4.6 million people voted for desantis, and 21 million people live in Florida. Less than a quarter of the people that live in the state voted him into office. It is deeply unfair to say “a lot of people voted him into office” because it ignores the people that are affected by this decision and either voted against it, can’t do anything about it, or just didn’t. I know you said most people don’t vote at all but Florida isn’t a monolith and it’s really important to remember that when things like this negatively affect millions of people that either didn’t want this to happen or had no say.
At some point, people need to take responsibility for their government. DeSantis won by 19 points with >50% turnout. That’s pretty convincing to me. Florida is no longer a swing state. GOPers moved their in droves because of DeSantis’ politics.
Sure, to an extent, but that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t also be empathetic to those of whom who are adversely affected by this and didn’t really have a say in the matter – kids are an example I brought up in another comment, but all of the victims of voter suppression as well. Florida should be responsible for platforming desantis but that doesn’t mean that florida deserves desantis.
You realise voter suppression is a thing right? It’s unfair to say these people asked for it. It’s also unfair to everyone stuck there and too poor to leave, or don’t want to leave because it’s their home.
1.4 million in florida have felony convictions, and a disproportionate number are minorities in florida. Then 1.8 million non-citizen immigrants in Florida, from Mexico or Cuba or other places in the Carribean. And that’s not including the people that didn’t vote because of local efforts of voter suppression, which is a nebulous number but still statistically significant.
The 21 million includes everyone, not just registered voters. Until 2015, I couldn’t vote because I wasn’t a citizen. Still had to live with the shitty policies that Floridian politicians passed into law.
By these people not voting, we assume that they are OK with how things are going in their state. In which case, they asked for it.
people have already chimed in but, as just one example of how not-clearcut this is: Florida essentially refused to implement a policy which was democratically passed that enfranchised felons. Florida has over 1 million felons, a disproportionate number of whom are black and would otherwise likely vote Democratic. when they finally had to implement the policy, they made it much harder for felons to be re-enfranchised (against the will of voters)—such that in practice, the state maintains a ban on voting while being a felon which disproportionately impacts Democratic voters. you cannot seriously blame people for the situation the state is in, except in a very abstract sense.
Unless I’m mistaken, the vast majority of the people who own houses, and therefore stand to lose them, are middle-class white people with no criminal record, not black people or felons.
i have absolutely no idea what point you’re trying to raise here when the context of the conversation is whether the people of Florida, collectively, deserve to suffer for voting in the wrong guy when:
the vast majority of them explicitly didn’t vote for the guy, and;
large—and literally decisive—numbers of them were legally disenfranchised from voting against the guy and continue to be disenfranchised under Florida law. DeSantis won the gubernatorial election in 2018 by approximately 32,000 votes against a million felons, many of whom are Black.
My argument is that the people who now stand to lose their homes are not the same people who have been disenfranchised.
Black felons did not vote for DeSantis, but the wealthy white law-abiding homeowners who are now losing their homes did vote for DeSantis, unless I’m mistaken.
My argument is that the people who now stand to lose their homes are not the same people who have been disenfranchised.
then that’s a fundamentally incorrect understanding of the situation and of how class and race disparities are going to play out during the climate crisis. white, middle-class homeowners aren’t going to lose their homes—and if they do they’re just going to move because they have the capital to do that even at a loss. the people who are going to lose their homes, or who will be stuck in their position even if they need to leave will overwhelmingly be Florida’s working poor and minority groups. this has been the story of every natural disaster in that part of the country. take, for example, Hurricane Harvey:
Among black Texans impacted by the storm, 60 percent say they are not getting the help they need. That compares to 40 percent of Hispanic respondents and 33 percent of white respondents.
Half of respondents with lower incomes say they’re not getting the help they need, compared 32 percent of people with higher incomes. The survey classified people into two income groups — those making double the poverty-level income and those making less than that threshold. Twice the poverty level is an income of $24,280 for a single person and $50,200 for a family of four.
Meanwhile, 27 percent of Hispanic respondents affected by Harvey said their previous homes remain unlivable. Twenty percent of black respondents and 11 percent of white respondents said their previous homes cannot be lived in. And 27 percent of Texans earning lower incomes say their previous homes aren’t safe, while only 9 percent of higher earners said the same thing.
The “not voting” thing is actually a little complicated.
First off - there are many people who don’t vote. The reasons are not always simple.
Yes there are lazy asshats who would support non-ghouls and could easily do it and don’t. You can shit on them.
But they aren’t necessarily the majority.
