I just don’t agree with your sentiment. I understand the points you’re making are accurate reflections of history (modern and otherwise) but I don’t agree that it’s necessary to avoid labelling people when critiquing their behavior, regarding women or otherwise. Also “unable to learn from experience” is not analogous to “treatment is impossible”, which I assume is where you got the assumption that I was saying that from.
Edit: I see that the person originally responding to me in this discussion is a mod, so if they’d like to clarify that they explicitly want me not to use the words I have in the way I have here then that’s fine, but that’s not what happened here as yet, so yea. These are my feelings on the subject. I understand yours, but I don’t agree. I think what you’re suggesting casts a far wider net over the issue than is necessary. I think she’s a genuinely dangerous person with clear patterns of harmful pathological behavior and I don’t think it’s wrong or detrimental to all women to discuss it. I’m transmasc nonbinary, autistic comorbid with ADHD and chronic treatment resistant depression, and a whole host of other stigmatized and marginalized things as well, and I don’t think it necessarily harms the entire conversation of mental illness as a whole to point out that people can do bad things in conjunction with or because of their mental illnesses, I think it’s disingenuous to act like that’s not an aspect of mental illness at all just because people can ignorantly group all neurodivergence together. I feel like your perspective is more about circling the wagons to control the attack, which I understand, but I think it limits potential discussion without providing any actual meaningful benefit to the communities involved.
We can have discussion without resorting to armchair labels and namecalling towards people we think we know because they’re celebrities. You have no idea whether or not she’s a dangerous person. You only think you do. What is objectively dangerous is trying to convince others that she’s an insane psychopath because that’s your personal opinion. I’m disappointed that a fellow SA survivor wouldn’t realize this, and I hope you genuinely reflect on your opinion.
🙄 it’s gross that you hold your view in such high objective regard that you think it’s your place to admonish me for not agreeing with you
Also I do know she’s dangerous, not least of all because she’s (as recorded in public court documents regarding custody of her child) actively discussing the details of an alleged series of assaults with her young child to the point where he’s terrified of entering LA to see his own father and spends time drawing scary pictures of him.
yeah i guess i did extrapolate that point out further than you meant it. my bad. i think that labeling people isn’t really the point that i find aggravating, though. its applying clinical labels to people who don’t necessarily have those clinical conditions. like, is psychopathy really what’s going on here? can people really know that observing from afar? i don’t think so, and i think its at least a little bit irresponsible to make those sorts of claims about people because they do bad things. there is nothing intrinsically pathological about causing harm to other people. like, the fact that you seem to think you can identify “clear patterns of harmful pathological behavior” is mostly the thrust of my resistance. it certainly is harmful behavior, and it may very well be pathological, but frankly neither you or i are well positioned to make judgements about the mental health of strangers, in the same way we aught not assume people have a specific physical illness.
i think its probably good to point out that people can do bad things because of their mental illness, but we don’t have enough information to just say she has this specific mental illness because she did bad things. its kinda like speculating on the sexuality of public figures, or at least those two ideas feel similar in my brain.
It’s not just that her behavior is harmful, it’s that she’s creating a whole false reality around it and controlling multiple narratives from every possible perspective. She created/co-opted a movement to go along with the Manson allegations, she moved across the country with her son to reinforce her narrative and used that as a way to hurt her ex husband, she used her power in the role of a child’s mother to create a world in which there was a monster they must run away from at all costs to where the kid couldn’t even play outside in Tennessee because of the monster in LA… And whenever she’s confronted with the idea that what she’s done is harmful to anybody she rewrites or reinforces the narrative that she’s doing it for the right reasons and deflects any responsibility or awareness that she’s done anything wrong (for example, when it looked like she was going to lose custody she suddenly decided it was in the child’s best interest to go live with the father in LA, the very city she ran from in order to protect the very child she was taking away from LA).
I’m not saying everybody who hurts somebody is “pathological” or “psychotic”. I’m saying ERW specifically exhibits a lack of capacity for empathy, a total lack of self awareness or awareness of the effects of her behavior, and has no concern or even acceptance of those effects as reality when confronted with them, and what she does and how she is is characteristic of ASPD.
so if they’d like to clarify that they explicitly want me not to use the words I have in the way I have here then that’s fine
Yes that was the point of my comment being mod flagged. You’ve added additional context which helps but this probably isn’t the right venue for a conversation on the specifics of someone’s legal case and state of mind.
Oh I just assumed every post you make has that cuz you’re a mod, and I didn’t notice till later; when I did notice, I didn’t take your phrasing re: “probably” as a demand but a suggestion. Either way, point taken, thanks for letting me have a discussion anyways.
Yea sadly the UI isn’t great and there’s a bunch of different apps and everything is new. There’s badges for mod and admin, and then there’s a way to speak as a mod. So if you see all 3, that’s an admin speaking “officially”.
In general if someone’s asking for you to change your behavior- mod, admin, or even a regular user, you should probably take their suggestion if it’s reasonable to do so and not asked from a place of intolerance. It helps to demonstrate to the other person that you’re responding in good faith because you’re willing to accommodate their needs.
