- cross-posted to:
- hackernews@lemmy.smeargle.fans
- technology@lemmy.zip
Last week, I turned on my PC, installed a Windows update, and rebooted to find Microsoft Edge automatically open with the Chrome tabs I was working on before the update. I don’t use Microsoft Edge regularly, and I have Google Chrome set as my default browser. Bleary-eyed at 9AM, it took me a moment to realize that Microsoft Edge had simply taken over where I’d left off in Chrome. I couldn’t believe my eyes.
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This behaviour is why I roll my eyes when the edge fanbois are all like “iTs AlL cHrOmE aNyWaY”.
Fuck any company that uses their power to try trick people into using their software, yes including google.
“iTs AlL cHrOmE aNyWaY”
This is why I use Firefox.
Firefox still needs to be compatible with the “living standard” as implemented in Chromium, it’s how the modern web works 🤷
What do you mean by ‘living standard’ ?
Google’s monopolistic and often asinine implementation of web standards that haven’t been fully set in stone by the proper internet oversight groups yet, I’d guess?
Check out the history of WHATWG vs W3C, you might get surprised by which side Mozilla is on, or where did the code for Chromium come from.
It means a standard that changes in a bottom-up way, usually defined by a reference implementation… instead of by organizing worldwide trips to have meetings, workgroups, and committees, who define whatever they pull out of thin air, then expect developers to implement by pointing to a multi-thousand page PDF that nobody knows if it’s possible to implement, much less in an efficient way.
Wait, Edge fanbois are real??
It’s crazy to me that Microsoft isn’t getting any legal pressure for doing this
This isn’t the first instance them of di**ing around. They have learnt over time that there is no consequence for such dirty behavior.
And again, install Linux and be done with this shit. Fuck Windows, fuck everything about Microsoft, don’t use their crap
Having switched Linux for over two decades now, I find the current state of Windows to be extremely weird. Why do people tolerate such abuse? Is it that the gradual degradation conditioned people to accept it? Sort of like the proverbial frog in the boiling water?
I first tried Linux around two decades ago, and it felt clunky to me - so I didn’t stick with it. I tried again around one decade ago; and it was a lot better, but I still didn’t quite have enough reason to keep using it yet. … But now, finally, I tried again several months ago - and I’m definitely sticking with it. I’m currently using Mint.
There are still some thing that I think are worse in Mint compared to Windows. But there is a lot of stuff that’s much better. It’s more than enough that I don’t expect to ever switch back to Windows again. The main thing is avoiding all the anti-features of Windows, such as the constant nagging to switch to Edge or activate their search bar; and the ads & other cruft in the start menu; and the constant little popups and ‘reminders’ about new stuff; and the lack of control in when updates are installed; and the ubiquitous harvesting of personal information, including ‘telemetry’ of which apps you run and when.
For me, one of the last straws was when I clicked on a help link from Windows settings, and it automatically opened in Edge, and Edge then automatically imported my browsing history and bookmarks from Firefox and automatically uploaded it to my Microsoft account. I was horrified that it would do something like that without any interaction whatsoever. I didn’t even think Edge had access to my Microsoft account until then, because I deliberately avoid using one to sign in, or for any other reason - the only reason it exists is because I used OneNote. I wanted the account to be isolated to just the app I used it for; not to automatically be grabbed by the whole OS and then used to collect my browsing history.
So yeah. I’d spent years of maintaining an ever-growing list of little system tweaks that I used to keep as junk off Windows as possible. But I’ve had enough. It’s too much. It’s not even close to being worth it. Linux has some minor problems, and some things take a bit of getting use to. But at least it isn’t systematically hostile.
I made that jump two decades ago. My last straw was the fact that Windows was making numerous connections online without my permission or even knowledge. One thing I can tell you though - Microsoft makes sure that you don’t regret the decision to switch. I know that some problems in Linux can be frustrating - especially driver-related issues. But you eventually learn to solve them - a solution if often just a web search away. But the freedom you get in exchange is priceless. So, hang in there and your persistence will be rewarded.
