I’ve been using Linux Mint since forever. I’ve never felt a reason to change. But I’m interested in what persuaded others to move.
Every couple of years I think to myself “You know, I can’t actually remember why I don’t like Ubuntu. It must have just been some weird one-off thing that soured me on it last time. Besides, I’ve got N more years of Linux experience under my belt, so I know how to avoid sticky situations with apt, and they’ve had N more years to make their OS more user friendly! I pride myself on not holding grudges, and if this distro still gets recommended to newbies, how bad can it possibly be, especially for someone with my level of expertise?”
And then I download Ubuntu.
And then I remember.
And then I remember.
Can you share with the rest of the class?
Admittedly, it’s been a few years and I’m coming due, but let’s see what I can remember…
- apt will brick itself if it gets interrupted mid transaction with no clear recourse apart from a total reinstall, so try not to get greedy and Ctrl+C if it looks like dpkg is hung
- trying to install any software that isn’t already packaged explicitly for Ubuntu is a nightmare because there is no equivalent of the AUR for people to push build steps to and you’re quite often left guessing what dependencies you need to install to get something to compile
- snapcraft, need I say more? Firefox takes several minutes to start up, we don’t talk about disk usage, installing a package with apt will sometimes install the snap version anyway requiring a Windows-registry-edit-esque hack to disable, and the last time I checked in, the loop devices it creates didn’t even get hidden in the file manager.
- I’ve also definitely encountered my fair share of bugs and broken packages which are always fun to fix
- apt will brick itself if it gets interrupted mid transaction with no clear recourse apart from a total reinstall, so try not to get greedy and Ctrl+C if it looks like dpkg is hung
You can dpkg -r the package you tried to install then apt won’t complain about missing dependency packages for your app as it won’t be marked for to be installed
trying to install any software that isn’t already packaged explicitly for Ubuntu is a nightmare because there is no equivalent of the AUR for people to push build steps to and you’re quite often left guessing what dependencies you need to install to get something to compile
There isn’t a big global community repo per say like aur but anyone can host their own repos with PPAs, you just need to add them to your lists
Most apt quirks are there with Debian too, not just an Ubuntu thing. The rest of the things you mentioned are fair.
- trying to install any software that isn’t already packaged explicitly for Ubuntu is a nightmare because there is no equivalent of the AUR for people to push build steps to and you’re quite often left guessing what dependencies you need to install to get something to compile
In fairness it does have the PPA system which predates the AUR and does provide a good job of providing third party amd semi-third party software.
But you’re right that Ubuntu has sold out on building snaps for software instead of ppas.
The PPAs weren’t that useful. I mean they worked fine for the purpose, but if you used too many of them you’d eventually get your system into a dependency hell. That meant packages were stuck without updates and also blocking others from updating.
The other thing was that even if you kept clear of PPAs it was anybody’s guess if you could upgrade to the next release. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn’t and you’d have to reinstall from scratch.
Put together it meant after a while you didn’t bother upgrading period, or upgraded only major releases but by reinstalling from scratch every single time (and preserving /home). It was a chore and I resented it and kept putting it off.
That Ubuntu would install the snap version of certain apps when I installed them directly in the terminal was the main reason I left Ubuntu after a few years. So annoying!
On 22.04 LTS, you can’t even open Firefox if you’re using NFS/Autofs home directories.
How is that not taken seriously as a major bug?
Recommending ubuntu to newbies is the product of either incompetence or malice when Mint, zorin and nobara exist
Can you expand on that? I’ve never used Linux as a daily driver, interacting with Ubuntu systems via SSH.
Most of them.
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Debian world - apt sucks. For something with a sole purpose of resolving a dependency tree, it’s surprisingly bad at that.
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Redhat world - everything is soooo old. I can see why business people like it, buy I rarely, if ever, agree with business people.
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Opensuse world - I’ve only tried it once, probably 15 years ago. Didn’t really know my way around computers all that much at the time, but it didn’t click and I’ve left it. Later on I found out about their selling out to Microsoft and never bothered touching it again.
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Arch - it was my daily for a year or two. Big fan. It still runs my email. At some point the size of packages started to annoy me, though. Still has the best wiki. I’ve never really bothered with the spinoffs, as the model of Arch makes them useless and more problematic to deal with.
I’ve got the Gentoo bug now. For the first time I genuinely feel
~/. A lean, mean system of machines :)
never really bothered with the spinoffs, as the model of Arch makes them useless and more problematic to deal with
I highly enjoy using EndeavourOS. But then again, I wouldn’t classify it as a spinoff, it’s pretty much vanilla Arch, but purple.
