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The Uncommitted Movement’s goal to get high uncommitted voter turnout in the primary so that Joe Biden changes his outdated views on Palestine and Israel is great.
However if people vote uncommitted in the primaries because they are convinced Biden is Genocide Joe then they aren’t going to want to vote for Biden in the general election.
Anyone who thinks someone who has the wherewithal to vote uncommitted to protest the genocide of the Palestinians by Israel in the Democratic-only primary but not realize that the fascist republican party is significantly worse than Biden for the general election is arguing in bad faith.
someone who has the wherewithal to vote uncommitted to protest the genocide of the Palestinians by Israel in the Democratic-only primary
Telling people Biden is Genocide Joe isn’t a nuanced position. People who think Joe Biden equals genocide aren’t voting for him now and aren’t voting for him later. An argument that ignores the inherent cognitive dissidence it would take for someone, who believes Joe Biden is directly the cause of Israel’s genocide of Palestinians, to vote for Joe Biden is disingenuous.
Truth is, I’m likely going to end up voting for Biden in the fall, because for all his faults, he is infinitely better than Trump. But I want him to fucking sweat in the meantime. Because if he sweats, if he realizes he can’t simply take the votes from the left for granted even as he gives nothing to us, maybe he’ll fucking start giving something to us.
I have no illusions that he’ll do the right thing out of the goodness of his heart, but perhaps he’ll do the right thing out of fear of losing.
It’s not a nuanced position, there is genocide of the Palestinian people occurring in Gaza literally right now. They’re actually dying and the US props up the country doing it, it’s clear Biden could and can do much more to stop the genocide. So some people call him “Genocide Joe”, people are being murdered, I assume they think something so striking is fitting. Whole families have been wiped off the face of the earth, some people get radicalized by that I am sure.
Now people who do think he is “Genocide Joe” will not vote for the other guy https://web.archive.org/web/20240306112504/https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-israel-gaza-finish-problem-rcna141905 . Argument is bunk, hell the fascist guy said he’d support completing the genocide completely while Biden holds a line of “secretly I want it to stop” which is “vaguely” better. And if they don’t vote for either because of support for the genocide on both sides, they are not people who care about the country and definitely don’t have well constructed opinions on anything else. (e.g., couldn’t rely on them for a Dem vote if no genocide occurring)
So this argument is just wrong. The crap some Dems wish for, that people shouldn’t protest Biden’s policies at all or else all will fall is inherently flawed - the US democracy is built on free speech and advocating for change. And when a people are being genocided by a US proxy, many think it is worth it to rock the boat in a safe way.
So this argument is just wrong. The crap some Dems wish for, that people shouldn’t protest Biden’s policies at all or else all will fall is inherently flawed - the US democracy is built on free speech and advocating for change. And when a people are being genocided by a US proxy, many think it is worth it to rock the boat in a safe way.
I fundamentally agree that we should rock the boat and get Biden to change his policies. What I don’t agree with is calling Biden, Genocide Joe.
it’s clear Biden could and can do much more to stop the genocide
I also fundamentally agree with this. This is the nuance. Biden has the ability to stop this conflict right now. So we need to pressure him to make that happen. As soon as possible, I should add. I have no doubt Israel’s current fascist government will make good on it’s threats to attack Rafah at the start of Ramadan. That’s the 11th of this month, next Monday afternoon. This is all completely lost with the Genocide Joe nickname.
And if they don’t vote for either because of support for the genocide on both sides, they are not people who care about the country and definitely don’t have well constructed opinions on anything else. (e.g., couldn’t rely on them for a Dem vote if no genocide occurring)
They might reasonably think they shouldn’t vote for either candidate, even when they need to be voting for the lesser evil. It’s considerably harder to make that distinction when one candidate is Donald Trump and the other is Genocide Joe. We should be making the distinction between the candidates as clear as possible. The last thing I want to here on and after election day this November is that people couldn’t tell the difference between Gush and Bore.
