The US administration said that it had received ‘written assurances’ from Ukraine that it would use cluster bombs carefully. Nonetheless, the munition will provide an additional risk to civilians.
given how they’re practically used it’s not particularly likely that cluster munitions are going to disproportionately harm Russians
Yeah, russian soldiers. Ukraine has shown the utmost constraint when it comes to attacks on russian civilians. russia, on the other hand, has not. In fact, it has done the exact opposite - intentionally attacking civilian or Geneva convention protected targets instead of military ones.
And no, seeing how cluster ammunition is practically used, russian civilians are not going to disproportionately harmed. It’s going to be military targets which will be fucked up.
It’s going to be military targets which will be fucked up.
unless you have data i don’t, the article seems to pretty definitively refute this point. overwhelmingly the people impacted by cluster munition use are civilians (97% of casualties were civilians in 2021) both in and outside of Ukraine, and their usage has a very long tail of fatalities.[1] there is no reason to think that even if they’re tailored specifically to nebulous military use against Russian soldiers that won’t also be the outcome here, because it is literally everywhere else they get used.
Vietnam and Cambodia are the poster children for this: the countries still have have dozens of civilian fatalities a year from cluster bombing ordinance, and it’s been 48 years since the Vietnam War ended. ↩︎
• Preliminary data indicates at least 689 civilian casualties during cluster munition attacks in Ukraine during the first half of 2022.
So to summarize:
Nearly every cluster bomb being used worldwide is being used by Russians in Ukraine
Nearly every cluster bomb casualty is a civilian
Considering that Russia has an extremely well-documented history of specifically targeting civilians, regardless of munitions type, this seems like more of a Russia problem than a cluster bomb problem (at least to the point that it renders these specific statistics moot in a discussion about the general risks of cluster munitions, when used by militaries that are not as barbarous and murderous as the Russian military)
Yours is the only plausible rebuttal I’ve seen in this thread. I’m aware of how inhumane Russian military has been but I’ve also seen few (a small number) of stories when Ukranian military did something questionable.
Can you expand upon how the cluster munitions might be used and if there’s any oversight regarding their usage? (Which seems fair given how things turned out in Afghanistan).
And no, seeing how cluster ammunition is practically used, russian civilians are not going to disproportionately harmed. It’s going to be military targets which will be fucked up.
The issue with cluster munitions isn’t how they’re used, but what happens when a bomblet fails. Cluster bombs release hundreds to thousands of submunitions, and when one bomblet fails, it can remain armed and ready to detonate if/when someone comes by and bumps it, picks it up or runs over it with a tractor.
This can lead to issues long after the war is finished, as people are doing their own thing and get hurt or killed.
Yeah, russian soldiers. Ukraine has shown the utmost constraint when it comes to attacks on russian civilians. russia, on the other hand, has not. In fact, it has done the exact opposite - intentionally attacking civilian or Geneva convention protected targets instead of military ones.
And no, seeing how cluster ammunition is practically used, russian civilians are not going to disproportionately harmed. It’s going to be military targets which will be fucked up.
unless you have data i don’t, the article seems to pretty definitively refute this point. overwhelmingly the people impacted by cluster munition use are civilians (97% of casualties were civilians in 2021) both in and outside of Ukraine, and their usage has a very long tail of fatalities.[1] there is no reason to think that even if they’re tailored specifically to nebulous military use against Russian soldiers that won’t also be the outcome here, because it is literally everywhere else they get used.
Vietnam and Cambodia are the poster children for this: the countries still have have dozens of civilian fatalities a year from cluster bombing ordinance, and it’s been 48 years since the Vietnam War ended. ↩︎
From your linked pdf:
So to summarize:
Considering that Russia has an extremely well-documented history of specifically targeting civilians, regardless of munitions type, this seems like more of a Russia problem than a cluster bomb problem (at least to the point that it renders these specific statistics moot in a discussion about the general risks of cluster munitions, when used by militaries that are not as barbarous and murderous as the Russian military)
Yours is the only plausible rebuttal I’ve seen in this thread. I’m aware of how inhumane Russian military has been but I’ve also seen few (a small number) of stories when Ukranian military did something questionable.
Can you expand upon how the cluster munitions might be used and if there’s any oversight regarding their usage? (Which seems fair given how things turned out in Afghanistan).
The issue with cluster munitions isn’t how they’re used, but what happens when a bomblet fails. Cluster bombs release hundreds to thousands of submunitions, and when one bomblet fails, it can remain armed and ready to detonate if/when someone comes by and bumps it, picks it up or runs over it with a tractor.
This can lead to issues long after the war is finished, as people are doing their own thing and get hurt or killed.