Another player who was at the table during the incident sent me this meme after the problem player in question (they had a history) left the group chat.

Felt like sharing it here because I’m sure more people should keep this kind of thing in mind.

  • I mean… You live in a world where magic healing exists. Why would anyone be blind when you can find a sorcerer, wizard or cleric (or even a spoony bard like Volo) and restore your sight in at least 20 different ways? 🤔

    This was a bit of weird shit in Star Trek with Geordi, too. They can literally grow him new eyes (and do eventually) but the visor is also cool, and the rule of cool wins.

    It’s not so much that a disabled person being realistic is unfun; it’s that it doesn’t seem to fit the world itself which kills suspension of disbelief if you understand how the game world works. You’d have to work extra hard at giving a believable reason for this person to be disabled and not have gotten healed through magical means.

    •  Y|yukichigai   ( @yukichigai@lemmy.zip ) 
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      7 months ago

      There’s usually both a time and severity limit to what magic can heal. It works differently depending on the system, but generally the longer it’s been since the injury or the worse the injury was, the more advanced magic required to fix it. You can’t just dump more magic on it either, it’s gonna take more talented spellcasters with specific skills, e.g. the difference between someone with first aid knowledge and a trained neurosurgeon. Bad enough and you’re getting into “there is literally one person in the entire world who can do this and they’re busy” territory.

      That’s assuming it’s a simple injury and not a curse or the like. That’s also assuming it’s not a disability from birth; regeneration isn’t going to do a damn thing if the body’s natural state is lacking a sense or an appendage.

    • Does disease exist in a fantasy world? Why would anyone be sick when you can find a sorcerer, wizard or cleric (or even a spoony bard like Volo) and restore your health in at least 20 different ways?

      1. You need to be able to find someone with the skill to do so.

      2. I need to be able to pay them to do so.

          • Even in D&D, they could be playing their own custom worlds. I’ve never actually played in an official setting unless I was DM’ing (because I love Forgotten Realms). Obviously if they are playing a low-fantasy setting with minimal magic or without magic it wouldn’t generate the questions of “why didn’t you just X?”

            • Personally I play DnD in a Forgotten Realms inspired (Mostly Forgotten Realms but like a number of years in the future with a new Mystra)

              I’m the DM and one of the things I brought up was basically “Yeah there’s magic, but it sure as hell ain’t evenly distributed”

              Wizards are a secretive bunch, and the higher level the spell the rarer it is to find let alone someone who can cast it

    • In 5E, Lesser Restoration is free, so no one should really be blind, deaf, paralyzed, or poisoned. If they’re missing a limb, though, Regenerate needs a vial of Holy Water that costs 25gp. For a commoner who makes 1sp a day, that’s a lot.

        • In my setting if someone was born blind, paralyzed, etc, Regeneration wouldn’t fix it. Regenerate brings you back to your normal state, which even your perceived self plays a role in.

          For example the blind man mentioned in my post description) lost his eye sight decades prior. He has fully accepted his blindness to the point his perceived self is blind. A wandering adventurer tried to cast Regenerate on him to heal the old mans wounds he sustained helping the adventurer in a time of need years prior and when it failed to work on his eye sight the old man informed him that it’s who he was. “The helpful old blind man bring aid to those that need it.” And the old man continued on his way happier knowing he helped someone else that day.

      • Lesser Restoration is free

        If you’ve got someone willing to cast it for you for free, perhaps. But according to the PHB, most NPCs will charge far more than a typical peasant or low level adventurer could afford.

        Hiring someone to cast a relatively common spell of 1st or 2nd level, such as Cure Wounds or Identify, is easy enough in a city or town, and might cost 10 to 50 gp (plus the cost of any expensive material components).

        And that’s if you decide a spell that primarily exists to cure fairly rare conditions is common enough to fit in that category.

      • Regenerate is also a 7th level spell - depending on the setting, the number of people capable of that kind of magic might not even exist outside of the confines of the party, or if they do, they’re more preoccupied with the stuff worthy of NPCs with at least thirteen class levels.

      • 5e “blindness” probably assumes blindness from a curse or spell on otherwise functional eyes since that’s how I’ve seen the condition being afflicted. As you mentioned, losing a limb is a different thing so if they lost their eyes, had their eyes physically destroyed in some way, or were born with non-functional eyes I would rule it as the latter case at my table in those instances.

