when you oppress an entire population for 75 years
Palestinian territories were occupied by other nations, namely Egypt and Jordan, for decades during this time (a significant part of Palestine still is). This often repeated (and now outdated - it’s 2024) 75 years of oppression meme is highly misleading. Both Egypt and Jordan were not benevolent in their occupation and permitted the Palestinians under their rule no influence on how they were being governed. Furthermore, Palestinian refugees in various middle Eastern nations are essentially without rights for perpetuity. Please educate yourself on this instead of spreading falsehoods.
you create a situation that’s boo hoo difficult for yourself to deal with “humanely.”
What on Earth is that supposed to mean?
They could have done literally nothing
You can not be serious.
it’s not ideal
The hell it isn’t.
it wouldn’t have involved killing thousands of children
I am not denying that many children have died in Gaza, but the numbers released by Hamas are not reliable at all. Read this:
Also, see the above report on Hamas deliberately putting civilians, including children, at danger. Hamas is to blame, not Israel.
absolutely guaranteeing continued support for Hamas from this generation of Palestinians and maybe beyond
Support for Hamas in Gaza, according to independent Palestinian polls, is lower than in the West Bank, where almost no bombs are falling. This is patently false. The opposite would be happening if what you said were true.
In the aftermath of World War 2
We are not in the aftermath phase of this war yet. Israel is sending in aid into areas that they are controlling, which is all you can realistically expect of them. During WW2, the Allies - unlike Israel - deliberately targeted civilians with bombs and low-flying aircraft - my own grandmother recalled how she had to flee from a funeral that was attacked by strafing allied warplanes flying at tree level, low enough for them to see who they were attacking. Also, nobody demanded of the Allies that they supplied the enemy with food, water, power, electricity and telecommunications, all demands that are frequently uttered towards Israel.
Involve the international community
This was kind of necessary, because a global coalition had been fighting against the Nazis. There’s a reason why there were American, British, French and Soviet judges at the Nuremberg trials. There is no international coalition fighting in Gaza. It’s a totally different kind of war.
Ensure that anyone accused of this crime would have a chance to defend themselves against the charges with legal representation
Yahya Sinwar used to be in an Israeli prison for the abduction, torture and murder of several Palestinians and Israelis. He had received a fair trial with representation and in prison, he was able to get a degree from the University of Tel Aviv. One day, he complained about vision problems. Israeli doctors discovered a tumor in his brain and removed it, saving his life. He was released in 2011 as part of an exchange to free a hostage held by Hamas and ended up as the mastermind behind the October 7 attacks. One of the surgeon’s nephews is among the civilians Hamas abducted into Gaza.
This man received a fair trial and treatment for his abhorrent crimes and yet, once released, he orchestrated one of the worst terrorist attacks in history. How do you deal with people like this?
Took the “innocent” (relatively speaking) civilians of the country, made some effort to rebuild their country, and carefully set up structures which would address the root causes that had led to the breeding ground for hatred that had been created where the problem had festered in the first place.
The Nazis were only in power for 12 years. While they indoctrinated many - and I recall from my elderly relatives that some of the hate they were taught as schoolchildren remained with them for their entire lives - they did not have the decades upon decades of time that Palestinian extremists had to indoctrinate the children of their people.
In order to remove the Nazis from power, in order to eliminate them as a threat, much of Germany had to be razed to the ground and it needed to be occupied for decades. Millions were killed, millions were displaced. Those who survived and rebuilt had very little interest in dealing with the past. The process of denazification that followed took many decades and was only getting into full swing once the children of those who had experienced WW2 as adults started to ask serious questions. “What did you do during the war, mom/dad?” became an uncomfortable staple of many family dinners in the late '60s. The '68 revolution ousted many former Nazis out of positions of power in West Germany, against a state that chose to react to this with violence and repression, until the pressure became overwhelming. The modern German culture of remembrance, the Germany as we know it today as a tolerant, pluralistic nation with an honest approach to its past was born in those days.
Hamas need to go first, then there needs to be a benevolent occupation and a complete rewiring of Palestinian society, to the point that at some point, children are beginning to ask uncomfortable questions to their parents. Only then can we start to talk about concessions towards Palestine.
with an oppressive open-air prison
Gaza was never an open-air prison. This is yet another propaganda talking point that you are repeating, without ever having bothered to check its veracity. I encourage you to look into what life in Gaza was like before the war. The only oppressors there were Hamas.
I’m not excusing any murder, kidnapping, or rape of the innocent on October 7th. The people who did it should be punished.
Two sentences. That’s all you have to say about the people responsible for this war, its continuation and worst atrocities. You only vaguely state that they should be punished, but don’t appear to have thought about how that’s supposed to happen.
and somehow we managed to react to that without starving millions of children
1.170.000 civilians died in Germany during WW2, many of which through bombs, but a significant portion of these died from starvation. The Allies were not sending over food during the war. After the war, hundreds of thousands more died from starvation, exposure and disease, especially in 1946 and 1947, when the entirety of Germany was directly occupied. There was aid being sent at that point, but it was wholly insufficient. Please educate yourself before making statements like these. You aren’t exactly doing your credibility any favors with this.
continuing an endless cycle of suffering
Did you know that there was a point in time, up until well into the 1970s, when the borders between Palestinian and Israeli territories were very open? There was almost complete freedom of travel, which citizens from both sides of the border used. There are still some older Israelis who recall going to restaurants in Gaza. Terrorism conducted by ruthless opportunists ended this, terrorism fueled by pure hatred, by virulent antisemitism deliberately destroyed the tiny sprouts of hope and peace that were sprouting. None of the violence that followed would have happened without massacres like the Munich attack.