Now Manjaro on the other hand… Tried it and understood why so many people don’t like it within the first week.
Mind to elaborate a little bit more about the Manjaro problem? I am driving it since a couple of years without any issue but I keep hearing this… now I am afraid :)
I hope it works for you forever. I am not going to get in an argument with the other Manjaro users here that will come to argue with you.
Just keep in mind that most of the people warning you away from Manjaro have a story that basically sums up as “I used to love Manjaro until, one day, it totally broke on me. Now I won’t touch it.” Sadly, this includes me. Will you join us one day? I hope not.
Keep using it if it works for you.
Manjaro detractors are usually:
- People who do stuff they shouldn’t, like using non-recommended kernel or driver versions or replace critical system components from AUR, then blame it on the distro when stuff breaks.
- People who don’t understand how AUR works and think that Manjaro holding back binary packages for a couple of weeks has any effect on AUR (which is built from source…)
- People who can’t get over the times when they didn’t renew their certs or when they accidentally DDoS’ed the AUR. It doesn’t matter if the distro is good or not. Those instances of carelessness should be held against it forever.
- People who can’t stand the fact it’s a commercial distro.
- People who can’t stand the thought of any Arch-based distro that dares to do anything different from Arch (other than make the install easier, that one seems to be acceptable for some reason; but there are more extreme people who dislike that too).
I am trying to think of how to respond to this without being a jerk.
Let me skip to the end. Until very recently, I thought of Manjaro users as innocents that just did not understand the risk. Like islanders living next to a volcano that had never erupted in their lifetime.
I still view most Manjaro users that way. Manjaro defenders though I now think of as dog owners whose animals have bitten multiple times. When told, the owner insists that “my dog would never do that” or “if it did, you must have done something wrong”. I am done arguing with those people. All I can do is warn others that this dog has bitten several of us and you may not want to enter that yard. If you do, who knows, the dog may be friendly. Or not. Again, all I can tell you is that many of us have scars. Use that information as you will.
Most “Manjaro detractors” I have encountered have years of experience with both Manjaro and other Arch distros. Their tales come from experience. When they share their cautionary tales, there are often Manjaro defenders whose best defence is just to deny that what the “detractors” are saying ( about their own experience ) is real.
My core question for the defenders would be, if it is our fault, why do we only encounter the problems on Manjaro?
Let’s go through the bullets above one by one:
- I never did that on Manjaro. I probably do it more on EOS. Why only problems on Manjaro?
- why does my lack of knowledge of how the AUR works only break things on Manjaro?
- this bullet is the best. It admits that Manjaro has repeatedly broken things but we should not hold it against it. Literally this is saying that “Manjaro breaks things” is wrong because, while it does, we should just get over it. Hilarious.
- how does attacking the “detractors” address the claim that Manjaro breaks things?
- how does attacking the “detractors” address the claim that Manjaro breaks things?
I got in a lengthy back and forth with a Manjaro fan the other day where I repeatedly related the ways that Manjaro used to break on me and how that does not happen for me on vanilla Arch or EndeavourOS. They just kept coming back telling me that it could not have happened and, if I thought it could, that I did not understand how the AUR works. It was insane. Basically, this guy could not follow what I was saying to him. His response to his inability to understand the scenario that I was describing was to insult my intelligence and expertise.
Look loser. I don’t care if you believe me that your dog bites. I will continue to warn people and they can decide if they want to risk it or not.
Isn’t it funny how none of the people who claim that Manjaro “just broke” on them can recall what the problem was? They can’t point at a bug report. It’s nothing they did, naturally (they’re “experienced” users, after all). It just broke.
Meanwhile, it never broke for me or others, in years of use, with dozens of AUR packages installed. So yeah. I think I’ll stick to concrete evidence like a rational person, thanks.
Now Manjaro on the other hand… Tried it and understood why so many people don’t like it within the first week.
I see this a lot and nobody really ever explains, properly, why.
I have used Linux off and on for many years (mainly server OS such as RHEL and CentOS). I have now migrated from Windows desktop to Manjaro KDE. Using it for a year. Had one issue (wouldn’t boot after a kernel update), which I sorted quickly. Other than that it’s been rock solid.
But this isn’t a ‘I have a great experience so you’re all just haters’ post.
I know the stuff about it being a week or behind Arch. I remember something about the maintainers (can’t remember specifics) but they seem to be minor niggles that don’t affect most people.
Genuine question.
Why do you dislike Manjaro? I also know it’s a common theme to dislike it, so any other insight there?
