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The biggest problem with Discord is that its an information black hole. Its not properly searchable and not indexed by search engines.
Discord is fine for casual chat, but horrible when used for forum-type discussions and even worse when used for documentation.
You see the same problems being discussed and solved again and again, but you cant just “link” someone the solution like you could with a forum thread cause its spread out over 3-10 chat messages that are interleaved in-between other topics being discussed in the same room
Anything of long-term value for the project (forum-type discussions, documentation etc) should not recide in Discord
There’s going to be a lot of shocked Pikachus when the inevitable enshittification hits, and suddenly they charge to host all the documentation and wiki pages. All that barely maintained stuff will just vanish overnight.
Chat in general is so flawed when talking about multiple topics at once. At least when people dont use matrix threads, spaces and rooms correctly.
I think a happy medium for this is to rely on GitHub issues for support, and then people can discuss each issue on GitHub or Discord
Both are proprietary, closed source from US-based, for-profit entites. Same problem arises.
Any non-trivial support enquiries should be directed to log a bug report/formal support request regardless of the community platform you’re using. Discord isn’t any worse than IRC in this regard and we’ve been offering support via the latter forever.
A solution would be to save the chat log as a text file. An LLM might be able to turn it into FAQ format with little oversight. Of course, someone would still have to volunteer the work.
Obviously, Discord doesn’t want that sort of thing since it lessens their hold on a community and the people in it. They could decide to cause trouble.
That just sounds like something a discord bot could do
my main problem is issue cannot be searched on search engine
Chat and forum are different things and serve different purposes. Even matrix doesn’t solve the search problem. Use a forum for this.
yeah that is why discord should not be used for problem-solving or archival purpose. Hell, even mastodon,reddit and lemmy can be indexed properly on search engine.
Mastodon and Lemmy could be indexed relatively easily, but as all social media it raises the problem of consent on broader decimation of content that’s intended for a specific audience.
The biggest problem with traditional forums is the fact that participation requires yet another account. This is the most significant thing that discord has going for it, nearly everybody already has a discord account. Federated forums mostly solve this issue tho
is the fact that participation requires yet another account.
You can literally connect most active forum engines to eg.: OpenID, XMPP, email or any/most kinds of online identifiers. Worst case scenario you can literally enable “sign in with Google”.
Discourse is great. It needs flawless activity pub integrstion.
i don’t understand discord’s popularity at all. it’s so annoying to use
It started getting popular years ago and that’s when me an my friends switched to it too (back when I didn’t know shit about privacy). You gotta keep in mind the alternatives back then were Skype, which was meant for 1 to 1 calls, had shit audio quality and issues all the time and TeamSpeak, which was complicated because you needed a server (we were kids, we only knew what a server was from Minecraft) and had a text chat that was only a small part of the bottom of the window that was full of connected and disconnected messages, so I actually didn’t even know you could write in that. TeamSpeak’s interface also isn’t exactly good-looking or very intuitive. Then came Discord, you could create a server for you and your friends for free, you saw who of your friends was online and playing what, you could see when someone was in a voice channel and could just join, you had multiple text chats where you could easily send a link or memes while playing and you could easily share your screen with the others. It was a major improvement over the other two. I know that it sucks from a privacy standpoint but there’s good reasons why people started using it.
It was my replacement of Skype, which was leaning hard into its enshittification around that time.
What? Skype is better than discord
Not when discord launched. Discord had far better audio quality, multiple text and voice channels, and some moderation tools. Skype was basically a group chat with a group call function
Literally how
Because that’s where people are?
As someone deeply involved in Foss for many years and with multiple large Foss services running on my back, these constant requests for purity from outsiders will go nowhere until volunteers people step up to do the hard work of setting up and maintaining the infrastructure and management of such Foss solutions in the place of the core developers
? What’s the difference between setting up a free forum (they’re everywhere) versus setting up Discord channels? It’s the exact same process.
a free forum
“Oh great, I’ll have to create another fucking account” - me, already having some 300 accounts in my key-vault…
I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make unless you’re saying no one has to create a Discord account, or have to download an app, or have to find an invite to locate the server. My keys are auto-generated and auto-saved, simple 20 second process. Forums are also a lot easier to sign up for than Discord, if you’re worried about making another account I don’t know what to tell ya because every service requires it.
You set up a discord account once. When you want to join a project discord all you have to do is click the invite link and hit „accept“. Bam. Done. No need to join a forum. No need to keep track of another website and check if you got a personal message from someone or something. The benefit is that it is all one location.
