Two key congressional Democrats have given their approval to allow the Biden administration to proceed with what is believed to be the biggest weapons package for Israel, expected to be worth more than $18 billion and include some 50 F-15 fighter jets.
Just in case you thought maybe the Dems had finally seen the light after Rafah. Nope! How about even more bombs for Israel?
Throwing gasoline at a fire is not going to put it out.
The US and NATO recently authorized Ukraine to use Nato controlled weapons offensively. That is a global escalation that involves Nato member states for coordination. If you don’t think the escalation is growing then you aren’t actually paying attention.
There has been peace talks but there has been western pressure to decline the deals. The US doesn’t give a shit about what happens to Ukraine. Come on, they don’t even care about us (americans), their own citizens. Ukraine has been proxy to the US for a while and the US will use whatever proxy they have to do battle with Russia no matter the collateral damage.
There is a lot of propaganda on both sides of this conflict but everyone on lemmy and reddit gobble up the western propaganda without a doubt. Let’s put away the military boners and try for some actual fucking diplomacy.
The US backed coup in 2014 and the threat of NATO expansion on it’s borders are some fairly obvious pieces of that puzzle but everybody here just claims “russian propaganda” when those facts are brought into the discussion.
Are you seriously calling a populist uprising a “US backed coup”, implying the US had a hand in it, simply because the US ideologically supported their goals?
NATO expansion is not a justification for invading another country, especially a non-NATO one. Ukraine has the right to self-determination and freedom to associate with whomever they want, and Russia doesn’t get to tell them who they can or can’t be friends with.
I can only assume based on this that you philosophically support the Bay of Pigs operation, as the US saw Soviet expansion near them as a threat.
Putin didnt make his move on Crimea because he was trying to defend Russia, he did it because he knew that his plans to reassimilate Ukraine were threatened by the new Ukranian government. And the 2022 expansion of the invasion just proves that.
Fitting but a little ironic to bring that up. The Bay of Pigs and everything that lead up to that is a great example of what the US gets up to globally and exactly the kind of thing that makes me question the western narrative. They (the CIA) didn’t just stop doing shit like that.
That being said, I don’t support Russia either. I am not apologizing for their actions just providing pieces of explanations. Let’s not pretend that they haven’t had NATO expansion as a big red line on their list for a long time. The threat of more NATO at their border within an arms reach of their major cities is obviously fair. But I do think they are using that as an excuse while at the same time I think the US is taking major advantage of this situation. That is, in my opinion, a problem for peace.
Sure, countries have the right to self determine but you can’t ignore the diplomatic consequences of that. Shit doesn’t exist in a bubble. And the populist uprising was not so free from western influence. Come on thats CIA playbook 101 😅
Anyways, it is obviously a complex situation but the instant overnight prowar stance everyone has had since day 1 of this invasion is steeped with propaganda and people are immediately shutdown for questioning any part of the narrative and being labeled “putin’s puppet”. That is my real issue with this discourse. You cannot look at history and honestly think America is the good guys at pretty much any point post-ww2 so question the fuckin narrative.
I appreciate your willingness to question the narrative and push for peace even while everyone seems to have a real appetite for war. I found this article from 2014 that discusses the US’s influence in the 2014 protests. The cited experts are Yale University history professor Timothy Snyder and retired CIA analyst Ray McGovern. They discuss a recorded phone conversation where two US State Dept officials are going over who they want in power in Ukraine. Snyder seems pretty convinced that the 2014 protests and elections were genuine, regardless of State Department conversations about who they want to win. Then you have McGovern, who has experience in this sort of thing, saying that the CIA does not really do this sort of thing anymore, and so the State Dept does it instead. And as i’m reading, he seems quite convinced that the US was placing its thumb on the scales, and he seems to agree that maybe this should be resolved by everyone coming to the table.
McGovern’s most convincing piece of evidence is this:
The other thing is, you know, Professor Snyder talks about the parliamentary vote, voting in the new government. Well, he must know that that was a rump vote. I think it was—I think it was unanimous, something like 253 to nothing, which, you know, really is sort of a nostalgic look back at the votes that I used to count in the Soviet Union. There’s something very smelly here.