Not the guy you asked, but my 2 main gripes are:
- holding back main repos and not aur? That’s dumb and just asking for trouble.
- sheer incompetence. Remember their certs expiring? Remember their public recommended workaround? That’s webdev level of bs. They absolutely do not understand their own setup.
Never saw this?
I am responding too much but this question seems genuine so I hope this answer helps.
1 - I, at least, do not “dislike” Manjaro. I think it is very good looking. I loved the out of the box experience. I liked it a lot.
2 - Manjaro broke on me multiple times. I now consider it “unsafe”. That is not really “dislike”.
Why unsafe?
1 - the project has governance issues. You can say we should get over them but they have been repetitive. Once bitten, twice shy as they say.
2 - more systemically, using the AUR is less safe than on other Arch distros
Why? Well, primarily because the Manjaro repos “hold back” packages for something like 2 - 4 weeks ( I honestly cannot remember but the number is not the issue ). Manjaro does not curate the AUR itself though so the AUR is “current” compared to other Arch distros.
I will not run through all the ways this can break things. I will point out though that when Manjaro defenders say that “it all syncs up again in a couple of weeks”, they are wrong.
It is not about delaying updates ( sorry if I am insulting your intelligence to say this but Manjaro defenders often insist on thinking this is “the problem” that people have with Manjaro ). This cannot be the problem. Different users update at different times. I do it frequently. Some people wait months.
You can manually delay updates on any Arch distro. EndeavourOS even includes a utility ( eos-update ) to specify a specific delay on package updates.
In short, the problems stem from the lack of repo sync at INSTALL time. Manjaro differs from every other Arch distro in terms of what packages are available when you install software from the AUR.
You can believe that this matters, as I have learned, or you can believe that it does not. I hope it works out for you. I really do.
In short, the problems stem from the lack of repo sync at INSTALL time. Manjaro differs from every other Arch distro in terms of what packages are available when you install software from the AUR.
Which is completely irrelevant because AUR “packages” are only very loosely related to Arch binaries. Your average AUR is just a source package developed by someone who most likely doesn’t use Arch, plus a thin wrapper script that says “it needs these packages to compile and these packages to run”.
As users of source based distros like Nix and Gentoo will show you, you can get a well-made source package to compile and run on an extremely wide variety of system states (and also distros, architectures etc.)
The fact that binaries on Manjaro are a few weeks late is completely irrelevant for something compiled from source from a reasonably recent source package.
You seem to be under the impression that AUR packagers perform extensive testing. They don’t. They run it once, if it works for them they publish. They did that weeks or months or in some cases years ago compared to the time you install. By which time the relevance of that test to Arch or Manjaro or any Arch distro is tenuous at best.
There is one case where an AUR package can fail installing, and that’s if the packager has requested a dependency in a version that for some reason isn’t available on your system. This can happen to Manjaro due to the delay but also to any other Arch distro depending on whether the user is willing and able get that version at that particular time. Not everybody is willing to drop everything and update three times a day.
The other thing that people can’t seem to get through their head is that AUR packages will break eventually as the system binaries are updated. You have to recompile AUR packages when they break. This is the same for all Arch distros.
I’ve used EndeavourOS but thought it was fugly enough not to use it hah
Well damn, federation took its sweet time to show me your reply
A few years ago I wanted to get away from Ubuntu on my desktop PC so I sat down and considered about a dozen of the most recommended Linux distros install images.
My requirements were:
- Image should be live so I could test it without installing.
- Should work out of the box with everything I could think to throw at it: wifi, Bluetooth devices including controllers, network shares, play music/video out of the box, printing, audio devices on USB etc.
- Easy to install and maintain. No need for brain-dead install or zero maintenance, I’m a seasoned Linux user and anyway I don’t want to be absurd, but I also don’t want to spend my spare time debugging or maintaining the desktop system. I have a server for that.
- Recent packages and frequent updates, but stable.
- Usable for everyday use, work (mostly Citrix and other forms of remote desktop) and of course gaming.
- Rolling release.
Guess which distro ticked absolutely every single box.
You are trolling us.
If you want stable, the answer is not Manjaro. If you do not have time for debugging, the answer is for sure not Manjaro.
Suit yourself. I’m telling you that you’re sleeping on one of the most user-friendly, up to date, gaming-ready, stable and generally hassle free distros out there, and it’s coming from someone who actually tried all the popular ones.
In exchange you just have to stick to a LTS kernel and not replace critical system components from AUR. Which I think you’ll agree are reasonable conditions for all Arch distros, heck, all distros.
Try it, don’t try it, up to you.