It’s undoubtedly nice during that step of the process, but afterwards you’re on a platform that may not be well suited to the purpose. It’d be better just to make the new account on an actual forum. Granted, I use Bitwarden now, so I don’t sweat making new accounts anymore.
This makes me wonder if there is a centralized system for forums. We have stackexchange already, but that’s really designed to be a question and answer site.
Discourse, NodeBB and Flarum are all currently working on ActivityPub federation support. The first two have some basic support already available.
Edit: I read “decentralized”. The “centralized” system for forums is obviously Reddit.
Should we tell him that he doesn’t need more than 1 discord account?
I’m probably way out of the loop but from the perspective of devs getting to contribute, don’t stuff like Discourse ship with “login with your Github account” already? Or Google, or Facebook, or…
Also, please, it’s 1 click nowadays to make your browser remember your logins for you, if it comes down to laziness
Ease, convenience, existing userbase, familiarity, choose a few
I guess we have different perspectives. Ease, convenience = forums, existing userbase? = Do you prefer Reddit for this reason?, familiarity = forums lol, search-ability = forums, privacy = forums, etc etc.
Forums are not the same as real-time. And yes for most of the people using discord, forums wouldn’t cover the same niche.
I think you might just be blinded by Discord for some reason. I’m not sure what “niche” you’re referring to with Discord that can’t be provided with forums (unless you’re worried about cosmetics I guess?). There are forums with real-time communications like chat, notifications, direct-messaging. I’m not trying to argue, getting your perspective is always helpful and might show something I’m missing, but your responses seem vague and not really a counter-point.
My perspective is of a FOSS developer with multiple communities of thousands. If you can’t grasp it, that’s on you. It’s also why purity moralizing isn’t useful. I have only so much mental bandwidth to spend on organizing and self-hosting. If people are not stepping up to do the community management and infrastructure work, I will go with the past of least resistance.
If you can’t grasp it, that’s on you. It’s also why purity moralizing isn’t useful
oh ok, thanks for the clarification.
If people are not stepping up to do the community management and infrastructure work, I will go with the past of least resistance.
That’s basically it in a nut shell, path of least resistance. Doesn’t refute any claims made in the article or arguments presented here. Just a shame another company has a stranglehold on a whole category of services that have to be used to participate in society … while developing FOSS.
Discourse has somewhat decent chat built in these days.
Sure, I literally do this for my work. How much are you offering me?
You’re not even worth responding seriously to.
We’re on the same page then, as someone who says to go around involved in “multiple large Foss services” (no evidence to that) but that demands to be given freeloading on infrastructure by everyone else because otherwise Discord, well, is not really worth responding seriously to either.
Lol I don’t go around linking my credentials before I reply. Those who know, know. Those who don’t, check my profile, before insulting me,. And those who are useless to Foss , leave replies like yours.
I mean yeah I technically can’t offer the hosting without the authorization of my boss, but, ceteris paribus, how much are you offering?
I wouldn’t even take you if you paid me.
Can’t wait for the day Discord backstabs everyone and people decide to get the fuck away from it. I seriously can’t stand having to search past troubleshooting messages, it’s a fucking mess, almost unusable. Whoever uses Discord as a Forum seriously needs a full force punch in the mouth.
Discord already backstabbed everyone with the usernames
I miss regular old web forums, mailing lists and that sort of thing. Discord / Slack / etc have zero discoverability. The ability to google your question is gone, and knowledge is ephemeral, when a chat is the central source of community.
I’ve been finding this out at work recently. Got lazy and started doing most of my conversations via teams instead of email and now having to find shit from like a year ago is practically impossible. Even some conversations I know contained what I’m looking for just have random gaps where posts have disappeared.
I’m on board with this, but I may be biased because I also don’t like using Discord for anything else. Every time someone sends me a Discord invite I feel a little defeated, because it is usually after I have agreed to participate in something.
True. Sadly the article is over 2 years old and not much has changed since.
Because most opensource enthusiasts cry foul on the internet, want everything open-source, free and privacy centric but never contribute anything of value.
Did the author start a matrix instance yet? No?
Yes, not much has changed.
The author is the creator of sourcehut, literally a platform for collaborative open-source projects. I think he’s done a lot more useful than set up a new Matrix instance.
I get that people want a “simple way to chat” and Discord does that well, I guess. I mean, everyone’s talking about the forum aspect but what’s the alternative for chat? Mumble?
