I’m posting this as more of a “know your enemy” type of thing, because Christopher Rufo is dangerous.
Spoiler, the students were NOT calling for genocide:
AP’S ASSESSMENT: False. The chant uttered during recent demonstrations is being misrepresented. Protestors aren’t saying “We want Jewish genocide,” but “Israel, we charge you with genocide.” Experts and advocates say it’s a typical refrain heard at pro-Palestinian rallies. –https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-israel-hamas-ucla-penn-genocide-057006125279
It’s false on it’s face, and just misinformation.
The questions asked of Claudine Gay were deliberately loaded questions. Any answer to “Is calling for the genocide of Jews harassment and against university policy?” can, and will, be picked apart into out-of-context soundbites for right wing media to blast out.
Saying that it’s against university policy will be twisted into a free speech issue.
Saying students are free to protest gets twisted into being pro genocide.
Any reasonable nuanced statement that correctly captures the complexity of the situation gets interrupted by republican in congress and spliced into tiny damming sounding soundbites played nonstop on right wing media.
People need to stop falling for this BS.
Here’s the thing, she should resign, not for this, but for the plagiarism… And I fully believe that the plagiarism was known first and that is why she was targeted because of it. If there was no plagiarism, in a few weeks this would die down, she could explain how nuanced the answer is, a balance between freedom of speech/expression, and students on campus feeling safe, etc.
But with the plagiarism issue, even people like me who see this as an obvious farce have to agree she needs to go. So even though the first part is loaded question BS, she gets ousted and right wing media get to claim her head as some liberal boogie man they took down. Not the real issue she needs to step down, the plagiarism.
I think answering “yes” would have worked just fine.
The letter from the students said of the Oct 7 massacre: “Today’s events did not occur in a vacuum… The apartheid regime is the only one to blame.”
Not exactly “calling for” genocide, and yes, it did not occur in a vacuum but “the only one to blame”? Really? That is support for a genocidal act IMO.
Admittedly that BBC article does cite a good response from Gay albeit a few days later.
lol, what?
So we’ve gone from the students were literally screaming for genocide, to OK so they were expressing how they think Israel brought this on themselves, which is like basically calling for genocide. That’s moving the goal post 3 towns over.
Disagree with their statement all you like, the students were not calling for violence, let alone genocide. The school should not take action against them. Future employers is probably going to be a different thing though.
Do you at least see that “Is calling for the genocide of Jews harassment and against university policy?” a loaded question now? Because the premise is 100% false.
Calling for genocide vs supporting genocide is not “moving the goalposts three towns over”. Aren’t we trying to eliminate hyperbole here?
It is however a nuanced difference Gay should have articulated in Congress. Maybe she did. Is there full video footage? I only found the snippet.
Having seen Gay’s belated but reasonable response printed by BBC I don’t think she should have been fired over that.
I can see the Congress question was loaded and the Senator is also responsible for the unfortunate messaging resulting in Gay’s dumb “it depends” response.
“Yes” was indeed the correct answer but she blew it by sticking to instructions which no doubt a lawyer had given her. She could have clarified after the “yes”. All three being questioned were not up to the task.
I have no stance on the allegations of plagiarism.
Calling for genocide vs supporting genocide…
They did neither. Saying the conduct of Israel over the past few decades resulted in the attack is a gross over simplification of the situation, but it is not supporting the attack. Just like saying the ‘house burned down because the owner left oily rags next to the furnace’ is not celebrating the house burning down. It’s a statement on what they believe led up to the house burning down, correct, or incorrect.
It is however a nuanced difference Gay should have articulated in Congress. Maybe she did. Is there full video footage? I only found the snippet.
I haven’t seen the full video either. It may exist, but I’m pretty sure it was not released (google is crap these days, it’s only giving me stuff about her recent resignation). This was a right wing hit job. Releasing snippets, rather than the entire thing is by design. Even if she did have a a good response, it won’t be released in time. All we get is the gotcha loaded questions of her looking sympathetic to genocide.
Having now seen Gay’s belated but reasonable response printed by BBC I don’t think she should have been fired over the Gaza issue.
And that’s the point of the gotcha loaded questions. They get released, the public gets angry, before the situation can be properly explained. I think it’s very likely that a democrat questioned her too and she was able to give a good response, but since the republicans are in control of the house that didn’t make it out. This may be the cause of the belated response, thinking the entire thing would come out. Harvard probably got a TON of donors calling saying they would withdraw support if she didn’t leave. And she did what most goodhearted people would do, resign to minimize the damage to the college that she cares about.
Even a “wife beater” can appreciate your points. However, if you will allow me to nitpick…
Saying the conduct of Israel over the past few decades resulted in the attack is a gross over simplification of the situation, but it is not supporting the attack.
The statement was: “hold the Israeli regime entirely responsible for all unfolding violence”.
And those kind of public statements were a gift for Likud who love escalation and now are making statements of their own (even less ambiguous) in favour of genocide.
