Given many new handhelds coming on the scene and general disinterest of Microsoft to support the market, do you think SteamOS will take place of default OS the same way Android did on phones some time ago?
For the future of PC gaming I sure as hell hope so. People stick to and defend Windows as their go-to 'till the bitter end, likely not realizing Linux could be everything their Windows machine is and there is a real industry player with a lot of money making this reality right now. If we just let it.
If we would just give Linux the critical mass, we could free the last locked aspect of PC gaming, the OS itself. That way we would no longer be at the whims of Microsoft’s decisions because let’s face it, even Windows users hate the shit they do.
Linux, currently, cannot handle everything Windows can unfortunately. Windows also has a massive software support advantage. Valve are in the best place to try and give Linux to the masses, but that’s a lot of work and it won’t have much return for them. Windows getting worse is the way Linux will get more market share, but most people are not power users and will probably just use Windows anyway as it ‘just works’.
Windows, currently, cannot handle everything Linux can. Linux also has a massive software support advantage, running on vastly more hardware and architectures than Windows does.
Linux has already been given to the masses. People use it every day in super user friendly ways; they just don’t realize they’re using Linux.
The only reason people use Windows is because they don’t choose it. Imagine if every PC sold had a Linux option and a Windows option that cost an extra $100. What do you think people would buy?
The same hardware running Linux will easily outperform Windows (especially at the most common end user tasks like web browsing) by a long shot. In a few days NTFS turns 30 years old FFS (LOL).
Any given hardware accessory will “just work” when plugged in to a Linux PC but Windows will require a special driver that you have to go out and find on your own at the vendor’s website that will be bloated AF. It’ll also reinstall it if you change the USB port LOL.
The only reason people use Windows is because they don’t choose it. Imagine if every PC sold had a Linux option and a Windows option that cost an extra $100. What do you think people would buy?
I think they would buy windows, because the software they need to do their job only runs on windows.
because every pc runs windows, if more and more pcs default to linux even more apps gonna support it
If they need specific software to do their job you’d think that their employer would be the one supplying their computer. So I don’t think this would be as common as thing as you’re suggesting.
I’m not ruling it out as a possibility but at the same time… Have you seen people shopping for computers at Walmart? I have and a recent question I overheard was, “How fast is the Internet?” which after some back and forth with the salesperson revealed that they wanted a new laptop for Facebook/Instagram and play browser-based games. When I left the salesperson was directing them to a Chromebook which was probably going to be a vastly superior option for that customer than a Windows laptop (opens right to the browser, less maintenance, no worries about malware, etc).
As highly technical PC people it’s easy for us to forget that for the vast majority of computer users the only app they ever open is a web browser. In fact, for a ton of young people growing up right now a computer is a device that runs a web browser and they don’t even really understand what a web browser is!
When your average user buys a new Windows PC it’ll be loaded with all sorts of bloatware that they will never remove. They will close the popups asking them to renew subscriptions, update things, etc as a matter of course. It becomes second nature to them! They don’t even read what the messages are… They just click OK or the X. Windows trains them to do this! Because it has so fucking many intrusive popups! I mean, come on: Everyone knows that’s a terrible user experience and drives us (the PC power users) fucking nuts when we sit down at a “normie” PC and see all that shit. It’s practically a twitch reflex for most of us to open up Apps/Programs and Features and get to work uninstalling things and if you’re used to using a Linux desktop this particular experience will feel like driving nails into your head because Linux desktops are much more user friendly! They don’t have that problem!
Most people that by a console or a laptop in a store don’t even know what an operating system is. If you would just put linux on all consumer machines, no one would question it and if they do, the seller would say “It is a new version”
And then when they get home and none of their very specific programs that only work on windows run on linux (like photoshop, or microsoft office, or something similar), they’ll come back to you and ask what is wrong with their computer.
Uh, no. I tried Linux (Mint). I hated it. It doesn’t even have a damn colorblind mode… The best you can hope for is a goofy workaround with some app that’s meant for devs testing colorblind modes, and that may or may not even work. Colorblind mode is a rock bottom basic accessibility feature, especially in 2023, and the most highly recommended distro for people coming from Windows doesn’t even have that.
And it rather shows that average or non-Linux-nerd users, and what they need from their OS, are not a priority at all, which means the system will never be friendly or appealing to them until and unless that changes.