Just, please, don’t hide documentation in the Discord. A neocities page costs literally $0. Please. Think of the poor SEO consultants!
I love Immich and Sharkey but both use Discord. Sharkey even used Matrix in the beginning but eventually switched to Discord. I think their reasoning was that they were often attacked by trolls etc. and that Matrix didn’t had good options for moderation etc.
And while I love Matrix I fully agree. Yes there are moderation bots like Draupnir and they’re good but you will need to self host them and register a user for them and and and. It’s not as easy as with Discord or even Telegram bots. Also there are many Discord bots providing very fun elements like levels, reputations, roles etc. which simply do not exist or aren’t even possible in Matrix as it currently is.
On top of that we have the decentralization “problem” for end users who aren’t technical. They simply don’t care much about privacy and they don’t care if Discord stores every single message and picture in clear text forever on their servers. It’s easier to create a Discord account on a centralized platform than understanding Matrix understanding which server to choose, understanding which client to choose and understanding how encryption, key management etc. works. Yes decentralization is important and great but for the average user it’s still something that they do not really know which “overcomplicates” it for them.
And another point is that Matrix spaces are simply not the same as Discord servers. Channels are not as easy to manage because they are rooms on their own in Matrix and a space is not a server but rather a way to organize multiple rooms. Not every client supports spaces yet. Clients implement them differently. Then there’s Element and Element X on phones confusing people new to Matrix etc. In Discord several channels can be grouped in another category. In Matrix you’d use Subspaces for that giving you the same issue as with normal spaces.
And most clients don’t implement simple things on mobile like…sending multiple images at once. From the perspective of an end user that fact annoys the heck out of anyone wanting to send several pictures.
So yeah I think it’s a mixture out of those things.
Matrix especially needs better bot support with bots that could be used by everyone as it is with Discord instead of being only usable by server admins or the bots creators as it is with many Matrix bots. And it does need a better solution for spaces with rooms or another thing in the specs that replicates how Discord servers work so that it’s a “space” with actual “subchannels” without every space technically being it’s own room dangling around in limbo and just being “sorted” into the space.
And it needs better moderation tools.
Matrix sucks, that’s why most people won’t use it. I’m already giving my software away for free and providing free support for it, why would I want to take up even more of my free time running and maintaining a Matrix server as well?
Sure, I could use an already available Matrix server but I already have a Discord account, all my friends and contributors do as well and the entire thing is easy to set up and use, plus I’m already running the Discord client too.
On top of this, the argument about searchability is irrelevant. Projects have been giving support via IRC forever which has all the same problems. The best thing to do for any non-trivial support inquiries is to direct the user to lodge a support ticket and always has been.
Matrix just isn’t a compelling option, even if it had feature parity with Discord and was easier to use, it doesn’t have any real inertia anyway.
It could install itself and I still wouldn’t use it. Nobody I care about is on there and inertia is important too. This has been true since the dawn of real-time communications platforms and isn’t going to change either.
@Kushia 🤷♂️ I have the opposite situation, nobody I care about is on discord. So discord sucks? See the thing is if one matrix guy wants to talk to one discord guy, one of them needs to install a new app. And I think the world would be better if we all had more free/libre apps and less walled gardens, so I will strongly resist installing discord. Just yet another proprietary walled garden waiting for the rug-pull. Why? Just convince the other guy to use Matrix and over time our world will improve
The you’re free to use it, that’s the great thing about choice.
@Kushia Of course I am. Now I would appreciate if you didn’t come to the open-source community telling everyone how bad they are and that they are never gonna make it. That’s a pretty shit move man. Cheers.
I never said it’s never going to make it, I said I care about what works for the majority with the least amount of friction.
If you took that as a personal attack that’s on you.
From the article.
Free software matters — that’s why you’re writing it, after all. Using Discord partitions your community on either side of a walled garden, with one side that’s willing to use the proprietary Discord client, and one side that isn’t. It sets up users who are passionate about free software — i.e. your most passionate contributors or potential contributors — as second-class citizens.
Maybe you’ll take up more of your time answering lazy user’s questions than speaking with those that are helpful with solving issues.
Your argument about time is more in favor of Matrix, and even more so in favor of just using your code hosting’s issue tracker.
The article is wrong, you disrespect your users by forcing them to use a platform that they otherwise wouldn’t just to engage with you. Github isn’t free either, but the majority of us use it for free software too.