But I looked it up, and it seems like in 2014, the Prime Minister Yatsenyuk was elected via a parliamentary election where he got 371 of the 372 members that voted. Which sounds suspicious, but you should factor in the other 78 members that were either abstaining or not voting. Is it strange? Sure, but here’s another theory: the protests happened with no or very little Western influence, but the elections happened with lots of implied Western influence. There was a lot of crisis and turmoil, protests and corruption combined with Russian soldiers on the doorstep. The Parliament was under a lot of pressure to act swiftly and decisively to ease unrest. So they picked up the phone when the US called, and listened to their advice. In this way, the US got the outcome it wanted, but not by particularly manipulative means. They just offered their advice, and the Parliament listened. And so, all of the anti or neutral-to-Russia Parliament simply fell in line, to bring stability to the country.
Now, I have no evidence of this. This is just my extended thoughts on the matter after trying to understand your point of view. I think the reason many are quick to defend Ukraine’s side in this conflict is that Russia has shown itself to be corrupt, fascistic, and manipulative in foreign and domestic affairs multiple times over the past decade or so. And in the context of what has happened and continues to happen, it’s hard to be sympathetic to Russia’s “position” when they’ve been shown to argue in bad faith over and over again. It’s impossible for us to know what the people of Crimea want because they live under an authoritarian regime. It’s impossible for us to make treaties and concessions to Russia because they always break them. Every barrier to peace seems to be created by Russia, so people side with Ukraine, the underdog that they know very little about.
It isn’t even apologetics, it’s just analysis that isn’t “russia bad america good”. My point in the other thread you called me out in is just as valid here, nobody can talk about this shit rationally without spewing western propaganda and even when actual facts and valid criticisms are brought up, this is the rhetoric people retort to. “This person said something that gives a sliver of doubt to the active liberal thought pattern therefore he must be a russian shill.”
I just have to assume you are a bunch of children or state actors at this point because it is infuriatingly ridiculous and naive.
Throwing gasoline at a fire is not going to put it out.
The US and NATO recently authorized Ukraine to use Nato controlled weapons offensively. That is a global escalation that involves Nato member states for coordination. If you don’t think the escalation is growing then you aren’t actually paying attention.
There has been peace talks but there has been western pressure to decline the deals. The US doesn’t give a shit about what happens to Ukraine. Come on, they don’t even care about us (americans), their own citizens. Ukraine has been proxy to the US for a while and the US will use whatever proxy they have to do battle with Russia no matter the collateral damage.
There is a lot of propaganda on both sides of this conflict but everyone on lemmy and reddit gobble up the western propaganda without a doubt. Let’s put away the military boners and try for some actual fucking diplomacy.
Does your diplomacy include Ukraine giving up land?
I generally stay out of these Ukraine discussions, but Russia is clearly the aggressor.
Unless you can justify what valid reason Russia had to attack Ukraine or what you mean by diplomacy, then it’s a non argument.
Russia clearly isn’t interested in discussions unless they involve surrendering…
The US backed coup in 2014 and the threat of NATO expansion on it’s borders are some fairly obvious pieces of that puzzle but everybody here just claims “russian propaganda” when those facts are brought into the discussion.
Are you seriously calling a populist uprising a “US backed coup”, implying the US had a hand in it, simply because the US ideologically supported their goals?
NATO expansion is not a justification for invading another country, especially a non-NATO one. Ukraine has the right to self-determination and freedom to associate with whomever they want, and Russia doesn’t get to tell them who they can or can’t be friends with.
I can only assume based on this that you philosophically support the Bay of Pigs operation, as the US saw Soviet expansion near them as a threat.
Putin didnt make his move on Crimea because he was trying to defend Russia, he did it because he knew that his plans to reassimilate Ukraine were threatened by the new Ukranian government. And the 2022 expansion of the invasion just proves that.
Fitting but a little ironic to bring that up. The Bay of Pigs and everything that lead up to that is a great example of what the US gets up to globally and exactly the kind of thing that makes me question the western narrative. They (the CIA) didn’t just stop doing shit like that.