I also personally hated the way it wanted me to install everything from a launcher, vs downloading exe’s from their owners websites that have a lot more info than the generic Linux launcher does.
I hated all the crashes, the requirement for tinkering at random times when I really just needed my PC to work reliably, and the way so many people in the Linux community look down on and/or insult everyone who asks for help with anything or has any gripe about Linux (thus assuring helpful feedback from average users won’t be reporter or heard, their problems won’t be fixed, and confusing UI will remain confusing and bogged down in jargon).
Linus Tech did a good youtube series on what Linux is like to encounter as a newbie. He had problems. When even one of the most popular tech/PC youtubers has problems right out the gate, how can you expect it to work for everyone else?
I want it to get better and become a real conpetitor to Windows, but it just flat out isn’t yet except for specific applications like servers, and pretending it is only insures it won’t ever be. The culture around it is holding it back.
Tl;dr: there are actually quite a lot of people like me who are aware of Linux and choose Windows or Mac instead.
I get it you like Linux, so do I. And I just have yet to have a smooth experience with it as a desktop and for games. We talking about the average gaming market here, nothing more, Linux is obviously very powerful and is the most used OS outside of desktops.
Most users have Nvidia cards that still do not play nicely with a lot of Linux setups, although that seems to be coming around now. Linux is a very customisable platform and it can be a lot better than Windows if you spend the time tweaking every aspect of it, but you are kidding yourself if you think Linux is better OOTB than Windows for most users. It’s fine for us to stick our heads into wikis and play around in the terminal, but most people don’t want to bother with all that.
I hope Linux does get more adoption so that support is further improved and I hope it reaches that tipping point where most people can pick up for their everyday machines.
Tell that to all the PC gamers that build their own PC and then buy Windows for it.
The reason Valve is so heavily investing in Linux is that they know that Microsoft could - in theory - flip a switch and kill their business, especially because Microsoft themselves is a competitor to Valve in the form of Xbox and Gamepass.
It’s a defensive tactic, not a money-making venture.
And realistically Microsoft has a very good moment coming up in the next few years to effectively kill Steam: Valve only delivers pre-compiled files and does not have access to source code. Therefore Valve is not only stuck with a “Windows-like environment”, they are also shackled to x86. With Apple’s M-processors reigning supreme in the laptop space with insane values for performance-to-powerdraw (and in turn heat radiation and cooling requirements), the days of x86-by-default laptops are probably numbered and more manufacturers may want to switch to ARM, to avoid unfavorable comparisons to MacBooks. With Windows for ARM Microsoft can finally kill of all traces of Win32 in WinRT, as they tried for years and force everyone to use UWP-apps from the store exclusively on ARM. Apple does leave apps behind, when updating their operating systems on a regular basis, a similar move by Microsoft wouldn’t look totally unreasonable. The switch could even happen gradually, like Apple’s Rosetta translation layer, which runs x86 apps on arm great right now, but I don’t think it will be maintained forever and support for x86 apps on macOS will end one day. Microsoft could do the same for Windows for ARM. If this happens Valve will probably have the opportunity to install games as UWP-apps, but their back catalog of Win32 .exes becomes effectively worthless. But if Win32 .exes run great through some translation layer on linux, valve can continue to sell and support their back catalog on current hardware.
That is indeed a good reason, but while it’s possible for Microsoft to do that, it’s extrememly unlikey to ever happen.
Don’t discount it, it feels like they’ve been pushing cloud gaming and their subscription pretty hard
Not just cloud gaming, cloud Windows itself. Gaming is just a massive market now and cutting off Steam would be PR suicide if nothing else, they would only do it if they really thought there was no good alternative for gamers to turn to, but with Valve’s spearheading of Proton etc, I think it would be too risky for MS. But yeah, you never know right.
The cloud windows headlines are kinda misleading, that’s just about their business-aimed products, not windows for home users.
I specifically phrased it “could be” as people tend to believe there are 3 preferences, Mac, Linux and Windows. Linux is not one user experience, it could work exactly like your favorite OS. In the face of SteamOS already being a viable option for the average gamer as Valve is basically strong arming it to be, on Steam Deck you’re not exactly doing PC gaming any good deliberately installing Windows on it. SteamOS just works.