Israel is not innocent in this conflict, far from it. I’m not denying the Nakba, I’m not denying the everyday suffering of Palestinians, I would never state that they shouldn’t do more, I will never be a supporter of the current government, but you are making the serious mistake of portraying the Palestinians, which are their own people with agency, with the ability to choose their leaders and their futures, as these hapless children that are perpetually being bullied around. Don’t infantilize them like that. They have a shared responsibility for this continued conflict and its time they start building a future for themselves.
Part 2 (of 2, thankfully):
Palestinian territories were occupied by other nations, namely Egypt and Jordan, for decades during this time (a significant part of Palestine still is). This often repeated (and now outdated - it’s 2024) 75 years of oppression meme is highly misleading. Both Egypt and Jordan were not benevolent in their occupation and permitted the Palestinians under their rule no influence on how they were being governed. Furthermore, Palestinian refugees in various middle Eastern nations are essentially without rights for perpetuity. Please educate yourself on this instead of spreading falsehoods.
What on Earth is that supposed to mean?
You can not be serious.
The hell it isn’t.
I am not denying that many children have died in Gaza, but the numbers released by Hamas are not reliable at all. Read this:
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers
Also, see the above report on Hamas deliberately putting civilians, including children, at danger. Hamas is to blame, not Israel.
Support for Hamas in Gaza, according to independent Palestinian polls, is lower than in the West Bank, where almost no bombs are falling. This is patently false. The opposite would be happening if what you said were true.
We are not in the aftermath phase of this war yet. Israel is sending in aid into areas that they are controlling, which is all you can realistically expect of them. During WW2, the Allies - unlike Israel - deliberately targeted civilians with bombs and low-flying aircraft - my own grandmother recalled how she had to flee from a funeral that was attacked by strafing allied warplanes flying at tree level, low enough for them to see who they were attacking. Also, nobody demanded of the Allies that they supplied the enemy with food, water, power, electricity and telecommunications, all demands that are frequently uttered towards Israel.
This was kind of necessary, because a global coalition had been fighting against the Nazis. There’s a reason why there were American, British, French and Soviet judges at the Nuremberg trials. There is no international coalition fighting in Gaza. It’s a totally different kind of war.
Yahya Sinwar used to be in an Israeli prison for the abduction, torture and murder of several Palestinians and Israelis. He had received a fair trial with representation and in prison, he was able to get a degree from the University of Tel Aviv. One day, he complained about vision problems. Israeli doctors discovered a tumor in his brain and removed it, saving his life. He was released in 2011 as part of an exchange to free a hostage held by Hamas and ended up as the mastermind behind the October 7 attacks. One of the surgeon’s nephews is among the civilians Hamas abducted into Gaza.
This man received a fair trial and treatment for his abhorrent crimes and yet, once released, he orchestrated one of the worst terrorist attacks in history. How do you deal with people like this?
The Nazis were only in power for 12 years. While they indoctrinated many - and I recall from my elderly relatives that some of the hate they were taught as schoolchildren remained with them for their entire lives - they did not have the decades upon decades of time that Palestinian extremists had to indoctrinate the children of their people.
In order to remove the Nazis from power, in order to eliminate them as a threat, much of Germany had to be razed to the ground and it needed to be occupied for decades. Millions were killed, millions were displaced. Those who survived and rebuilt had very little interest in dealing with the past. The process of denazification that followed took many decades and was only getting into full swing once the children of those who had experienced WW2 as adults started to ask serious questions. “What did you do during the war, mom/dad?” became an uncomfortable staple of many family dinners in the late '60s. The '68 revolution ousted many former Nazis out of positions of power in West Germany, against a state that chose to react to this with violence and repression, until the pressure became overwhelming. The modern German culture of remembrance, the Germany as we know it today as a tolerant, pluralistic nation with an honest approach to its past was born in those days.
Hamas need to go first, then there needs to be a benevolent occupation and a complete rewiring of Palestinian society, to the point that at some point, children are beginning to ask uncomfortable questions to their parents. Only then can we start to talk about concessions towards Palestine.
Gaza was never an open-air prison. This is yet another propaganda talking point that you are repeating, without ever having bothered to check its veracity. I encourage you to look into what life in Gaza was like before the war. The only oppressors there were Hamas.
Two sentences. That’s all you have to say about the people responsible for this war, its continuation and worst atrocities. You only vaguely state that they should be punished, but don’t appear to have thought about how that’s supposed to happen.
1.170.000 civilians died in Germany during WW2, many of which through bombs, but a significant portion of these died from starvation. The Allies were not sending over food during the war. After the war, hundreds of thousands more died from starvation, exposure and disease, especially in 1946 and 1947, when the entirety of Germany was directly occupied. There was aid being sent at that point, but it was wholly insufficient. Please educate yourself before making statements like these. You aren’t exactly doing your credibility any favors with this.
Did you know that there was a point in time, up until well into the 1970s, when the borders between Palestinian and Israeli territories were very open? There was almost complete freedom of travel, which citizens from both sides of the border used. There are still some older Israelis who recall going to restaurants in Gaza. Terrorism conducted by ruthless opportunists ended this, terrorism fueled by pure hatred, by virulent antisemitism deliberately destroyed the tiny sprouts of hope and peace that were sprouting. None of the violence that followed would have happened without massacres like the Munich attack.
Israel is not innocent in this conflict, far from it. I’m not denying the Nakba, I’m not denying the everyday suffering of Palestinians, I would never state that they shouldn’t do more, I will never be a supporter of the current government, but you are making the serious mistake of portraying the Palestinians, which are their own people with agency, with the ability to choose their leaders and their futures, as these hapless children that are perpetually being bullied around. Don’t infantilize them like that. They have a shared responsibility for this continued conflict and its time they start building a future for themselves.