Personally I still use Windows for gaming and some other programs that work better under Windows. I’ve tried to switch, but it was just a bit too unstable to depend on for me. For me none of this shit has happened tho. No forced Cortana, no sudden Candy Crush install, no Edge fucking with my browsing. I’d rather switch to Linux full time instead of dual booting, because M$ is still pulling all these moves on others, but sometimes convenience does win.
installed a Windows update, (…) and I have Google Chrome set as my default browser
It’s subtle but if you look closely and read between the lines you can see what the real issue is.
He doesn’t use Arch btw
I’m slowly just migrating away from windows as much as I can because Microsoft is being so pushy with this nonsense. Like, they keep trying to get me to log in to a Microsoft account that doesn’t exist, they keep changing settings and asking for more permissions, they keep reinstalling stuff I’ve ripped out purposefully, and from the way they’re talking it seems like it’s just going to get worse. Stuff like putting cloud run python functions in to Excel just sounds like they’re testing tech to push more and more functions off the device and in to their centralized processing centers.
I’d consider apple but I don’t have “spend 3x as much money on the same hardware” money TBH, and really I don’t have any guarantees they won’t do the same thing Microsoft is doing.
I’ve got an older laptop that I’m slowly rebuilding my work flow in mint Linux and once I’ve got that working I’ll set it up on my main computer and be done with windows for the foreseeable future.
they keep reinstalling stuff I’ve ripped out purposefully
You’ll find every OS does that, it’s called “installing dependencies”. Even on Gentoo, there is only so far that you can go removing stuff before it turns out they either get reinstalled anyway, or everything comes tumbling down.
putting cloud run python functions in to Excel
People seem to like their cloud run functions in Google Sheets, Jupyter books, Mathematica notebooks, and similar. Can’t blame MS for trying to catch up.
Edge, unlike Internet Explorer, is not a system level dependency. There is a separately installed web view that handles that now, likely due to EU consumer protections.
It kind of still is because of Webview2. Games such as Forza Motorsport (not that you’d want to play that crap) depend on it for Xbox login purposes even if you bought the game on Steam. The game depends on the system Edge libraries and doesn’t ship its own.
Edge is a dependency of the “Internet Explorer compatibility” system feature which comes enabled by default, while the Webview feature comes disabled by default.
Sneaky? Yeah… but it’s a dependency 🤷
Python2 might be required by something. Is Edge required? And Xbox? A folder for 3D models even if I never did 3D stuff and most likely never will on that PC? If yes, why? I can’t think of anything I or lots of other people need that wouldn’t work without these and lots of other things
Edge is, somewhat ironically, required by the “Internet Explorer compatibility” feature. Xbox and the 3D folder, get installed as part of a “user experience” pack. Not sure if Edge also gets pulled as a requirement to populate the “default app” fields. Interestingly, if you never open the Xbox app, it will never fully install, even if the package gets updated.
Why do I need IE compatibility? I use Firefox. Why is the XBox app in the start menu? This is a work PC. The 3D folder (and Videos, Music, etc) just takes space in the File Explorer. I’d be fine if it created it when I save a file there, but until then I don’t want to see it
Why do I need IE compatibility? I use Firefox
If you don’t need it, then disable the feature.
Why is the XBox app in the start menu?
For the same reason ther is a “Games” menu in most Linux distros. If you don’t need it, unpin it.
The 3D folder (and Videos, Music, etc) just takes space in the File Explorer
Same thing, if you don’t need them, unpin them.
I’d be fine if it created it when I save a file there, but until then I don’t want to see it
…how would you save a file there, if they didn’t exist to save your file there in the first place?
(BTW, I don’t have a “3D Folder” on Win 11 🤷)
ye but at least on linux the dependencies arent bundled with useless applications that u dont want, and u can mostly trust em cuz open source X3
If no one is actually auditing that code, or somehow confirming that the binaries shipped by your package manager match what the code compiles to, then you’re still playing a trust game.
Trusting in open source software devs rather than a capitalist corporation definitely makes sense, but it isn’t some panacea for “safe, nonspying software”.
Also, dependencies on linux absolutely include programs I don’t want. They just tend to be less obtrusive terminal programs and libraries rather than full blown UI based shit. Less visible, but far easier to sneak under the radar.