Matrix has great bots (moderation and otherwise). You just need to make your own matrix server or join one that has this stuff enabled. Developers arent „users“ they’re tech and they should absolutely be able to configure mod bots and such.
I get that matrix isnt as easy as discord and it never will be/should be. Corpo Media is an ad machine to make money. Thats why they‘re so streamlined. You can join matrix.org today and discuss with thousands of folks in many communities.
Feel like making your own? Then do it. It’s becoming easier day by day to host your own.
There is a big difference between “is unable to maintain bots due to lack of skills” and “is unable to maintain bots due to lack of time and motivation”.
There is a big difference between maintain and download a docker-compose.yml and typing docker compose up -d
What about security updates? What about monitoring? What about the underlying infrastructure? What about even picking what software to use and configuring it?
I haven’t heard of
docker compose up guess-what-i-want-and-just-do-ityet, but I guess there is some LLM that can hallucinate one for you.Obviously, having discord gobble up your data is more comfortable in any case. Still, its not that hard, especially for a tool as popular as matrix. I‘m not saying its no work, I‘m saying its not much.
Don’t fret, it’s people with your mindset that will survive the impending AI tech employment apocalypse.
Ideally “users” wouldn’t only be IT guys but also an average person. Some of my friends use Matrix to message me. They certainly are no developers or have technical IT knowledge. They certainly don’t know how to set up a bot. With discord you just add a bot to your server (equivalent to a Matrix Space) and there you go. That’s user friendly. Matrix bots work yes. But they are by far not user friendly.
We‘re talking about wildly different things here.
- A „user“ is not the person making a server (discord or matrix for that matter)
- A developer (which are the people making FOSS projects, which were the topic) is absolutely a tech person
- A matrix bot can just be invited to your space
- Hosting your own bot is downloading a script, changing some values and starting it
- Matrix is a couple years old and written by hobbyists, discord is a for profit product with dark patterns to suck people into paying for basic features
Please dont use these ignorant arguments, its obvious that matrix is the better choice if someone can afford the time to get to know it or just joins a server.
Matrix isn’t the only alternative, there’s also rocketchat
The elephant in the room is IRC. Which continues to work fine and hosts huge FOSS communities. Self hosting it is even better as you can use a more modern version like ergo.chat than the large networks sadly utilize.
You made me look again at IRC V3, seems like they support threads and emoji reactions. I might give it a try
IRCv3 has a lot of features & is good, but if you need encrypted chat and/or want to support decentralization XMPP MUCs can fit the bill similar being just a bit less lightweight.
Does IRC have a pluralkit equivalent?
But IRC doesn’t really support E2EE in 1:1 chats right? Because that’s something very important for me. I don’t want to use an app only for public channels I ideally would like to use it for everything. Including messaging the people I know.
There are some ways to make it work with OTR, but realistically speaking no.
Personally I get around that by using XMPP and connecting to IRC via the excellent Biboumi gateway. Thus I get the best of both, as XMPP is working really well for e2ee 1:1 chats.
I use IRC in Matrix, and have used IRC since the 90s, but IRC lacks many modern features, even simple things like configurable push notifications and universal encryption, perhaps ergo is better? But then again, the reason I chose Lemmy was distribution, so…
Heh, push notifications and universal encryption are about the opposite of simple and fail to work on Matrix most of the time. Most of the actually simple and useful features for a public chat are supported by Ergo though.
What issues have you had? Using Element worked out of the box for me on both. Even spun up my own server with a docker compose and it worked fine there, too.
Large public rooms have constant issues with encryption, and since you can’t turn it off once enabled (yeah 🤦♂️) most public rooms are not e2ee. Besides the fact that e2ee doesn’t really make sense in public rooms as anyone can join.
Push notifications in Matrix clients only work with the help of Google’s or Apple’s centralized infrastructure. This is of course only partially the fault of Matrix, but XMPP for example can do it without pretty well.
push notifications also work degoogled on element and fluffychat, what do you mean?
I don’t mind Discord being a centralized platform for open source project discussion, if and only if the only roles it serves specifically play to its one strength, which is real time discussion. Asking for live support (from the dev if they are there, or the community if they are not) and doing live bug triage are the two big use cases.
Should contact for these things be real time? Maybe, maybe not. Async discussion like you get on forums or via email can do the job. But if you value real-time chat, Discord does it well.
Everything else? Do it elsewhere. Do not make Discord your only bug tracker. Do not make it your only wiki. Do not make it your only source of documentation. Do not make it the only place you broadcast updates or announcements. Do not make it your only distribution platform for critical downloads. And for the love of god please do not make it the only way to contact you. I don’t care if you allow Discord to additionally do these things using integrations, that’s fine, just stop trying to contort Discord into your only way of doing these.
