reported; but with them, a comment that says I think Witcher 3 is boring because- can be buried.
r/AITA also encourages a degree of absolutism by boiling down rulings to three letters, and groupthink by drawing an ultimate conclusion based on which one is most popular rather than presenting a table graph. Users can feel just and righteous - standing up for victim OP, or standing up for their victim.
So I don’t know if the problem is preventable, it’s a humanities issue; but I would consider some of the following:
Also, for those of you who read to the end, I really appreciate it. I know I ramble about stuff I find interesting, and despite editing out a bunch of waffle I know this is still really long. Would enjoy reading your equally long responses lol
Well first off, I like to write essays too, and I really have been enjoying the fact people here are way more willing to engage in longer posts.
I think you’re into something with how humans empathize (kind of interesting to me my first response when someone tells me about an conflict is to try to reconstruct the other person’s perspective). I think there’s definitely a lot to the way people think less critically the more emotional they get
But to round it all off, smaller communities help, but really it’s a matter of self-reinforcing social structures and the ways that social network mechanisms interact with them.
Outrage is the strongest driver for participation - so posts that incite the most outrage will get far more votes and replies in either direction. The outraged position will be far more likely to vote, while people who don’t feel as strongly are less likely to do so to the same extent. That skews the metrics most algorithms use to rank them, and so they get more visibility.
As this goes on, the group will shift - the outraged people only need to be a fraction of the group to seem like they’re the majority, and people put off by it are more than likely going to leave what looks like a total echo chamber (especially if people get nasty or personal)
The outraged group also starts to feel like their position is actually the average of the group (e.g. the silent majority), and they might shift even further, becoming more extreme - as people’s beliefs are relative to their perception of social norms.
This cycle repeats until it becomes so polarized a moderate opinion is seen as extreme, and might be attacked.
It’s a difficult problem to solve - the only easy metrics are going to be votes, comments, and maybe if people stay or leave after viewing. There’s more complex systems that might work - such as using ai to score additional metrics based on content, or (an idea bouncing around in the back of my head for a while) by profiling the users to try to boost consensus opinions to compete with “outrageous” ones. Obviously, this is way more computationally expensive and requires complex code that few will be in a position to understand (even if it were open source). These strategies could also be used to drive engagement or ad conversation at the expense of mental health (something that seems to be at least explored by some social media companies)
But small groups help in a very simple way -only so much media fits on a page. Even if the top comments are pure outrage porn, the other voices won’t be buried
The other solution is moderation (it’s in the name) - effective moderation of the tone and “rules of engagement” can tamp things down. But people generally don’t like to be censored, and it doesn’t scale - moderators are individuals, and too much to go through or dividing it up between larger groups of mods strips the nuance out of the process
Thanks for your response. I read it right away, but wanted to take time to reply properly.
You raise and expand on a couple really good (and important) points, that I think lead us down to an unfortunate ultimate conclusion. One that federation might survive, but that no monolithic platform possibly can.
It seems the best way to retain a community’s identity, constructiveness, and good faith is to keep is small and human-curated. Perhaps the ONLY way.
Which is understandable, but… also a real shame. It implies enshittification is actually inevitable - not just on the corporate side, but on the consumption side, too. One any collective becomes large enough that it reaches critical mass, their nuances and perspectives diffuse into a monolithic mob.
Things like voting systems, moderation guidelines etc… they’re really only capable of slowing down the inevitable. The system works in its infancy when ideas and populations are dispersed, but as time passes and they slowly collect into fewer and fewer key groups, they homogenise and radicalise, or split into individualised interest groups and echo chambers.
I see analogies for that in humans in general - in money and capital, in subcultures and conspiracies, in religions and spiritualities…
Humans haven’t been developed to live in networked communities this large. We’re not capable of comprehending populations this massive, we’re naturally-inclined to divide and sub-divide people into smaller and smaller categories so that we can label groups as Other according to their simplified descriptions.
In the case of Reddit, it means that like all social media platforms before it, and likely all platforms after… this is just part of its life cycle. It’s dramatic, but it is the nature of any sufficiently-large social platform to grow, lose quality as it gains quantity, reach critical mass… then rupture and slowly drain away its foul contents like a cyst.
Like a cyst, some platforms may drain on their own (MySpace), some never get large enough to and slowly disappear (Bebo), and some are lanced by their owners (Twitter). Some remain a foul abscess, on the precipice (Facebook).
Reddit may have been lanced, but its rot was inevitable, because it seems it is the amassing of people to the point of homogeneity that ultimately erodes the value of a platform. Whether it is lanced or dies a slow death is irrelevant; all is cyclical. We migrate, and migrate, and migrate; again and again we repeat ourselves.
What does that mean for kbin or Lemmy? It depends. If we recreate the monoliths by flocking to the largest instances - which we currently are, in kbin.social and lemmy.ml or beehaw.org - those larger instances will fester one day, too. The largest communities continue to draw yet more and more users, because we want to be around each other.