I also think you’re very misguided in thinking it won’t have any return to Valve. Microsoft has to be looking at Google Play Store and whatever the Apple Store is called with a lot of envy with how they’ve managed to lock the entire ecosystem under their stores. This is the end result for Windows as well and its likely anti-competetive clauses are a very bad sign for a company like Valve. Looking back I’m actually impressed just how far back Valve saw this happening. Decoupling PC gaming in its entirety from Microsoft’s vendor lock-ins is in the best interest of all of the companies in the gaming industry, but it takes a rich private company like Valve to start doing the hard work for long term benefits instead of always chasing the short term profits.
Even if tomorrow Microsoft launched something that pulled ahead of SteamOS, it would still be in the gamers’ best interest to stick with the open platform. With a consistent, large userbase on an open platform it will eventually eclipse anything Microsoft could ever muster.
Valve is doing this for strategic reasons and also because they wanted to start the handheld PC market (Steam Deck). Strategic reasons: Microsoft could at any point buy several important gaming studios or distributors, distribute a lot of games (maybe exclusively) via their own store (they even announced that several years ago, but they didn’t do it in the end). MS could even implement small things which make Steam perform worse on Windows, as its 100% controlled by MS. If you compete directly with Microsoft on the Windows platform, you will eventually lose because MS can do some very tiny tweaks which happen to make your product be more annoying or slower to use than Microsoft’s own. That way they’ll still fly under the radar for anti-competitive behavior. So Valve has to ensure that their main business model (selling/distributing games on Steam) remains future-proof, and that means more independent from Microsoft’s agenda. To do this, they need to push a fully neutral, but viable alternative to Windows for gaming. Which is Linux.
I’d love to see the return of Steam Machines. I loved the concept back in 2014 but Linux gaming absolutely wasn’t ready back then. A first party Valve Steam Machine could be a great entry point for many potential new PC gamers.
SteamOS has been out on Steam Deck for 18 months, but still no general release in sight. I wouldn’t hold my breath. I think we’ll just have to continue to make do with the likes of ChimeraOS/Nobara.
Is there some specific feature that SteamOS brings to the table that people are looking for? So far as I know, a stripped down installation Debian or Ubuntu (Valve likes to base their packages off of Ubuntu) with an Xserver script that directly launches steam in big picture mode ought to create roundabout the same experience I would think.
SteamOS 2.x was based on debian, but that hasn’t been updated in years. The Steam Deck launched with SteamOS 3, which is actually built on top of arch and is much more akin to Manjaro. As for your question, it’s mostly the “game mode”, which uses IIRC Wayland and wraps games inside gamescope which provides a bit more control in the form of controlling frame rate, resolution, etc externally, but regardless, that can and has been achieved in custom distros. I think the main appeal of SteamOS honestly is the package of an immutable OS optimized for running games on steam. It prevents non-linux users from breaking things and tries to make it feel more like a “console” with a “desktop mode” (KDE Plasma) and “app store” (ala flatpaks). I’ve toyed with the idea of running it or similar on my gaming PC but always run into the difficulty of Nvidia drivers on Linux.
I had no idea they switched distros. Or ran Wayland for that matter! Truly it’s the future. But that’s a good point, being able to say on the “box” that is specifically runs SteamOS certainly brings about a level of consumer and investor assurance.
As far as the nvidia drivers go. Only advice I can offer is that I’ve never had any sort of auto install, package based install, or any sidestepping of the default installation of the driver work for me. It’s always borked. The only reliable method I’ve found is the old school drop into the line terminal, shutdown all GUI, and running the nvidia provided install script (which sucks, I know).
Yeah, I’ve gotten Nvidia drivers working, but always with issues in performance or things like Wayland not working and I eventually decide “that was fun to play around with, back to Windows”. Specifically the whole immutable OS thing for me is nice too. Linux is my OS of choice for development work, but it’s so easy to screw things up when trying to make games work nicely and my ideal “it just works” gaming machine can ignore the OS entirely (looking at you, Windows random forced reboots or virus scans), so having big single updates rather than individual packages and no risk of trying to get WINE etc up and running breaking something with the OS is nice. Not to mention, it’s much harder for a small child to brick it than a normal Linux distro or even Windows for that matter. Fedora Kinonite is on my radar for a future distro because of this, I just haven’t decided if I prefer the Fedora ecosystem over Ubuntu or Manjaro.
Fwiw, you can disable those Windows forced reboots in the group policy editor of Windows, at least in the Pro version. I don’t even let mine give me the update notifications any more - I just see the option to install when I go to manually shutdown or reboot.