There are numerous hurdles that on their own aren’t tough, but that overlap and stack sometimes and when added up act as a significant obstacle that many just don’t see the benefit to trying to overcome :
Polling places aren’t open on weekends or holidays. And there really isn’t strong protections for workers being given time to wait in long lines to vote. Many people work 40+ hrs a week at places that - although legally technically have to give you time to go vote, really have middle management types that WILL retaliate against you in a way that is technically hazy enough that any sort of legal consequence for them doing so isn’t worth pursuing if you are barely getting by and making poverty-line income.
The Rs close polling stations ANYWHERE near poorer areas they can. That’s why places like Houston have like ONE polling station for a county with literal millions of voters. They know no one wants to stand for 4 hours in line in 105F Texas heat just to drop a ballot in a box that they also think won’t win because of how often the Rs like Cruz, Abbott, etc. keep winning or just holding on to their seats.
Democratic officials voluntarily water down their own legislation in a stupid attempt to “reach out” and seek middle ground, which only lessens the motivation for voters… like instead of “we’re going to wipe out all medical debt” you get stuff like “we’re going to allow voters to go to a website (that barely functions) and they can fill out a 12 page form that will allow them to apply for a 1-time partial percentage-based rebate that changes depending on your income and insurance information for the past 3 years.”
All this shit adds up to only make people feel discouraged or that their vote wouldn’t matter anyway, or that there’s nothing really to show up to fight for.
Yes that sucks, yes people should understand that by not showing up, they then FORFEIT various EXISTING rights like the right to an abortion… but that’s not how people think. People show up for a REWARD… not to defend what they already have but don’t know what they might lose.
Like - here’s my favorite way to help people better understand this because I get into arguments all the time about that last point :
In the US, people show up for Black Friday sales, because the reward they imagine they’ll get is a motivating factor. Now imagine if instead of getting a shitty 65" TV for 75% off, Best Buy said “come in on Black Friday and fill out a form to protect your right to get a refund within 90 days when products are defective.”
No one would show up. And when Best Buy then decided because no one showed up to fill out the form to now no longer allow refunds, suddenly would a bunch of assholes saying “TOLD YOU TO SIGN UP FOR THE BEST BUY PROTECT YOUR PURCHASES FORM! SUCKS TO SUCK LOLOLOL!” be in the right? Yeah… I guess… but - again - showing up en masse to do something that protects a possible loss isn’t how people generally think when making decisions to do or not do something that asks them to inconvenience themselves.
Yes that sucks, yes people should understand that by not showing up, they then FORFEIT various EXISTING rights like the right to an abortion… but that’s not how people think. People show up for a REWARD… not to defend what they already have but don’t know what they might lose.
Then I find it difficult to feel sorry for their losses. The history books are filled with people losing rights that they refused to defend, and we’re all taught the contents of those history books in school. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, and no one born in America has any excuse for not realizing this.
The history books are filled with people losing rights that they refused to defend, and we’re all taught the contents of those history books in school. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, and no one born in America has any excuse for not realizing this.
you simply have too much faith in the collective school system to teach these kinds of principles to everyone, particularly when Republicans are systematically attempting to gut public education in most of the country. most Americans, in any case, have an exceptionally warped understanding of what “freedom” is, and a lot of them do think it’s perfectly reconcilable (and in fact necessary) to be preserved through what Florida is doing right now.
you simply have too much faith in the collective school system to teach these kinds of principles to everyone, particularly when Republicans are systematically attempting to gut public education in most of the country.
This explanation doesn’t seem plausible. Most young people do not subscribe to Republican nonsense, and the gutting of public education wasn’t a thing yet when the older generations were in school.
most Americans, in any case, have an exceptionally warped understanding of what “freedom” is, and a lot of them do think it’s perfectly reconcilable (and in fact necessary) to be preserved through what Florida is doing right now.
Then they chose to believe lies, and they don’t have the excuse of never being exposed to the truth.
This explanation doesn’t seem plausible. Most young people do not subscribe to Republican nonsense, and the gutting of public education wasn’t a thing yet when the older generations were in school.
this is because most young people are so fatalistic about this shithole of a country that they literally reject the American conception of freedom—correctly, in my opinion—as psychotic and responsible for more human suffering than almost any other ideological premise in world history. it’s not that they want freedom, it’s that they want it destroyed because American “freedom” fucking sucks and so do the vast majority of people who swear by it.
Then it’s their responsibility to vote in the Democratic primary and yank the Overton window back where it belongs. Throwing up their hands and refusing to vote is a tacit endorsement of the very status quo they think they’re rebelling against.
And these are young, energetic people with the knowledge of the world at their fingertips, so what’s their excuse for not realizing this? I realized the importance of voting when I was their age, and I didn’t have the benefit of Wikipedia and insightful online commentary to guide me to that conclusion.