But there can at least be smaller ones, and we can use those smaller ones to see the largest ones. Smaller federated instances have the opportunity to remain small. A single federated server can fester, too. But the concept of federation itself at least will not. Users can live in their smaller communities, slowly secede from larger ones as they visibly evolve in ways that contrast their own home communities.
In this way, federated social communities may do either of the following:
Having mega-sites and mega-communities creates not a sense of community but a sense of knowledge.
There’s just SO much content that the good stuff just rises to the top eventually.
I also think the abundance of content is a part of the issue, but with no clear solution. People are bombarded with a thousand stories about a thousand different things going on in their country, the world, their city, etc… But we know that Humans can only reasonably maintain around 150-200 close personal relationships max that you would be able to converse with and empathize with and what not, Dunbars number.
Speaking of too much information to hold in my head at once…
Please use paragraphs!
yes good point. also fine!
all part of the ecosystem.
this shit talking the shit talkers thing is just so silly.
The thing you’re describing about smugness is kind of an overarching problem with tech literate people in general. Reddit began with a large portion of the users being those tech folks. They were also libertarians. This narrated the early culture, which led to the latter devolution. Keep in mind even today on reddit there were folks fondly remembering subs like jailbait, which was a top sub for years. They got downvotes but they were still there because they used to have a home there.
The federated system got its first big migration during Elon’s initial takeover of Twitter. That drove a certain left-wing element here early on, which hopefully will help establish a different culture going forward.
The other thing is that it’s inevitable with any community that a critical mass of shit happens. The bots, the cyber soldiers, the propaganda, the spam and the sex workers show up at a certain threshold. Whether the fediverse can effectively manage that remains to be seen.
I’m curious about it, yes. I think it’s easy for older users to claim their version was somehow ‘superior’ but all humans have their own perspective; it’s when we cease sharing those perspectives as respectful equals that I think we lose something.
To clarify I don’t equate being smug with being knowledgeable. I know people can struggle with feeling self-conscious in that respect and feel that they are somehow being judged if somebody talks about information as though they ‘should’ know it, and that’s not what I’m talking about.
No, I’m talking about when the discussion of ideas stops being about shared perspectives, and starts being about winning. When you don’t share knowledge because you love learning and want to share what you’ve learned, but because knowledge gives you status over the person you’re ‘teaching’.
So many questions that aren’t asked for fear we’d ‘look dumb’, so many ideas resistant to new evidence for fear we’d seem foolish, discussions not had because ‘they’ll assume I think they’re stupid’.
Learning is so wonderful! There’s so much to learn, a human is not capable of learning everything. There should never be shame in somebody knowing something you don’t know, and therefore there should never be superiority in sharing something you do know!
I celebrate a system that includes specialised people sharing their specialisations. My interest is in sociology and psychology; but I know very little about gardening or machinery for example, I would enjoy a person in those fields to share what they know about them.
This in particular has become a pretty important idea to me recently. To add on, I think that the more you learn the more you realize how much there is to know, and the more comfortable you get with the idea that knowing it all is just impossible. I think that late high school / early undergrad I was a bit of a smug ass about some things, really thought I knew everything (even though I would have told you I didn’t). I’m a year out from finishing a PhD now and never have I been more aware of how limited my perspective is.
Relatedly, I think, I used to avoid asking questions in classes because I didn’t want to look foolish if I asked an “obvious” question. Now I’m happy to risk looking a little silly by asking something basic, because I know how absolutely full of gaps my knowledge is anyway. I’ve definitely asked some silly questions recently, including one where I’m pretty sure my PI would have been within her rights to respond with something like, “You should really know this by now,” but hey! Now I do know!
I’m with you mate. The whole of Lemmy feels like being on one of those super small, niche subreddits where everyone was kind and thoughtful.
The bigger Lemmy gets, the less we’ll all like it.
I’ve been trying to use emojis regularly on here, mainly because I found the animosity weirdly exclusionary over on Reddit. My philosophy is to let others have their joy in small things. 😁
It’s a bit hard to subscribe to different instances if you’re on a separate server etc. I hope it gets easier. Once you’re subscribed though, it feels like reddit pretty much. Just hope the saints that post content start using Lemmy.
Yeah, it is a bit of a challenge. What I did was go to here: https://kbin.social/m/fediverse/t/4331 and find a community that I had as a subreddit. In the upper right corner, there is a blue dialog box and at the bottom there is an identifier. You copy that identifier, then go to your home server, go to search and paste that identifier. One of the search results should be that server, and you can then just hit “subscribe.”
It’s the same with Mastodon.
That said, if your server shows a listing of Communities, you might be able to subscribe from that list. Beehaw offers that.
It would be really useful if you could set your home instance and then have a direct link for adding/joining the communities that way. It’s still quite annoying to do all manually.
Or that all (subscribed?) servers automatically be notified and thus updated when a new community is created on another server.
A new MMO is a great description actually. Everyone is still working out how to use the damn thing and how to min-max their karma.