Gentoo all the way since 20 years, on all kind of devices, going strong and never looked back.
Ubuntu, I hate you. A messy complex windows-esque caricature in the Linux world, where “somebody else” knows better than me and shoves it down my gully.
So there you go, my best and worst distros choice.
I’ve only got a few years on Gentoo - how has your journey been? You must’ve started with stage 1!
Well, yes, stage3 has been a revolution. But I don’t remember using stage1 directly. I started with Linux way earlier than gentoo… On 386.
I need to try Gentoo again. The installer used to be absolute garbage and required a ton of work to get the a usable system if you deviated too far from a normal computer setup.
There is no installer as such. You copy an archive, extract it and rebuild @world. Anything beyond that is up to you. I’m sticking to openrc - haven’t had any issues since libxcrypt news item. Can’t even recall what it was.
That’s interesting! I’ll have to give it a shot!
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Debian – I just wasn’t ready for it. Got told “oh you’re using Mint? That’s nice but you should try out Debian it’s the Real Deal™” but the reason I was using Mint back then in the first place was that it was my first step out of the Windows ecosystem, I was scared shitless and didn’t understand anything. What do you mean I don’t get a huge pretty start menu?! How am I supposed to find stuff then?!
I think you are referring to gnome more than debian. I’ve been trying debian with kde and so far I haven’t found that many problems.
Obviously, yes, but at that level of knowledge as a user, you either don’t know about that or don’t feel comfortable enough to deal with it.
Debian with Gnome is also pretty alright. I’ve been using that for a long time now. I guess it depends a bit where you come from. If you want something like Windows, it’s probably a big deal for you. If you’re used to Android or MacOS, you might enjoy the Gnome experience.
Basic, but Ubuntu. It’s got snaps which are slow and generally suck, plus Canonical
NixOS… for now. I was on Fedora and was looking for something new. Thought I’d try these new „immutable” distros. Then realised I didn’t know enough about normal ones yet, so I switched to Arch instead. Plus, Nix’ docs are horrendous imo
I tried NixOS too, and their docs are horrible for new users. I found myself looking for anything but the docs to get started. I decided to stay with my EndeavorOS install.
Mint, and anything else that requires PPAs. Last time I distrohopped, I had a rule that if I couldn’t install Librewolf in under a minute or two, it wasn’t worth the trouble.
Mind you, this was before flatpaks were big, but I also own a potato and don’t want to waste space on flatpaks.
Get that downvote finger ready!
Arch.
I know it’s what all the cool kids are using, and I keep trying to like it, but I just can’t get into it. I’m a slacker for life.
I am ok with that. If you would consider keeping the baby after ditching the bath water, maybe give EndeavourOS a try.
That’s actually next on my list to check out.
A wild slacker appears.
Are you your own dependency manager too?
Some day I’m going to get someone in one of these “what distro should I try?” posts to install slackware and fall in love with it.
Sbopkg has a slackbuild queue generator
sqgwhich builds the dependencies for applications in it for you. apart from that I’m trying to package ROCm.Holy crap, how did I forget that existed? I would use that for complex stuff like vlc back in the day.
I’ve not heard of ROCm, but I think I get the gist. It’s something like Cuda for AMD?
Are you going to upload and maintain it if you get it working?
Its easy to forget it cause the name is forgettable lol.
yeah basically. Its annoying af to build from source.
yeah i would like to do that but baby steps it needs to build and work.
Come say hi at ##seven on libera.chat if you are so inclined. We’re a group of wild slackers who all met on the main irc channel.
For sure… And come drop in at #slackware:matrix.org if you use matrix. Its an unofficial room btw.
Manjaro - used to love it. Now the only distro I actively advise against
Garuda - just too much ( I prefer Arch / EndeavourOS )
Elementary - wanted to love it - just too limited
Gentoo - realized I just don’t want to build everything
RHEL Workstation - everything too old
Bhodi - honestly do not remember - long ago
Ubuntu - ok, let’s expand…
These days, I dislike Snaps. Ubuntu just never hit the sweet spot for me though. I was already an experienced Linux user when it appeared and preferred RPM based distros at the tome. Ubuntu always seemed slow and fragile to me. Setting things up, like Apache with Mono back in the day, was “different” on Ubuntu and that annoyed me. For most of its history, it is what I would recommend to new users but I just never liked it myself.
Debian Stable - ok, let’s expand
I really like Debian. It was also a little “alien” when I was using Fedora / Mandrake and the like but it never bothered me like Ubuntu. I ran RHEL / Centos as servers so I did not need Debian stability. As a desktop, Debian packages were always just a little too old ( especially for dev ). The lack of non-free firmware made it a pain.