Agreed. I’m finding little patience for people being discouraged from voting or not being motivated by the Dems not doing enough. People need to grow up, be adults, and realize that whether you sit at home or not the election will happen. And you either get not doing enough, or you get literal fascists taking your rights away. These voters are not children who don’t know any better. The best part of requiring voters to be 18+ is each and every person who can vote is an adult. They need to act like it and do their damn responsibility. If the Dems aren’t doing enough then vote for more progressive Dems in the primary. But then not doing enough is not an excuse for allowing fascism to become implemented without taking action
We live in a country where at least forty million people (probably a lot more now, since that stat was from 2016) can’t afford to miss a day of work.
If taking a day off to vote means missing a rent payment, you wouldn’t vote either. The problem isn’t the voters, unless we’re talking about the 98% that keep voting Democrat or Republican no matter the record. The problem is that both major parties have made it deliberately inconvenient and difficult to vote in the first place.
They (collectively) voted him into office. A lot of people are going to be hurt, but then again most people don’t vote at all.
4.6 million people voted for desantis, and 21 million people live in Florida. Less than a quarter of the people that live in the state voted him into office. It is deeply unfair to say “a lot of people voted him into office” because it ignores the people that are affected by this decision and either voted against it, can’t do anything about it, or just didn’t. I know you said most people don’t vote at all but Florida isn’t a monolith and it’s really important to remember that when things like this negatively affect millions of people that either didn’t want this to happen or had no say.
At some point, people need to take responsibility for their government. DeSantis won by 19 points with >50% turnout. That’s pretty convincing to me. Florida is no longer a swing state. GOPers moved their in droves because of DeSantis’ politics.
Sure, to an extent, but that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t also be empathetic to those of whom who are adversely affected by this and didn’t really have a say in the matter – kids are an example I brought up in another comment, but all of the victims of voter suppression as well. Florida should be responsible for platforming desantis but that doesn’t mean that florida deserves desantis.
By these people not voting, we assume that they are OK with how things are going in their state. In which case, they asked for it.
You realise voter suppression is a thing right? It’s unfair to say these people asked for it. It’s also unfair to everyone stuck there and too poor to leave, or don’t want to leave because it’s their home.
You know kids are adversely affected by desantis’s policy and cannot vote, right? just as a single example.
Theres only ~5 million kids in Florida - that still leaves about 16 million people who are eligible to vote who didn’t.
1.4 million in florida have felony convictions, and a disproportionate number are minorities in florida. Then 1.8 million non-citizen immigrants in Florida, from Mexico or Cuba or other places in the Carribean. And that’s not including the people that didn’t vote because of local efforts of voter suppression, which is a nebulous number but still statistically significant.
“They said nothing, therefore they asked for it” isn’t a great opinion, friend.
The 21 million includes everyone, not just registered voters. Until 2015, I couldn’t vote because I wasn’t a citizen. Still had to live with the shitty policies that Floridian politicians passed into law.
people have already chimed in but, as just one example of how not-clearcut this is: Florida essentially refused to implement a policy which was democratically passed that enfranchised felons. Florida has over 1 million felons, a disproportionate number of whom are black and would otherwise likely vote Democratic. when they finally had to implement the policy, they made it much harder for felons to be re-enfranchised (against the will of voters)—such that in practice, the state maintains a ban on voting while being a felon which disproportionately impacts Democratic voters. you cannot seriously blame people for the situation the state is in, except in a very abstract sense.
Unless I’m mistaken, the vast majority of the people who own houses, and therefore stand to lose them, are middle-class white people with no criminal record, not black people or felons.
i have absolutely no idea what point you’re trying to raise here when the context of the conversation is whether the people of Florida, collectively, deserve to suffer for voting in the wrong guy when:
My argument is that the people who now stand to lose their homes are not the same people who have been disenfranchised.
Black felons did not vote for DeSantis, but the wealthy white law-abiding homeowners who are now losing their homes did vote for DeSantis, unless I’m mistaken.
then that’s a fundamentally incorrect understanding of the situation and of how class and race disparities are going to play out during the climate crisis. white, middle-class homeowners aren’t going to lose their homes—and if they do they’re just going to move because they have the capital to do that even at a loss. the people who are going to lose their homes, or who will be stuck in their position even if they need to leave will overwhelmingly be Florida’s working poor and minority groups. this has been the story of every natural disaster in that part of the country. take, for example, Hurricane Harvey:
The “not voting” thing is actually a little complicated.
First off - there are many people who don’t vote. The reasons are not always simple.
Yes there are lazy asshats who would support non-ghouls and could easily do it and don’t. You can shit on them.
But they aren’t necessarily the majority.