      • Lesser restoration doesn’t cure permanent blindness, deafness, or paralysis. And it doesn’t work on all forms of poison.

        Lesser restoration specifically ends one condition that can be blindness, deafness, paralysis, or poisoned. Permanent traits of your character aren’t conditions, and not every poison inflicts the poisoned condition.

    •  Kichae   ( @Kichae@lemmy.ca ) 
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      This seems to treat “magical healing” as if it’s just bespoke body modification. So, by the same logic, why would anyone ever have a STR score that was less than fucking Hercules’?

        • because some people are born blind? reasonably their “natural state” would then be a blind person, which means that healing can’t restore their sight, because it was never there. Unless that “healing” is just body modification based on an ideal, in which case, why wouldn’t it be able to turn someone into an adonis?

          • Also a thing I have in my DnD setting is that someone’s personal image of themselves plays a role in regeneration

            For example let’s say someone who is blind has fully accepted it about themselves and someone for some reason needs to cast regeneration on them. It wouldn’t restore their eye sight because they have embraced it as a part of themselves.

            In the case of the blind man the party met they were blind for decades, they had fully accepted it about themselves. Not even bringing up the difficulty of getting to the point of knowing (or finding some who knows) Regeneration (a very very powerful spell) he had no use for sight in his mind. He lived his life as fully as anyone else. It was a part of him. So if someone cast Regeneration to save his life he’d still be blind.

            Spells affecting willing creatures is a funny term in my eyes. Willing can be “willing to a point” is as valid as fully willing.

          • I can understand the argument that it’s a form of modification rather than simple “healing” or “regeneration”, but it’s still taking an organ that either evolved or was designed (depending on the world’s/race’s mythology) to see, and enabling it to do so; whereas “bespoke” modifications sound like they’d be entirely arbitrary.

      • So, by the same logic, why would anyone ever have a STR score that was less than fucking Hercules’?

        I’m sure if the rules allowed them to, they would.

        The spells that can cure blindness, deafness or fix paralysis and other things are very clearly in the rules as well as how they are integrated into the world itself within the DM handbook.

        And yes, there are even spells that are basically body modification. Fuckin’ Wild Shape. Becoming a lich. Etc.

        Instead of taking this to mean you shouldn’t play a disabled character, work around it and answer the questions that will inevitably pop up as to why. Being born that way and not wanting to erase your identify is still a good reason for most of those. But if you’re like the able-bodied edgelords I’ve seen who want to play as a fighter who was blinded in battle… Well.

    •  neptune   ( @neptune@dmv.social ) 
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      77 months ago

      While this is a fair point, it isn’t the decisive argument. Do people ever starve to death in a fantasy world? Well many classes can cast goodberry so no one should have to starve in a fantasy world.

      • That’s one of my favorite things about Dnd. “The World” is the DM’s interpretation of a world or their own world. Even if they were running an otherwise stock Forgotten Realms setting they can add as much steampunk or magipunk elements as they please, including superpowered wheelchairs for adventurers. In your world there would probably be something different than wheelchairs if there’s anything because it really just comes down to preference.

        • I believe the point was that it didn’t fit the setting for the main characters of a typical fantasy plot—not being well-suited to traveling significant distances in rough terrain, among other things—not that they wouldn’t have the basic tech. You don’t see many active-duty soldiers or mercenaries fighting in wheelchairs and it seems likely the same considerations would apply to adventurers. You can come up with settings where it isn’t totally implausible, but it will require some careful thought and ingenuity.

    • Just because there’s magic doesn’t mean it’s evenly distributed. And finding someone capable of casting higher level magics isn’t an easy feat.

      I play in a slightly modified DnD 5e Forgotten Realms (some years in the future with a new Mystra)

      Basically Regenerate would bring you back to your normal state or the state you perceive as your normal state.

      Some examples:

      You’re born without an arm, if someone cast Regenerate on you you wouldn’t grow a new arm. That arm was never there. To get that arm would take a True Polymorph. Which is not only a very high level spell, it’s really not easy to find someone who could cast it.