That’s why I use Gentoo. I don’t read the code, even just Firefox is absolutely bonkers, but being able to flag out parts of code just feels nice. I know it’s not absolute, but -telemetry gives me a nice warm feeling inside.
is why the mostly trust :3 as always run code at ur own risk
and the utility programs thatr part of thhe dependencies r often there so its easier for devs to use depenancies, so they do sorta gotta be there !
somehow confirming that the binaries shipped by your package manager match what the code compiles to
Indeed, that’s why: https://reproducible-builds.org/
Right now, Debian seems to be leading with over 95% of packages being reproducible.
If you’re looking for respect as a customer, there are better reasons to avoid Apple than “spend 3x as much money on the same hardware”. They might be better on privacy and user experience fronts. But they are extremely abusive on “squeeze the consumer”, " squeeze the developer" and “give no crap about environment” fronts. While the world’s richest company demanding 30% cut of developers’ revenue citing operations cost is greed on a supreme scale, the worst is how they package their products - unserviceable, irreparable, no spare parts available, spare parts not swappable, vendor locked-in and needing extremely costly accessories. They justify all of this in the name of privacy and miniaturization - which is technically an utter hogwash. And then there is the army of annoying Apple fanbois who go around repeating these lies.
Linux Mint is nice, but also check out Pop OS. :)
No one who enjoys the Internet should be using Chrome for anything.
I use it for gmail and related google apps, nothing else.
Honestly works for me. Chrome for emails and stuff. No history, full privacy mode firefox for everything else. That includes youtube and links in emails.
Google thinks all I ever do is check my emails.
*chuckles in Google*
Firefox is your friend.
Edge also copies all the extensions you have in Chrome.
I use Edge as “that browser with full tracking and no privacy that government sites require”, so it still was a dick move… had to disable them all 😒
Everyone in this thread is complaining about Chrome. They should be complaining about MS.
Can’t we do both?
Chrome’s singular purpose of existence is to give Google an avenue to vacuum up user data - both directly and through corruption of the web standards. Edge doing this crap is merely like giving a pig a clown hat. Fuck em both.
That’s hilarious. Why would you use chrome instead of edge though? At least with edge you cut out google, with chrome you give data to both.
I’m having trouble parsing this so i might be commenting on something that isn’t there.
Current edge is a chrome re-skin with some addons, I’d put good money on it not being google free.
If you care about data going to nefarious places you probably shouldn’t be using either.
If you’re using windows you’re already giving Microsoft data so may as well
Edge uses chromium not chrome, I would hazard a guess there’s much less data harvesting going on in base chromium given it’s open source and people can see exactly what they collect
If you’re using windows you’re already giving Microsoft data so may as well
While technically correct, to me this sounds like “You haven’t managed to stop some of the tracking, why not just give them everything?” which is personally not my approach.
Not to say that my approach isn’t effort and is even effective, but I’d much rather limit the damage in the ways i can rather than give up entirely. I can see why someone wouldn’t want to put in that kind of effort though and i don’t fault them for it.
Edge uses chromium not chrome, I would hazard a guess there’s much less data harvesting going on in base chromium given it’s open source and people can see exactly what they collect
Open source yes, but not necessarily free from data-harvesting.
The fact that un-googled chromium (and others like it) exist implies that straight up chromium being open source isn’t a guarantee they aren’t doing consumer-hostile shit anyway.
Though, yes, it’s almost certainly less than full-fat chrome.
I don’t think there’s any data Microsoft can get through you using edge that they can’t also get just by controlling your OS
Nothing at all stopping them from reading data from other browsers, as has been demonstrated by the whole stealing chrome tabs thing
There are valid reasons to use windows and if you’ve gotta use it anyway they’ve already got your data from the start
I don’t think there’s any data Microsoft can get through you using edge that they can’t also get just by controlling your OS
I’d put mid-level money on that not being true. There are a lot of things going on in a browser, a lot of which aren’t particularly easy to access from the outside.
Not to say it isn’t possible.
There are valid reasons to use windows and if you’ve gotta use it anyway they’ve already got your data from the start
To a degree yes, but assuming they aren’t pulling nefarious shit in the background, there are in theory many things you can turn off or somewhat neutralise using the options in the OS to reduce the level of data collection.
They are slowly removing those options but they still exist for now.