These days though, Debian has been growing on me. The move to include non-free firmware has made it much more practical. With Flatpaks and Distrobox, aging packages is much less of a problem too. I could see myself using Debian. I am strongly considering moving to VanillaOS ( immutable Debian ).
I basically do not run any RHEL servers anymore. At home, I have a fair bit running Debian already ( Proxmox, PiHole, PiVPN, and a Minecraft server ).
EndeavourOS is my primary desktop these days ( and I love it ) but it is mostly for the AUR. A Debian base with an Arch Distrobox might be perfect. Void seems quite nice as well.
I have been an Open Source advocate forever ( and used to say Free Software and FLOSS ). I have used Linux daily since the 0.99 kernels and I even installed 386BSD back in the day. Despite that, the biggest “not for me” distros right now are anything too closely associated with the politics of the GNU project. It has almost made me want to leave Linux and I have considered moving to FreeBSD. I would love to use Haiku. OCI containers and the huge software ecosystem keep me on Linux though.
The distribution that intrigues me the most right now is Chimera Linux. I run it with an Arch distrobox and it may become my daily driver. The pragmatism of projects like SerenityOS really attracts me. Who knows it may be what finally pulls me away after 30+ years of Linux.
What was your problem with Manjaro?
Ubuntu, felt like I was being treated like a child with the lack of user customizability
then I chose to jump directly into Arch Linux🙃 and saw despair from analysis paralysis, somehow I learned Arch in just a month tho🤷♀️
Gentoo - too long compile time, especially on my dated CPU. I prefer my system to update quickly.
Linux Mint - don’t like apt, some packages I installed refused to work properly (like Lutris), and the color scheme which is admittedly customizable but I prefer rolling with defaults except when using WM.
Void Linux - after installing it I realized how much I actually missed systemd, couldn’t be arsed to symlink services manually. And yes, I realize that’s the whole point.
NixOS - realized how much there is to learn with the flakes and separating home configurations and whatever, and just gave up
Manjaro - I tried it twice at the beginning of my Linux journey, and both times the nvidia driver shat itself and gave me different problems that I couldn’t fix.
Maybe I’ve been spoiled by Arch though, as most of my problems probably boil down to “not the same packages”, “not pacman”, “need to learn new skills that weren’t in Arch” and so on. Though admittedly, I did try to explore with an open mind to find a new “cool” distro, but I’d always go back.
Doesn’t Void have a tool that does the symlinking for you?
skill issue, skill issue, skill issue, skill…
/s
Honestly everything besides Debian and Arch after distro hopping for years.
I ditched Ubuntu LTS for my homelab virtual machines around 20.04 when they started to push snaps, netplan and cloud-init, meaning I would have to spend a significant amount of effort redoing my bootstrap scripts for no good reason and learning skills that are only applicable in the Ubuntu ecosystem. I went with debian stable instead, and was left wondering why I hadn’t done that sooner. It’s like Ubuntu without all the weirdness.
PopOS and Ubuntu - really just found that I don’t like gnome. Nothing against it, I know some people love it but it is not for me. This would likely apply to any gnome distro, but those were the two I tried and immediately moved on.
Honorable mention: Manjaro because “it just breaks™” but it wasn’t something I noticed immediately and initially liked the os…
Manjaro made me lose some hairs in frustration… Not for me.
Yea… That’s where my hair went… It was Manjaro’s fault… 😅
I hate GNOME so much. To each their own but I don’t want my computer to look like an iPhone.
Dude. Same.
Debian, don’t like apt.
Arch, breaks too much.
NixOs, just don’t need the tools it provides.
Any fork of a mainline distro because it’s never as good as the root.I used arch for a while, but got sick of running repairs every few weeks. I use Gentoo now, it’s stable and good. I have a fuck ton of ram and a good cpu, I also take advantage of binary packages from time to time. I don’t really need to install new things that much after having done the initial install.
For the record, Arch breaking at all is probably entirely on you.
The arch breaks were always related to keys. I would run an update and there would always be an error related to the keys. Never had a breakage due to confs.
Usually you can fix that with
pacman -S archlinux-keyringI know that, but I still hate having to. Having that as a common issue is just dumb, to me.
out of curiosity, what was breaking in arch for you?
NixOS. Every simple update (nixos rebuild switch) was just eating RAM & CPU. I managed to brick it when updating to 23.11 and couldn’t find a way out of the mess I created (even with the saved snapshots) so I said adios.