      In the case of the blind man the party met, they were blind for decades after losing his eyesight saving his family. He had fully accepted it about himself. He had no use for sight in his mind after living so long without it, it was a part of him. He perceived his normal self as blind. So if someone cast Regeneration to save his life he’d still be blind. (And someone had years before the party met him, but that’s a story for another time)

      Basically: learning magic is hard, the components are typically expensive, and finding someone who is already skilled in magic enough to cast it is hard. Not to mention the costs associated with it.

      “Go to the nearest big city, there’s bound to be someone who can.” Yes but would they be willing to? How much would they charge? How long would you have to travel to get there? Is that feasible?

      “What about Lesser Restoration, a second level spell? That one’s easy to get to.” Maybe in a big city, but out in a rural area that would likely still be tough as someone has to have the necessary prerequisites to get to that. You have to hone that craft and learn it from somewhere.

    • A world where disability exists has more options for interesting characters than if nobody was disabled.

      Or does not a single pirate in your world have an eye patch or peg leg?

    • Geordi actually was addressed at one point, basically he found the extra sensory abilities the visor gave him to feel natural, and removing those extra senses would be like removing a limb for him

  • I mean that really depends on the world you are set in: if magic is everywhere/can heal anything someone who is blind could break immersion IF there is no good reason (he doesn’t want to see for personal reasons, it’s a curse and can’t be removed etc.)

    However if magic treatment is rare/expensive of course there would be lots of disabled people (monster attacks, accidents, diseases, etc.)

    Obviously thats not the problem here(the guys just a dick) but it’s something i run into a lot when designing worlds/characters: a lot of our real world problems fall apart if introduced into a magical setting.

    • it could lead to really cool story/character stuff though like jjk: people born with broken bodies but incredible magical powers

      Never miss an opportunity for unique challenges/stories.

      It could be a hook like fullmetal alchemist or a realization for characters later: they are fine the way they are they don’t need to be fixed kind of stuff. simply discounting disabilities takes so much potential out of worlds/stories.

    •  frog 🐸   ( @frog@beehaw.org ) 
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      97 months ago

      Another possibility is that maybe magic can only heal injuries and illnesses, but can’t do anything with congenital disabilities, because the magic restores the person to their natural state, and being blind/etc is what’s natural for that character. So even if magic could heal those who are disabled due to circumstances, there would still be plenty of disabled people who were born with their disabilities.

      • But… There’s a spell called remove blindness in several dnd editions. It’s not even high level.

        I’d say that if there’s a spell that literally states a fix, it’s fixable. There might be some that do not though.

        •  frog 🐸   ( @frog@beehaw.org ) 
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          17 months ago

          Maybe the spell only removes acquired forms of blindness, say through the magic spell Blindness, curses, etc, and has no ability to generate new, functioning tissue for someone that never had any.

          •  Fushuan [he/him]   ( @fushuan@lemm.ee ) 
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            Pathfinder 1e / dnd 3.5 : https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/removeBlindnessDeafness.htm

            Remove blindness/deafness cures blindness or deafness (your choice), whether the effect is normal or magical in nature.

            5e spell: https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/lesser-restoration

            5e’s spell might be interpreted as in, it removes the “blinded” condition, which might be different than being “blind”. However I would guess that when they developed the spell they did not think about it, they just bundled a bunch of spells in 1.

            •  frog 🐸   ( @frog@beehaw.org ) 
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              17 months ago

              Yeah, I would agree that they probably didn’t even think about it. I’d probably interpret the spell as removing the “blinded” condition, whether it’s caused by magic or just someone throwing sand in the character’s eyes or other “normal” causes of the blinded condition.

              The Pathfinder version also specifies “The spell does not restore ears or eyes that have been lost, but it repairs them if they are damaged.” Someone with congenital blindness or deafness may not have “damage” that can be repaired, and with the ears/eyes being naturally non-functional, the spell giving them a new ability (sight/hearing) that they previously didn’t possess could be interpreted as being beyond the spell’s scope.

    •  Susaga   ( @Susaga@ttrpg.network ) 
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      77 months ago

      You’re overstating how common magic is. Aragorn is only 5th level, and you need to be a 13th level bard/cleric/druid to regrow limbs. Even then, you can only regrow one or two per day. It can be done, but it’s not common.

