You might want to shape society into a certain way, and you might have compelling reasons for it… but it’s still an attempt at imposing your social model over others.
everybody wants to do this whether they admit to it or not (or whether they even think that’s the case or not). “you want to impose your social model over others” is simply not a meaningful way of assessing the world–by necessity and definition, the world must operate under someone’s social model, and obviously if i didn’t believe my social model was the best for the world i wouldn’t advocate for it to begin with. in my case, i don’t even have the luxury of moving to live under the system i want–i did not consent to living in a capitalist social model because i think capitalism is an exploitative economic system that is destroying the world, but there is literally no existing country in the world (besides maybe Cuba, which is under immense economic pressure at all times to liberalize its economic system and be like Vietnam or China) i would consider to be outside of that model.
by necessity and definition, the world must operate under someone’s social model
I disagree. The world could operate under a model shaped by the continuous contributions of everyone, without anyone necessarily imposing or convincing others to adopt their particular model. A model that could evolve as people independently decide what’s best for them in relation to everything.
As for capitalism… some countries have “being a welfare state” encoded in their constitution, above being capitalist. It may not be a full departure from capitalism (which doesn’t seem like what people want anyway), but some countries have implemented it to a decent degree.
The world could operate under a model shaped by the continuous contributions of everyone, without anyone necessarily imposing or convincing others to adopt their particular model.
what you’ve proposed here is not dissimilar to Stirnerite egoism and the issue with that is: Stirnerite egoism is exceedingly idealistic (to the point where almost nobody but Stirner has ever believed in it), so your proposal seems likewise troubled. arguably it’s not even possible–i would contend for example that you’re still just describing an ideology you want to impose on everyone else, and you have fallen into the trap of assuming it escapes the thinking you’re critiquing.
Close, but no. From the Wikipedia article, it seems like Stirner identified correctly that all actions stem from “egoism”, as in the internal motivations of anyone to act in some way… but failed to identify that this “egoism” can include acting following some laws, morals, or even altruistic actions, that an individual can perceive as beneficial for themselves.
There is no trap here, a society built on consensus, is whatever the individuals freely identify as positive for them. The biggest issue, is how to provide people with enough information so they can decide by themselves whether (for example) paying 5% more taxes in order to build some thousand miles of railroads, is something positive for their goals, or not.
The problem right now, is most people blindly defer making those decisions to others, on pure faith into whatever some corporation, party, or leader, influenced by whomever, decides to tell them… and once deferred (casting their votes), they’re out of the decision making process for years at a time.
There is no trap here, a society built on consensus, is whatever the individuals freely identify as positive for them. The biggest issue, is how to provide people with enough information so they can decide by themselves whether (for example) paying 5% more taxes in order to build some thousand miles of railroads, is something positive for their goals, or not.
this is what i mean by you falling into the trap of assuming what you’re proposing is distinct from anyone else imposing their ideology or social model on people. consensus necessarily begins and ends with people agreeing to a shared set of prescriptions on how society works, which is imposing both ideology and a social model through and through–it doesn’t stop being that because it’s agreed to or because you can hypothetically opt out of it. the Zapatistas operate under essentially this exact form of governance (and with the ability to opt out at any time) and if you described that as not an imposition of either social model or ideology that would be silly both to them and to any observer because the Zapatistas have very clear prescriptions of both.
everybody wants to do this whether they admit to it or not (or whether they even think that’s the case or not). “you want to impose your social model over others” is simply not a meaningful way of assessing the world–by necessity and definition, the world must operate under someone’s social model, and obviously if i didn’t believe my social model was the best for the world i wouldn’t advocate for it to begin with. in my case, i don’t even have the luxury of moving to live under the system i want–i did not consent to living in a capitalist social model because i think capitalism is an exploitative economic system that is destroying the world, but there is literally no existing country in the world (besides maybe Cuba, which is under immense economic pressure at all times to liberalize its economic system and be like Vietnam or China) i would consider to be outside of that model.
I disagree. The world could operate under a model shaped by the continuous contributions of everyone, without anyone necessarily imposing or convincing others to adopt their particular model. A model that could evolve as people independently decide what’s best for them in relation to everything.
As for capitalism… some countries have “being a welfare state” encoded in their constitution, above being capitalist. It may not be a full departure from capitalism (which doesn’t seem like what people want anyway), but some countries have implemented it to a decent degree.
what you’ve proposed here is not dissimilar to Stirnerite egoism and the issue with that is: Stirnerite egoism is exceedingly idealistic (to the point where almost nobody but Stirner has ever believed in it), so your proposal seems likewise troubled. arguably it’s not even possible–i would contend for example that you’re still just describing an ideology you want to impose on everyone else, and you have fallen into the trap of assuming it escapes the thinking you’re critiquing.
Close, but no. From the Wikipedia article, it seems like Stirner identified correctly that all actions stem from “egoism”, as in the internal motivations of anyone to act in some way… but failed to identify that this “egoism” can include acting following some laws, morals, or even altruistic actions, that an individual can perceive as beneficial for themselves.
There is no trap here, a society built on consensus, is whatever the individuals freely identify as positive for them. The biggest issue, is how to provide people with enough information so they can decide by themselves whether (for example) paying 5% more taxes in order to build some thousand miles of railroads, is something positive for their goals, or not.
The problem right now, is most people blindly defer making those decisions to others, on pure faith into whatever some corporation, party, or leader, influenced by whomever, decides to tell them… and once deferred (casting their votes), they’re out of the decision making process for years at a time.
this is what i mean by you falling into the trap of assuming what you’re proposing is distinct from anyone else imposing their ideology or social model on people. consensus necessarily begins and ends with people agreeing to a shared set of prescriptions on how society works, which is imposing both ideology and a social model through and through–it doesn’t stop being that because it’s agreed to or because you can hypothetically opt out of it. the Zapatistas operate under essentially this exact form of governance (and with the ability to opt out at any time) and if you described that as not an imposition of either social model or ideology that would be silly both to them and to any observer because the Zapatistas have very clear prescriptions of both.