I’m not out to plaster Biden as “Genocide Joe” personally. But I would like him to use his influence to at least genuinely try to end the genocide so no one wants to call him that. At least Trump just said he would “finish the problem”, makes it clear he won’t be better for whoever is single-issue on the Palestinian genocide
We do need unity, I will scream for eternity if Biden loses. I want the genocide stopped so that we can concentrate on preventing the fall of the US. People are dying in droves and it needs to stop, so protest. But again, I will implode if Biden loses. So I do understand why so many people are against the protest because it breaks unity, and I understand why people are so worried. We in the US are facing the end with a single election, it’s grim
However if people vote uncommitted in the primaries because they are convinced Biden is Genocide Joe then they aren’t going to want to vote for Biden in the general election.
If he changes policy, why not? People can make mistakes. Ideally, I’d rather not support someone who has such a past history and I’d be skeptical that the change is a long-term change rather than just trying to appeal to voters in the short-term, but given the other likely outcome, someone it certainly would be a lot better outcome.
The uncommitted movement presents a safe and effective avenue for voters to voice dissatisfaction with President Biden’s policies, particularly with the Israel-Hamas conflict. By doing so in the primary, voters can signal discontent without risking a Republican victory in the general election. The purpose is to send a wake-up call to the Biden administration that it is failing to address issues and effectively engage with the party, vis a vis that Biden is enabling a genocide.
To me it seems pragmatic and meaningful while still providing space for broader party unity and success. I don’t see how this is being compared with tankie sentiment? Someone might need to ELI5.
edit: one of the accounts i’m seeing exhibit this behavior literally admitted they think anyone who uses the hammer and sickle icon is a tankie. so there we go lol.
I think people calling this tankie don’t understand what a tankie is and don’t understand the primary process in the US.
Tankie = authoritarian communist, they’re down to clown with genocide (ask em about holodomor, tankies will tell you it didn’t happen or the Soviet gov didn’t mean it as a purposeful genocide or some other shit)
Primary process in the US = only Dems vote for Dems, voting uncommitted in just the Democratic presidential primary shows “against genocide” popularity as Biden’s team have good estimates of how many Dems should have voted for him.
Thus the campaign to get people to vote uncommitted in the primary is a way to show Biden directly how many people do not support the US supporting the genocide of the Palestinian people. Which is antithetical to tankie sentiment. And since this is a primary, it is a strong way to show anti-genocide vote numbers without enabling the fascist republican party.
Anyone who thinks someone who has the wherewithal to vote uncommitted to protest the genocide of the Palestinians by Israel in the Democratic-only primary but not realize that the fascist republican party is significantly worse than Biden for the general election is arguing in bad faith.
wow ok thanks for validating me i thought i was losing reality for a second.
it sucks cuz tankies are really a terrible force but users just throwing that word around like it’s a frisbee (and for some reason getting dozens of upvotes?) just devalues it and makes this community look stupid
Exactly! Fuck tankies but this ain’t them
What’s with all the tankies recently? If they wanted to change things for the better they would organize and vote for biden, even if he sucks. The organizing is the important part anyways, voting is just damage control.
EDIT: In case it was unclear, I do not mean organize to vote for biden.
EDIT: I am an idiot. This is a primary. Don’t vote for biden if there is a better candidate.
“Tankie” is when you don’t vote for a candidate who supports genocide.
The state of the online “tankie” discourse has never been worse.
They has a hammer and sickle in their username, a symbol most socialists have abandoned because of tankies.
socialists have not abandoned the most universally recognized leftist symbol lmao
dude that’s literally not true plspls do the smallest of google searches before you post
I once asked what someone meant by it and I got multiple replies from different people with distinct opposite definitions.
People are organizing the uncommitted campaign to get Biden to stop giving billions to support an active genocide
I think most people here are all for that, but if Trump is president, it’s going to get so much worse.
Voting in a two party system is a raw deal, but it’s the only deal we have.