The Western left wing got played by Hamas and Likud are now making the most of it.
Here in Australia the Green Party members of parliament (whom I otherwise support) walked out when the ruling party refused to sign a letter calling for Gazan peace. However the reason they didn’t sign is because the letter omitted any mention of Oct 7. Played.
Even a “wife beater” can appreciate your points. However, if you will allow me to nitpick…
I hope you know I wasn’t actually accusing you of being a wife beater. I thought it was the quintessential example of a loaded question and everyone knew of it… and would spark discussion about loaded questions. And how no matter what the response is, there’s an inflammatory headline that can be drawn from it that will squeak by a court of law. Apparently 1 mod didn’t know the reference.
The statement was: “hold the Israeli regime entirely responsible for all unfolding violence”.
I know, but it’s still not supporting genocide, or the violence in general.
And those kind of public statements were a gift for Likud who love escalation and now are making statements of their own (even less ambiguous) in favour of genocide.
Absolutely, they’re taking what was said out of context and turning it into propaganda.
The Western left wing got played by Hamas and Likud are now making the most of it.
Yup. Some of the blame rests with the American right wing too. Instead of trying to diffuse the situation, they poured fuel on the fire. They’re looking for any way to damage the left and don’t care about the cost. Instead of calling the statement insensitive victim blaming, and trying to calm things down, they lied to boost themselves and hurt others. This would not be propaganda for Hamas or Likud without the American right wing’s assistance.
know, but it’s still not supporting genocide, or the violence in general.
I disagree. We are at an impasse but our interim discussion was productive at least.
I reported you to the mod. It seemed to be the kind of thing I was escaping Reddit from. Am glad to hear you were not being an asshole. Certainly your reasonable tone later had me confused so I am glad I mentioned it.
I think we agree the right wing is getting the upper hand and out of hand despite public sympathy for Palestinian civilians.
Some of them probably are hypocritically subscribing to the “Elders of Zion” hoax while jumping on anything remotely anti-semitic from the Left.
I do worry about a rise of anti-Semitism whether from the Left or the Right. I don’t think Germans were genetically evil and that it could not be repeated. The thirst for scapegoating is insatiable. Jews are the eternal go-to scapegoat and so I keep raising my voice amongst fellow left wingers to ensure we don’t feed that.
Christopher Rufo is not a mastermind, and articles like this are the only reason he has any power (not directed at OP).
In the Congressional hearing the question was posed:
“Is calling for the genocide of Jews harassment and against university policy?”
And the response from Claudine Gay (Harvard president), Sally Kornbluth (MIT president), and Elizabeth Magill (UPenn president): “iT dePeNds On tHe conTeXt”.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2023/12/09/penn-president-magill-antisemitism-harvard-mit/
I don’t care if she was ousted by a right wing nut job or by winged monkeys on instruction from the Wicked Witch of the West — I say good riddance. Being black does not make her unaccountable; she should have honorably resigned after that hearing.
Being bad at mass media does not make you bad at leading a university. She was setup. They all were. By people who want Israel to eliminate Palestinians.
But isn’t public speaking part of leading a University?
Yes, you are right, they were set up, but they should have been repeating over and over that much, if not all, of the speech was free from violent content with NO actual calls to kill or harm anyone. They should have made it clear that chanting “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” at a peace rally may well be a call for equal citizenship (particularly when said by Euro/American types rallying against a distant aggression) despite sounding like a dog whistle to others.
They completely failed at that.
I missed the beginning of that hearing, but caught a fair chunk of it before turning it off as awful grandstanding by some of my least-liked politicians. I noticed the news only carried the worst bits, but honestly, I didn’t really hear any ‘best’ bits that were overlooked. I hope they had some better moments at the beginning, but while I was watching? No. As a group the University heads were just falling into traps or getting a brief reprieve without them recovering or clarifying anything.
According to Gay, students calling for the genocide of Jews can be tolerated as long as those students don’t act on it.
She could have simply said “yes, calling for genocide is wrong”.
Where is the “set up”? Asking her to be accountable to Congress?
The “set up” is that students were NOT calling for genocide, and she was answering in regards to what was actually said (which, again, was not a call for genocide). She was saying that in the context of a peace rally, wanting Palestinians to be free is a call for equality and not the same as a call to eliminate all Jewish people – though if you said the same thing while firing rockets from Gaza, it would be a call to violence (but then it would not be in English). And they were all completely incompetent and making that distinction for the cameras.
Why is the leader of a university accountable to congress? What business does congress have fucking around about this shit instead of doing the work of serving the citizenry of the nation. Fuck this culture war bullshit. That the whole country just accepts this nonsense is why there’s no longer any accountability to the public.
This all happened before Israel even struck back after October 7.
We don’t want to see a return to the Third Reich. Paradoxically it was the fascist party calling out the behavior because Democrats didn’t have the balls.
PS Using expletives doesn’t make one correct.