There are numerous hurdles that on their own aren’t tough, but that overlap and stack sometimes and when added up act as a significant obstacle that many just don’t see the benefit to trying to overcome :
Polling places aren’t open on weekends or holidays. And there really isn’t strong protections for workers being given time to wait in long lines to vote. Many people work 40+ hrs a week at places that - although legally technically have to give you time to go vote, really have middle management types that WILL retaliate against you in a way that is technically hazy enough that any sort of legal consequence for them doing so isn’t worth pursuing if you are barely getting by and making poverty-line income.
The Rs close polling stations ANYWHERE near poorer areas they can. That’s why places like Houston have like ONE polling station for a county with literal millions of voters. They know no one wants to stand for 4 hours in line in 105F Texas heat just to drop a ballot in a box that they also think won’t win because of how often the Rs like Cruz, Abbott, etc. keep winning or just holding on to their seats.
Democratic officials voluntarily water down their own legislation in a stupid attempt to “reach out” and seek middle ground, which only lessens the motivation for voters… like instead of “we’re going to wipe out all medical debt” you get stuff like “we’re going to allow voters to go to a website (that barely functions) and they can fill out a 12 page form that will allow them to apply for a 1-time partial percentage-based rebate that changes depending on your income and insurance information for the past 3 years.”
All this shit adds up to only make people feel discouraged or that their vote wouldn’t matter anyway, or that there’s nothing really to show up to fight for.
Yes that sucks, yes people should understand that by not showing up, they then FORFEIT various EXISTING rights like the right to an abortion… but that’s not how people think. People show up for a REWARD… not to defend what they already have but don’t know what they might lose.
Like - here’s my favorite way to help people better understand this because I get into arguments all the time about that last point :
In the US, people show up for Black Friday sales, because the reward they imagine they’ll get is a motivating factor. Now imagine if instead of getting a shitty 65" TV for 75% off, Best Buy said “come in on Black Friday and fill out a form to protect your right to get a refund within 90 days when products are defective.”
No one would show up. And when Best Buy then decided because no one showed up to fill out the form to now no longer allow refunds, suddenly would a bunch of assholes saying “TOLD YOU TO SIGN UP FOR THE BEST BUY PROTECT YOUR PURCHASES FORM! SUCKS TO SUCK LOLOLOL!” be in the right? Yeah… I guess… but - again - showing up en masse to do something that protects a possible loss isn’t how people generally think when making decisions to do or not do something that asks them to inconvenience themselves.
Then I find it difficult to feel sorry for their losses. The history books are filled with people losing rights that they refused to defend, and we’re all taught the contents of those history books in school. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, and no one born in America has any excuse for not realizing this.
you simply have too much faith in the collective school system to teach these kinds of principles to everyone, particularly when Republicans are systematically attempting to gut public education in most of the country. most Americans, in any case, have an exceptionally warped understanding of what “freedom” is, and a lot of them do think it’s perfectly reconcilable (and in fact necessary) to be preserved through what Florida is doing right now.
This explanation doesn’t seem plausible. Most young people do not subscribe to Republican nonsense, and the gutting of public education wasn’t a thing yet when the older generations were in school.
Then they chose to believe lies, and they don’t have the excuse of never being exposed to the truth.
this is because most young people are so fatalistic about this shithole of a country that they literally reject the American conception of freedom—correctly, in my opinion—as psychotic and responsible for more human suffering than almost any other ideological premise in world history. it’s not that they want freedom, it’s that they want it destroyed because American “freedom” fucking sucks and so do the vast majority of people who swear by it.
Then it’s their responsibility to vote in the Democratic primary and yank the Overton window back where it belongs. Throwing up their hands and refusing to vote is a tacit endorsement of the very status quo they think they’re rebelling against.
And these are young, energetic people with the knowledge of the world at their fingertips, so what’s their excuse for not realizing this? I realized the importance of voting when I was their age, and I didn’t have the benefit of Wikipedia and insightful online commentary to guide me to that conclusion.
Agreed. I’m finding little patience for people being discouraged from voting or not being motivated by the Dems not doing enough. People need to grow up, be adults, and realize that whether you sit at home or not the election will happen. And you either get not doing enough, or you get literal fascists taking your rights away. These voters are not children who don’t know any better. The best part of requiring voters to be 18+ is each and every person who can vote is an adult. They need to act like it and do their damn responsibility. If the Dems aren’t doing enough then vote for more progressive Dems in the primary. But then not doing enough is not an excuse for allowing fascism to become implemented without taking action
We live in a country where at least forty million people (probably a lot more now, since that stat was from 2016) can’t afford to miss a day of work.
If taking a day off to vote means missing a rent payment, you wouldn’t vote either. The problem isn’t the voters, unless we’re talking about the 98% that keep voting Democrat or Republican no matter the record. The problem is that both major parties have made it deliberately inconvenient and difficult to vote in the first place.