You do not understand the US primary system, in it only the Democrats are running against each other. Biden is popular and will win, the uncommitted vote is to show how many people care deeply about ending the genocide of the Palestinians. It is safe because there are no fascists as front runners in the US democrat primary.
Due to the two party system/first past the post the US primary is the only safe place to show discontent via vote on a national level. (And only during a 2nd term year)
The genocide of the Palestinians is a very, very horrendous action that is still taking place as I type. This has motivated a significant chunk of people to protest vote, in a way that does not enable fascists.
I think most people here are all for that
Judging by the number of memes by both groups, I don’t think Lemmy has reached any consensus. A lot of the anti-Biden stuff seems bot-like or a shill network but that might just be reflective of the intelligence of the average Trump enthusiast, who do exist here.
:/ Unionize and vote against fascism instead.
?? Unionize what ?? and this is actually a vote against fascism. Israel’s Zionist gov is very fascist and is committing active genocide against a people they view as 2nd class. This vote is getting the US government to use its outsized influence on Israel to end the Palestinian genocide.
The US primary election during an incumbent’s 2nd term reelection is the only place to safely vote like this on a national level in the US’s two party/first past the pole system. The incumbent is guaranteed to sweep, so people who care to enact a much needed end to genocide can vote to show their support for ending Palestinians being murdered.
(In the US, the term unionize is tied to worker groups acting as a collective bargaining unit and not tied to political movements)
I am very much pro palestine. I’m sorry I was not aware this was a primary, in that case voting against biden makes a lot more sense. I meant unionize in the normal way, as you defined it. Unions are an excellent place to also organize protests etc. Unions are absolutely tied to political movements. Here in norway they are/were associated with the workers party, a social democratic party, however they (the party) have been drifting farther and farther towards the center over the years.
I’ve seen people discus the election and no one brought up that it was a primary, so I foolishly assumed it wasn’t.
Ah! Yes this protest vote is symbolic and people will not make the same for the general (real). I understand your and many others’ great worry over the protest vote. No one sane and rational would call for this protest vote for the general election when the alternate (as many others in other countries are well aware, as are we here) is the demise of the US.
Unions have not been a significant force in the US for decades. They’re at least on the up and up recently as the cost of living has skyrocketed. Glad they’re strong there :) hope they won’t drift too wrong
It is a grim time in the US, thanks for your interest in us! We must prevail over fascism, we will try, and hopefully we can end the genocide in Palestine while we’re at it. Some people feel it’s “too much”, but they’re being killed rapidly there, people needed to protest where they could.
where are you from? who taught you what these words mean? tankie? unionize? you know those words have specific applications which don’t match the context in which you are using them? are you aware of how primaries work in US elections?
/genuinely asking because your behavior is very confusing.
my apologies, whenever I’ve seen people discus the election they didn’t mention this was a primary. In that case obviously do not vote for biden.
bruh ok just like be careful what you’re saying with authority, maybe don’t talk with so much confidence about things you self admittedly don’t understand lol
Yeah? So do I. But how do none of you understand game theory? You are not sending a message by not voting for biden.
You do not understand the US primary system, in it only the Democrats are running against each other. Biden is popular and will win, the uncommitted vote is to show how many people care deeply about ending the genocide of the Palestinians. It is safe because there are no fascists as front runners in the US democrat primary.
Due to the two party system/first past the post the US primary is the only safe place to show discontent via vote on a national level. (And only during a 2nd term year)
The genocide of the Palestinians is a very, very horrendous action that is still taking place as I type. This has motivated a significant chunk of people to protest vote, in a way that does not enable fascists
I love how not voting for a politician who doesn’t represent my values is a bad thing. The founding fathers would puke if they saw how things are ran today.
I can’t even tell anymore whether this meme is pro-Democrat or pro-Republican, anti-American, anti-Semitic, post-ironic or just cursed.
You do not understand the US primary system.
This me-me is anti-genocide. How could it be anti-Semitic? Anti-American? Insane you could reach for those.