I just don’t agree with your sentiment. I understand the points you’re making are accurate reflections of history (modern and otherwise) but I don’t agree that it’s necessary to avoid labelling people when critiquing their behavior, regarding women or otherwise. Also “unable to learn from experience” is not analogous to “treatment is impossible”, which I assume is where you got the assumption that I was saying that from.
Edit: I see that the person originally responding to me in this discussion is a mod, so if they’d like to clarify that they explicitly want me not to use the words I have in the way I have here then that’s fine, but that’s not what happened here as yet, so yea. These are my feelings on the subject. I understand yours, but I don’t agree. I think what you’re suggesting casts a far wider net over the issue than is necessary. I think she’s a genuinely dangerous person with clear patterns of harmful pathological behavior and I don’t think it’s wrong or detrimental to all women to discuss it. I’m transmasc nonbinary, autistic comorbid with ADHD and chronic treatment resistant depression, and a whole host of other stigmatized and marginalized things as well, and I don’t think it necessarily harms the entire conversation of mental illness as a whole to point out that people can do bad things in conjunction with or because of their mental illnesses, I think it’s disingenuous to act like that’s not an aspect of mental illness at all just because people can ignorantly group all neurodivergence together. I feel like your perspective is more about circling the wagons to control the attack, which I understand, but I think it limits potential discussion without providing any actual meaningful benefit to the communities involved.
We can have discussion without resorting to armchair labels and namecalling towards people we think we know because they’re celebrities. You have no idea whether or not she’s a dangerous person. You only think you do. What is objectively dangerous is trying to convince others that she’s an insane psychopath because that’s your personal opinion. I’m disappointed that a fellow SA survivor wouldn’t realize this, and I hope you genuinely reflect on your opinion.
🙄 it’s gross that you hold your view in such high objective regard that you think it’s your place to admonish me for not agreeing with you
Also I do know she’s dangerous, not least of all because she’s (as recorded in public court documents regarding custody of her child) actively discussing the details of an alleged series of assaults with her young child to the point where he’s terrified of entering LA to see his own father and spends time drawing scary pictures of him.
yeah i guess i did extrapolate that point out further than you meant it. my bad. i think that labeling people isn’t really the point that i find aggravating, though. its applying clinical labels to people who don’t necessarily have those clinical conditions. like, is psychopathy really what’s going on here? can people really know that observing from afar? i don’t think so, and i think its at least a little bit irresponsible to make those sorts of claims about people because they do bad things. there is nothing intrinsically pathological about causing harm to other people. like, the fact that you seem to think you can identify “clear patterns of harmful pathological behavior” is mostly the thrust of my resistance. it certainly is harmful behavior, and it may very well be pathological, but frankly neither you or i are well positioned to make judgements about the mental health of strangers, in the same way we aught not assume people have a specific physical illness.
i think its probably good to point out that people can do bad things because of their mental illness, but we don’t have enough information to just say she has this specific mental illness because she did bad things. its kinda like speculating on the sexuality of public figures, or at least those two ideas feel similar in my brain.
It’s not just that her behavior is harmful, it’s that she’s creating a whole false reality around it and controlling multiple narratives from every possible perspective. She created/co-opted a movement to go along with the Manson allegations, she moved across the country with her son to reinforce her narrative and used that as a way to hurt her ex husband, she used her power in the role of a child’s mother to create a world in which there was a monster they must run away from at all costs to where the kid couldn’t even play outside in Tennessee because of the monster in LA… And whenever she’s confronted with the idea that what she’s done is harmful to anybody she rewrites or reinforces the narrative that she’s doing it for the right reasons and deflects any responsibility or awareness that she’s done anything wrong (for example, when it looked like she was going to lose custody she suddenly decided it was in the child’s best interest to go live with the father in LA, the very city she ran from in order to protect the very child she was taking away from LA).
I’m not saying everybody who hurts somebody is “pathological” or “psychotic”. I’m saying ERW specifically exhibits a lack of capacity for empathy, a total lack of self awareness or awareness of the effects of her behavior, and has no concern or even acceptance of those effects as reality when confronted with them, and what she does and how she is is characteristic of ASPD.
Yes that was the point of my comment being mod flagged. You’ve added additional context which helps but this probably isn’t the right venue for a conversation on the specifics of someone’s legal case and state of mind.
Oh I just assumed every post you make has that cuz you’re a mod, and I didn’t notice till later; when I did notice, I didn’t take your phrasing re: “probably” as a demand but a suggestion. Either way, point taken, thanks for letting me have a discussion anyways.
Yea sadly the UI isn’t great and there’s a bunch of different apps and everything is new. There’s badges for mod and admin, and then there’s a way to speak as a mod. So if you see all 3, that’s an admin speaking “officially”.
In general if someone’s asking for you to change your behavior- mod, admin, or even a regular user, you should probably take their suggestion if it’s reasonable to do so and not asked from a place of intolerance. It helps to demonstrate to the other person that you’re responding in good faith because you’re willing to accommodate their needs.