Is Discord the only capable option for real time chat? No. But it has several things going in its favor, namely how one can reasonably expect a good sum of their target user base is already using it independently for other purposes, in addition to its numerous QoL features.
It can also better integrate into the dev’s personal routine if they already use it independently. Like, do I have an email address? Yeah. Do I read my email on any reasonable interval? Hell no. My email inbox is little more than a dustbin for registration confirmations and online order receipts. I’ve had email for decades and I think I can count the number of non-work, non-business conversations I’ve held over it in that whole span of time on one hand. Meanwhile, I’m terminally online on Discord. So if I’m gonna be a small independent FOSS project developer, am I gonna want to interface with everyone over email? No. I’ll still make it an option, because being only contactable on Discord is cringe, but it will not be fast. Discord will be my preferred channel.
Should I put more effort into being contactable on other platforms, because it’s the right thing to do? Meh. I have no duty of stewardship to be available on platforms available to anyone in particular. I maintain this hypothetical project for free, on my own time, of my own volition, and I provide it to you entirely warranty-free. I have the courtesy to make all static resources available in sensible public places, and I provide email as a slow, async way to reach me. But if you want to converse with me directly in real time, you can come to me where I’m hanging out.
Using discord as your only store/distribution point for information is obnoxious.
How would you even use discord for that stuff? It sounds way harder than just using the proper tools.
You’d certainly think so. But never underestimate a user’s ability to jury-rig a piece of software into doing something it wasn’t designed to do, ignoring any and all obviously better solutions as they do so.
I don’t think I’ve ever actually seen documentation published on Discord and nowhere else. But I do very often see no documentation whatsoever except a “just ask around on the Discord” link serving the role.
Discord probably isn’t used as a robust ticketing system either; usually if anything it’s a bot that will push all tickets to an actual GitWhatever issue, which is fine. But again, what I do see often is projects with no ticketing system whatsoever, and a Discord link to just dump your problems at. If the issue tracker on the repo isn’t outright disabled, it’s a ghost town of open issues falling on deaf ears.
Announcements can be pretty bad. Devs can get into a habit of thinking the only people who care about periodic updates are already in the Discord server, so they don’t update READMEs, wikis, or docs on the repo as often as they should, allowing them to go out of date.
Fwiw I’ve also seen several projects that have Discord servers with none of these problems, because they handle all those other parts properly.
Devs ITT biting every single argument in the article and then saying “but it’s easy” is extremely ironic
I think you misspelled “Please use the appropriate tool for a specific job”
Which certainly isn’t Discord
Depends what job, keeping a community ? Why not. Gaming with friends ? Yeah. Keeping track of a project ? There sure are many - even - free tools to manage that
But I also don’t want to make zillions accounts, one for each project, just for a quick question.
from the article:
In short, using Discord for your free software/open source (FOSS) software project is a very bad idea. Free software matters — that’s why you’re writing it, after all. Using Discord partitions your community on either side of a walled garden, with one side that’s willing to use the proprietary Discord client, and one side that isn’t. It sets up users who are passionate about free software — i.e. your most passionate contributors or potential contributors — as second-class citizens.
Interesting to do a “s/Discord/Github/” replace on the above. Same situation yet hardly anyone gives a shit.
So yes, Drew DeVault is right. But he overestimates people’s commitment to free world digital rights principles and consistency thereof.
Same situation yet hardly anyone gives a shit.
I give a shit. Open source contributions shouldn’t require proprietary services if open alternatives (even if it requires more than a single service) suffice. In the case of Git forges, the alternatives are great–& the more you buy into the Microsoft GitHub-specific features the harder it will be to migrate which will lead to lock-in.
I give a shit.
There are not enough of you. Evidenced by ~95%+ of noteworthy FOSS projects being jailed in Github’s walled garden.
And certain projects I don’t deem it worth my time to contribute due to this fact. The unfortunate issue with that is usually there isn’t a good way to communicate that to the maintainers when they lock all coms to Microsoft GitHub & Slack/Discord. There are certain projects I have skipped on trying based on this too as to me it becomes an indicator of poor decision-making trying to capture hype/marketing rather than fostering goodwill of the free/ethical software movements. At least on Lemmy you get an upvote instead of harassed by asking for an open communication and/or contribution option 😅