Again, i fully understand people not wanting to go to the trouble to achieve a goal they don’t care about, but that isn’t the same as there being nothing you can do if you wish to.
It’s so easy to switch to Edge, you don’t even have to try! Literally!
Microsoft Edge is actually good, so I sure hope the team building it isn’t about to resort to more tricks to get Chrome users to use it.
Given Microsoft’s track record…
To be fair, chromium aside, edge did start as a nice browser, but as with all MS products, they end up getting riddled with more and more bullshit over time.
Just use Firefox.
Yeah and that didn’t take very long. I mean how long was it since they started pushing the “new” edge until the crapware started showing up? Only a year or 2 IIRC.
I mean normally the rule of enshittification is that you wait inserting all the crap after people have started adopting your product. They didn’t wait long enough. I always knew they would do it but at least I didn’t have to wait long to be proven right.
Still relevant after 17+ years:
The only browser recommended by Microsoft.
Made by Microsoft
Partly made by microsoft :P They put all the coupon scam and buy now pay later scams in it.
Yeah, in true M$ fashion the hard part was done by other people.
Two ways to avoid this problem: switch to linux, switch to firefox, preferably both
Unless you’re stuck in corporate hell where either one of these things isn’t possible.
yea
Look at me! I am the browser now
Pretty crazy to think they got broken up in the late 90s/early 2000s for simply including IE in a fresh Windows install (im probably over simplifying but still). Yet these days they’re pulling this kind of shit
You aren’t really over simplifying that much. IE was installed, but on first launch it loaded a website called BrowserChoice.eu where you could pick a different browser to install. It would change the default browser setting and remove IE shortcuts. The order of the browser’s was randomised similar to the way an election ballot usually is.
Microsoft set it up to comply with an EU decision in 2010, only on devices sold in the EU. However, it was only required until December 2014, so Microsoft quietly discontinued it in an update. The functionality was never included in Edge.
Edit: the 90s-00s anti-trust stuff with Microsoft and IE wasn’t just about IE being the default in Windows. It was also because they forced Apple to include it on Mac OS as the default, otherwise they’d stop developing Office for Mac. They also stipulated that Apple couldn’t develop their own competing browser and Safari wasn’t born until later.
Ironic that Apple went on to do the same thing with Safari, and more importantly the WebKit engine, on iOS. Plus now trying to force its competitors to either continue using Webkit, or maintain two seperate versions of their apps. One for within the EU and one for everywhere else
M$. M$ never changes.
I thought I had heard the worst of it. But it’s their platform. They keep inventing new ways to screw their customers.
Funny how the EU council considers iOS to be a big problem but not Microsoft’s behavior around Edge. Both need to be corrected, but only one has seen any action - and it ain’t Microsoft.
Accordingly to The Verge, “EU regulators have “tentatively concluded” that Bing and Edge aren’t dominant enough for the DMA regulations”.
I agree that both need to be corrected though. The issue is Microsoft’s behaviour being unacceptable. It also creates a nasty situation, where other corporations might argue “you allowed Microsoft to do it, so allow us too, otherwise you’re being unfair.”
Actually, I had this exact issue a year ago, had a rage fit, and bought a Mac. I hate Apple, but this was going way too far
I switched from Windows to Apple back in 2008…I have never regretted it.
Maybe you’ll regret it when your MacBook dies and you can’t fix it.
I switched to Linux instead.
I’ve had iMacs and iPhones ONLY (no MacBooks) for 16 years with no problems.
Oh good so you’re the reason we can’t have nice things…
Exactly! Apple is just a different type of abuser. This is like saying “My previous spouse was very abusive. So I chose to marry another abusive person”.
Except a PC from 2008 can still run the latest windows 10 version without any real issues (an i7 940 from that time is roughly equivalent in perfomance to a brand new Celeron g5900) while a Mac from 2008 became e-waste years ago when Apple discontinued MacOS and workarounds become harder and harder with each yearly os update. And too many Mac developers target the latest MacOS versions so if you don’t update you can’t run latest apps.
“But you can run Linux on a Mac” yeah thanks to the proprietary shit, if I run Debian on my old iMac I get only a black screen (other distros are running ok though, not all of them are without issues)