    • In most magic systems (RPG and books/films) using magic costs the magic user something (decades of studying, exhaustion, life force, mana potions/crystals, …). So it would be natural that they want to be compensated for their work.

      So depending on how difficult regrowing an eye is for the magic user that could be quite pricey.

      Some magic systems also require the magic user to exactly picture what they want to cast. Not sure if anyone can actually picture all the connections of an optical nerve.

  •  4am   ( @4am@lemm.ee ) 
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    Wait wait I know how this one went: “You purchase this media to ESCAPE the real world and they FORCE their WOKE AGENDA down your throat!!!”

    Fucking pissy crybabies, let em cope

    •  Cagi   ( @Cagi@lemmy.ca ) 
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      The unspoken part of that argument being they deep down desire a world that has no non-white, disabled, queer people in it at all and don’t understand others don’t think that way.

      •  Neshura   ( @neshura@bookwormstory.social ) 
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        I can only speak for myself but the slight issue I take with “woke” aspects in games is more down to the fact that it takes me out of the experience and forcibly makes me recall the very real discussion around it. That alone wouldn’t be a problem because quite frankly every game is political in some way but the “woke” discussion has been extremely loud and, at least for me, exhausting in both directions. So if I stumble upon an issue of it in a game it immediately pulls me back to reality, ruining my moment of escapism.

        And I don’t think your conclusion of people’s actual desires is accurate. There is wanting all characters to be white, having a problem with 50% of a supposedly medieval european population being black and a lot of nuance in between those two extremes. Again, I can’t speak for anyone except myself but the vast majority of complaints I’ve met are from people who do not take issue with represantation itself but with the degree it is pushed with.

        Disclaimer: please excuse the typos, I’ll maybe fix them later

        •  millie   ( @millie@beehaw.org ) 
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          If you’re so annoyed with just having to hear about it, imagine how shitty it must be to walk out into the world and deal with discrimination. Not just, like, people asking you to think about someone else, but people treating you like you’re not even human.

  •  GBU_28   ( @GBU_28@lemm.ee ) 
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    307 months ago

    Odd because blindness is very commonly represented in mythology and fantasy.

    A wheelchair is a tough sell in a questing/adventuring party, but in the right context we have seen paraplegics manage, in a popular fantasy setting ( GoT, bran), but it required someone to move them around

    • One of the PCs (new guy brought in after the other guy left) at the table literally has prosthetic legs as an artificer because his character was born without them.

      Magical legs work better for an adventuring party for sure IMO but a wheelchair bound NPC in a city is fine.

      Hell the artificer has made it a personal goal to no matter the cost allow people to walk again with their prosthetic legs. (A generous patron gave them their first set) He’s going to encounter one soon (I’m the DM, it’s going to happen) and the player will (likely) have the gold for a set. But they’re not free to make and the components aren’t free.

      It’s interesting to me to put problems in front of my players for them to solve in inventive ways. They never fail to surprise me.

  •  Cagi   ( @Cagi@lemmy.ca ) 
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    In the United States, millions and millions of people walk around with conditions we can treat with our own kind of magic: modern medicine. So why don’t they get that prosthetic arm, treat that chronic pain, get that surgery, or take those pills? They can’t afford it. Why don’t they get that vaccine? They don’t believe in it. If magic exists to eliminate all disabilities, then there should be no smart, rich people with disabilities in your world building, certainly. Plenty to go around otherwise though.

    • Likewise, if fantasy magic did exist in our world that could cure illness we would have a large percentage of our population calling it fake and saying it doesn’t work.

      It is easier and cheaper to pretend it doesn’t exist and they want that to extend to fantasy as well. They don’t want to think about real problems.

    • There is also another dimension to this; millions are still direly ill because they can’t afford treatment.

      And even in our modern world, with all our magic, there are some diseases and conditions we haven’t been able to cure. There is more than one problem that has the same output (blindness) so maybe in the fantasy world they have magic to fix someones macular degeneration but not their optic nerves

  • I can easily accept a blind npc or pc, and also a wheelchair npc, but a wheelchair pc is a bit convoluted in a fantasy setting. Like this was literally a subplot in doctor strange. There is just too much power in player parties to not knock this out in the first few adventures.