Edit: granted, Windows updates sometimes unexpectedly make problems anyway, albeit much less often for me than Linux ones.
I hope NVK makes Nouveau a viable daily driver for NVIDIA users, they’re already running games, and Zink is making large improvements.
Then we can finally get the hell off of Xorg and leave it almost entirely to Xwayland.
For me it’s the fact that it just works. I don’t want to fiddle with Wine or bottles or any if that. I pick the game and launch it, never have i had to do more than that.
Technically speaking, Steam handles that part automatically. You wouldn’t need to futz around with it in any distro so long as steam is up and running. That said my original idea that you could just launch steam from an Xserver login script is, well I’ve since learned that Steam Decks are running a less than simple setup behind the scenes. BUT from an end user experience, booting any old distro straight into steam big picture should be at least a passable Steam OS experience, barring any performance issues that would result from the difference in back end implementation.
True. There is an unofficial release - HoloIso - which uses Valves packages but is not quite complete. Also manufacturers may be able to get access as Valve previously has been keen on getting other manufacturers to buy into it’s hardware attempts (e.g. Steam PCs previously, and VR now) but I’d expect the manufacturers to be making a big deal of it if they were launching a SteamOS handheld. It seems Valve want to keep exclusivity on Steam Deck for now (which makes some sense given how successful it’s been)
(which makes some sense given how successful it’s been)
It really doesn’t make sense, considering how small the hardware profit margins probably are, if any.
What would make sense is making the Steam-first OS open to be installed on any device.
It doesn’t matter if there’s no hardware profit margin if the end result is, as it seems to be, more people buying more games from steam. That’s no different than most console manufacturers anyways - so far as I know, none of them are in it to make profit off the hardware itself, just the exclusivity.
Granted, Steam Deck still let’s you run non-steam games and connect other launchers, but even so most people will buy from steam for it regardless.
the end result is, as it seems to be, more people buying more games from steam.
This is the end result of releasing their software, not selling more hardware.
Oh look, you stumbled on to the point. Valve would benefit from making a more console-like pc (a la the steam boxes from yesteryear) because it could get more people into the valve ecosystem. There are people who buy consoles simply because they offer the simplicity of buying a prebuilt thing that you don’t need to fudge around with and comes integrated with everything you need to run the games.
I didn’t “stumble onto” anything. Valve would benefit much more from simply releasing their operating system for universal hardware use than they ever would from hardware sales. That was my point from the beginning.
I at least suspect there will be a community porting some variant of SteamOS to the more popular handhelds.
ChimeraOS already works on pretty much anything.
“Works” to varying degrees. It usually needs to be tailored to the hardware.
Tailored by the user or the dev? What type of hardware? I have not had to do anything special yet on any of the devices I have installed it on.
By the developers. You can’t just slap it on anything and expect it to work properly. When the Ally was first released there was no sound and no WiFi. You have to use the “experimental” version to get it running kind of okay on there.
Well yeah, the Ally has somewhat “bespoke” hardware. Not to say that the dev didn’t have to do some extra work to even get it working on Aya devices, but at this point in time, I think my statement of “pretty much” anything still stands. Though given the fact that this thread is about the “future” default, maybe I shouldn’t be talking about “this point in time”.
It would be a good thing. Gaming on windows has been a shit experience since everything after windows 7. I don’t want to have to manually(or scriptedly) remove candy crush installer icons among other bloat shit every time I install the os just for a basic clean experience that still spies in me.
What are these many new handhelds you speak of
Ayaneo 2 is one apparently. ROG Ally is one. And there are at least 8 more: https://retrododo.com/best-handheld-gaming-pcs/
Doesn’t the ROG Ally just use Windows?
It does come with Windows but these handhelds are just PC hardware in handheld form factor, you can install whatever OS you’d like.
I thought it would but it’s been over a year and still no one is shipping with it.
I hope its form factor gets closer to the switch so its more mixed mode handheld/console.
Probably not while ARM handhelds are so popular. I think that it’s a good choice for intel and AMD for now, though.
Why not for ARM handhelds? I don’t think there is anything that handles x86 on arm well outside of Apple. But there are some things on Linux that can do it.
I’ve not personally tried it though. Maybe I will today, I have a spare raspberry pi that’s not doing much.
I do not get reference to smartphones. In US iOS is dominated system.