That being said, I don’t support Russia either. I am not apologizing for their actions just providing pieces of explanations. Let’s not pretend that they haven’t had NATO expansion as a big red line on their list for a long time. The threat of more NATO at their border within an arms reach of their major cities is obviously fair. But I do think they are using that as an excuse while at the same time I think the US is taking major advantage of this situation. That is, in my opinion, a problem for peace.
Sure, countries have the right to self determine but you can’t ignore the diplomatic consequences of that. Shit doesn’t exist in a bubble. And the populist uprising was not so free from western influence. Come on thats CIA playbook 101 😅
Anyways, it is obviously a complex situation but the instant overnight prowar stance everyone has had since day 1 of this invasion is steeped with propaganda and people are immediately shutdown for questioning any part of the narrative and being labeled “putin’s puppet”. That is my real issue with this discourse. You cannot look at history and honestly think America is the good guys at pretty much any point post-ww2 so question the fuckin narrative.
I appreciate your willingness to question the narrative and push for peace even while everyone seems to have a real appetite for war. I found this article from 2014 that discusses the US’s influence in the 2014 protests. The cited experts are Yale University history professor Timothy Snyder and retired CIA analyst Ray McGovern. They discuss a recorded phone conversation where two US State Dept officials are going over who they want in power in Ukraine. Snyder seems pretty convinced that the 2014 protests and elections were genuine, regardless of State Department conversations about who they want to win. Then you have McGovern, who has experience in this sort of thing, saying that the CIA does not really do this sort of thing anymore, and so the State Dept does it instead. And as i’m reading, he seems quite convinced that the US was placing its thumb on the scales, and he seems to agree that maybe this should be resolved by everyone coming to the table.
McGovern’s most convincing piece of evidence is this:
But I looked it up, and it seems like in 2014, the Prime Minister Yatsenyuk was elected via a parliamentary election where he got 371 of the 372 members that voted. Which sounds suspicious, but you should factor in the other 78 members that were either abstaining or not voting. Is it strange? Sure, but here’s another theory: the protests happened with no or very little Western influence, but the elections happened with lots of implied Western influence. There was a lot of crisis and turmoil, protests and corruption combined with Russian soldiers on the doorstep. The Parliament was under a lot of pressure to act swiftly and decisively to ease unrest. So they picked up the phone when the US called, and listened to their advice. In this way, the US got the outcome it wanted, but not by particularly manipulative means. They just offered their advice, and the Parliament listened. And so, all of the anti or neutral-to-Russia Parliament simply fell in line, to bring stability to the country.
Now, I have no evidence of this. This is just my extended thoughts on the matter after trying to understand your point of view. I think the reason many are quick to defend Ukraine’s side in this conflict is that Russia has shown itself to be corrupt, fascistic, and manipulative in foreign and domestic affairs multiple times over the past decade or so. And in the context of what has happened and continues to happen, it’s hard to be sympathetic to Russia’s “position” when they’ve been shown to argue in bad faith over and over again. It’s impossible for us to know what the people of Crimea want because they live under an authoritarian regime. It’s impossible for us to make treaties and concessions to Russia because they always break them. Every barrier to peace seems to be created by Russia, so people side with Ukraine, the underdog that they know very little about.
Thanks for the reasonable response, it was interesting to read. I guess it could make sense but wow how convenient 😅
Fire is not sentient. It doesn’t strategize. It can’t use your feelings about wanting to minimize it’s damage against you. Humans can, and do.
How much does Putin pay you?
lol I wish I got paid some money for trying to talk some sense into pro war idiots on the internet.
edit: For real though, why is that your reaction to literal facts? Some of you are too fucking gone to reason with 😅
Because you literally act like a mouthpiece with your constant apologetics for the aggression and war crimes of a tinpot dictator.
It isn’t even apologetics, it’s just analysis that isn’t “russia bad america good”. My point in the other thread you called me out in is just as valid here, nobody can talk about this shit rationally without spewing western propaganda and even when actual facts and valid criticisms are brought up, this is the rhetoric people retort to. “This person said something that gives a sliver of doubt to the active liberal thought pattern therefore he must be a russian shill.”
I just have to assume you are a bunch of children or state actors at this point because it is infuriatingly ridiculous and naive.