People are driven by the genocide of the Palestinians to stop it. The title is jarring, divisive, and highly critical on purpose: 30,000+ Palestinian civilians are dead and counting. Biden has not done enough to end the genocide that the US enables, hence he is targeted by this me-me.
The uncommitted vote in the 2nd term incumbent US Democrat primary, which this me-me depicts, is a safe way to draw attention to the significant need for the US to exercise its power and end the genocide. Biden is not running against anyone with credible support, he will sweep the nomination guaranteed as he is a popular president.
There is no credible call to not vote for Biden in the general. If you see such a call, that is actually republican astroturfing or Russian bots at work. Anyone sane and rational is well aware the fascist republicans are worse, even if Biden does not act to end the genocide - as the fascists have already said they would “complete the mission”.
How could it be anti-Semitic? Anti-American?
If I were a Russian propagandist tasked with eroding support for Biden and reducing US influence in the middle east, this wouldn’t be a bad meme to post.
Support for Biden’s actions on the topic of the Palestinian genocide has long been negligible among those who do not want to see a peoples murdered. This uncommitted vote movement is just one more form of protest, among many. This is not the start of the anti-genocide protests. But people with any sane rational are well aware Biden will be better than the fascist alternative, come the general election.
And how is US influence in the Middle East reduced? The US props up Israel, if the US uses its paid-for influence to stop the genocide now, Israel will still be dependent on US assistance and 30,000+ civilians and most of Gaza has already been destroyed - a significant destruction of the Palestinian open air prison is already done. Israel will continue to be a US proxy.
Now not stopping the genocide is giving Iran undue influence and is reducing the US’ influence in the Middle East since the majority of the peoples in the Middle East can very easily empathize with the Palestinians’ plight.
Not ending the genocide now (and before) is detrimental to US interests and the people who are fucking dead
It really does get confusing. But 196 isn’t the most serious instance so I just let it slide, give it a lil downvote and go about my business.
Anyone that throws around “Genocide Joe” is a fascist that’s trying to undermine the actual presidental election.
People are driven by the genocide of the Palestinians to stop it. The title is jarring, divisive, and highly critical on purpose: 30,000+ Palestinian civilians are dead and counting. Biden has not done enough to end the genocide that the US enables, hence he is targeted by this me-me.
There is no credible call to not vote for Biden in the general. If you see such a call, that is actually republican astroturfing or Russian bots at work. Anyone sane and rational is well aware the fascist republicans are worse, even if Biden does not act to end the genocide - as the fascists have already said they would “complete the mission”.
Yeah I just copy and pasted shit I’ve said to others cause people just keep saying the same uninformed shit. People are dying, and the poster is clearly very moved by their plight. It must end, hence the uncommitted vote protest
GenocideJoe is the fascist enabling the mass slaughter of Palestinian children.
can we stop calling people who do the bare minimum to criticize the incumbent president fascist?
go ahead, tell them you disagree. explain your position and reasoning. i get it, you are afraid of the farther reaching effects of such messaging.
but please also get it through your head that there is a genocide happening, and some people happen to be taking that seriously. people are fucking dying. stop with the name calling and gross stereotyping.
This is messed up, and I am very confused
You do not understand the US primary system.
People are driven by the genocide of the Palestinians to stop it. The title is jarring, divisive, and highly critical on purpose: 30,000+ Palestinian civilians are dead and counting. Biden has not done enough to end the genocide that the US enables, hence he is targeted by this me-me.
The uncommitted vote in the 2nd term incumbent US Democrat primary, which this me-me depicts, is a safe way to draw attention to the significant need for the US to exercise its power and end the genocide. Biden is not running against anyone with credible support, he will sweep the nomination guaranteed as he is a popular president.
There is no credible call to not vote for Biden in the general. If you see such a call, that is actually republican astroturfing or Russian bots at work. Anyone sane and rational is well aware the fascist republicans are worse, even if Biden does not act to end the genocide - as the fascists have already said they would “complete the mission”.
Maybe you should change the US policy on Israel. Your election and millions of voters who will sit at home depend on it.