    Whether through healing or artifacts or levitation. Just makes no sense unless you want the tactical “guy in a chair” trope, or want to have navigation be a major part of each story.

  •  SavvyWolf   ( @savvywolf@pawb.social ) 
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    A lot of this has probably been said already, but I want to point out that restrictions breed creativity.

    This is a magic fantasty world, how would your character deal with their differences? What coping mechanisms would they develop? Would a blind character develop some alternative to vision? Would a physically disabled character find some other way to navigate the world?

    I see people asking “why would disability exist in a world with magical healing” as a way to dismiss the entire concept. I feel that engaging with the question, and trying to answer, it leads to more interesting characters.

    Toph from Avatar is an example of following these restrictions. Would her character and abilities even exist if the writers didn’t sit down and wonder how a blind character would work in their universe?

    •  ARxtwo   ( @ARxtwo@lemmy.one ) 
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      My setting has a lot of nautical aspects to it, including lots of drowned and sea creatures. One of my players in a captain of a ship (they’re all level 15+ now, so he’s worked his way up there). I’d have the blind character have a parrot that narrates the world to them, much like a DM.

  • I couldn’t care less if there is a disabled character in a fantasy game. But it does beg the question: why would there be a magic character who relies on a real-world wheelchair when they presumably have magical abilities that would eliminate their disability, and why would that be someone’s fantasy?

    That being said, it’s fantasy. You’re allowed to do virtually anything you want. It’s up to the DM to accommodate their players.

    •  Kaity   ( @Kyatto@leminal.space ) 
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      It may simply not be a disability in their eyes. If you can use magic your ability isn’t as grounded in your own physical ability. A fighter sure, but there are other classes that may not have a desire to “fix” what we would consider to be disabling!

      This would almost certainly be similar to how people on the autism spectrum feel vs how people who don’t, expect them to feel.

    • This is where a good storyteller would have a blast.

      Maybe a mage could heal it, but then they would take on the disability themselves.

      Or a magical disability is the result of a 1:1 battle with another magic wielder. Only a being of equal power can cause permanent damage.

      The disability is a payment for some rare power. Maybe you lose your eyes but can now see the astral plane and pilot the Event Horizon.

    • why would there be a magic character who relies on a real-world wheelchair when they presumably have magical abilities that would eliminate their disability,

      Even moreso in something like a typical medium-high magic D&D setting, where most medium size towns have at least one person around that can fix those sorts of problems for people several times a day.

      and why would that be someone’s fantasy?

      Because to some people the most important thing of all is representation of specific groups and everything else is secondary.

  •  Susaga   ( @Susaga@ttrpg.network ) 
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    197 months ago

    There’s a webcomic I read where the cleric became a cleric and started adventuring so he could be powerful enough to help regrow his mother’s lost arm. When she had the option to regrow her arm, she refused. She didn’t need it. With her extended family, she had all the hands she could ever want.

      •  Susaga   ( @Susaga@ttrpg.network ) 
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        37 months ago

        No, her extended family got mad at her wanting to repay them for a dress, insisting she accept it as a gift. They insist she will never owe them for anything, and for good reason.

        •  Susaga   ( @Susaga@ttrpg.network ) 
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          She is anything but selfish. Literally every member of that family is only there because of her selfless deeds (not hyperbole), and they have to talk her into taking their support as a form of thanks. She will never owe them anything by their insistence.

          For reference...

          She donated 25000 gp, received as compensation for losing her arm and her husband, in order to resurrect five strangers. Those strangers became her family. She still offers to pay for meals and gifts given to her because she doesn’t want to intrude on their generosity. Her arm is still holding her husband, and she doesn’t need another one.

          • She is selfish by choosing to not “pull her weight”. She became selfish by that choice.

            I understand there are some communities that choose things like keeping their child deaf, but if you’re choosing to put more weight on me then that does go into my perception of you.

            I’m not going to force anyone into “becoming healed”. But they are choosing. That choice is when it becomes selfish.

            No, it isn’t as selfish as a billionaire putting children in mines to see their bank account grow.

            Everyone makes selfish choices all the time.

            Just because you made a selfish choice doesn’t make you a bad person, or even means you “hurt” someone. Doing good deeds before doesn’t make future acts not selfish.

            When I first read “she has all the arms and feet she could ever want” all I did is put myself into the shoes of someone who is helping her. “Oh, all I am is a foot?” Is an easy thing to see someone feeling, especially after learning they’re choosing to keep you there.

            •  Susaga   ( @Susaga@ttrpg.network ) 
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              Why did you put things in quotes that nobody said? When did you read “arms and feet”?

              She is not selfish. She is selfless to a fault. She isn’t putting more work on others, she just doesn’t think it’s worth the hassle of magically healing her when that effort could go to helping others. She isn’t doing it just because she thinks she can make others work for her, and if you read what I wrote, you’d know that.

              She does pull her weight, and she pulls it with one hand while everyone else is telling her to rest for a bit. Everyone offers their hands to her and she has learned, over many years, to accept their aid. They are not just hands. They are her fucking family.

              Here’s an example of how incredibly wrong you’ve read the situation.

              • I’m not as great formatting in text. But you started this by saying arms and feet. The rest were mostly
                along the lines of the text has multiple meanings and I’m using certain ones.

                I made no judgement on her overall character. I haven’t argued her whole is selfish. That one instance is her being selfish. I did read what you wrote? Your argument on that specific act not being selfish is “she’s done good things.” I don’t care. I don’t know her. That act is selfish, the choice is selfish.

                I don’t care if they’re family. Am I not allowed to complain about acts that ‘harm’ me?

                I’m sorry, is that supposed to make me not feel that she’s selfish. I have experience with people doing that “oh no, I cannot accept a gift” any every time I’ve seen someone do that it’s from past trauma. The reason why I’m going to push back against anyone saying “let them stay traumatized” is because helping people and giving gifts makes people like you more. If you do that you’re going to push people away, and make it harder to live/have friends/get help in the future/form bonds with people. No, that is bull shit behavior. You probably posted the one thing that would make me dislike her more.

                •  Susaga   ( @Susaga@ttrpg.network ) 
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                  17 months ago

                  I literally never said feet. I said arms, I said hands, I never said feet.

                  Your argument on that specific act not being selfish is “she’s done good things.”

                  That wasn’t my argument on that act. That was my argument on her. She has a pattern of selfless behaviour, so it’s weird to interpret this in a way that makes her selfish.

                  The argument I made on that specific act is that her having one hand is not a selfish thing. She says it’s not worth the hassle healing her, and she’s willing to do the work she’d need to by herself, even with the disadvantage. It only affects her. Nothing about that is selfish. I don’t even see how it COULD be.

                  I don’t care if they’re family.

                  I didn’t say they’re family like that excuses anything. I said they’re family because that is their reasoning, and how they treat each other. She treats them like family. They help her because they’re her family. You say she treats them like they’re just hands and feet, which is simply wrong.

                  Am I not allowed to complain about acts that ‘harm’ me?

                  This feels like a rather telling thing to say. Nothing in this situation harms anyone, including you. Nobody has been forced to do anything they aren’t immediately offering to do. Nobody is trying to leverage anyone to do things for them. Her disability is not a burden on anyone. It’s weird you interpret it in this way.

                  I have experience with people doing that…

                  You seem to have started arguing against a phantom in the middle there, and also implied that the only reason to do nice things is so other people like you? That’s not why she does nice things. She does them because she thought it was the proper thing to do, and that anyone else would do the same. There’s no trauma. She’s not pushing anyone away. And the comic directly shows someone demanding her to accept their generosity, which matches with her learning to accept their aid in the comic I showed earlier.

  • The amount of people in this thread who assume everyone with any type of disability or difference in ability would even want to have their condition corrected is shocking. Why is it impossible to imagine a blind person who doesn’t want their vision fixed for no other reason than they believe they’re fine as is? Why is that such a difficult thing to grasp? Just because free magical heal exists doesn’t mean everyone automatically wants it. You don’t need to turn to other explanations about why it might not be trusted or affordable when you can just say “this person is blind and doesn’t particularly care to be able to see.”

    • It’s not impossible, but it certainly seems unlikely. I’m pretty sure even someone as bad ass as Toph would prefer to be able to see. it would make life easier for her without removing any of her strength. Being blind is fuckin hard according to my visually impaired friends.

      If someone at my table wanted to play a disabled character we could have fun with it, if course.