I don’t like Biden either, but anyone with half a brain knows there are two choices in the 2020 election. If we had a sane voting system, voting third party might be worth it, but as it stands, no one but you knows your favorite candidate exists and unless you want to become their campaign manager that will still be true in November. Even if you did, and even if you convinced two thirds of the people who would otherwise have voted for Biden to vote for your chosen candidate instead, Trump would still win because half the country voted for him and your guy only got a third. If you vote third party you might as well stay home.
Not voting isn’t going to stop the genocide in Gaza. The US will continue to funnel them arms no matter which candidate wins this November. Trump practically campaigns on how much he hates the Jews and he’s publicly told Israel to “finish up their war”. He’ll also make life a living hell for anyone who isn’t a straight cisgender male back here at home.
A vote for a candidate is not an endorsement of them or their policies, it’s a statement that you like their policies more than the other guy’s, and “sticking it to liberals” and “refusing to support genocide” (that’s not what voting for Biden is doing, by the way – a vote for either candidate is a vote for genocide and a vote for neither is an endorsement of both) is not more important than keeping the furthest right politician America has ever seen out of office.
How incredibly privileged do you have to be to see an entire national election as what will happen in the Middle East and ignore Trump’s campaign promises to wipe transgender Americans off the map, and further, to not realize that the same thing will happen in the Middle East regardless of which candidate wins?
I hate Biden as much as every other leftist here. But I’ll still vote for him because Trump is worse. If there’s a single bone in your body that cares about the lives of your trans friends you will too.
Liberals would rather blame leftists than actually fight fascism.
Leftist here. What are you doing to “fight,” brother?
They recommend nothing at all.
Remember comrades,
-Direct action (strike, strike, strike, preferably imo, and hold ur surplus value hostage)
-Mutual aid
-Voting to ensure you can pursue the first 2 with minimal govt interference
All are acceptable avenues. All are necessary. None are mutually exclusive.
Stop pretending to be a radical leftist when you support genocide: https://midwest.social/comment/8554707
“Support genocide” in this case means not abandoning a 70 year ally when our other allies are already worried we are fickle and support or dont support them based on whos in charge every 4 years.
Lol. Someone doesnt understand geopolitics.
We have an open trade agreement with israel. They want to buy, we say how much. I never said i supported it, but if ur curious ive been railing against the apartheid state for 15 years now simce back before i was a leftist. Doesnt change that there is no candidate thatd be capable of ending that policy on a whim.
The direct action is organizing. Creating communities and networks and advocacy. Being proactive and not fighting/alienating people.
That sounds like mutual aid to me, whereas protesting/striking/[REDACTED] are direct action, but whatever, fuck the definitions. We clearly want the same. Keep organizing and building bridges, ur spot on.
Sorry, I didn’t mean to sound like I was arguing. I am agreeing with you.
Well… i should save face somehow…hmmm…
pursue mutual aid then, fuckface, since we must argue!!! I bet u hate that!!!1!🤬😡🤬😡
/s
Sorry too much internet
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See: Weimar Republic
Indeed, you’ve spelled it out plainly: there is no vote option to end the U.S. funding of Israel’s genocide in Gaza.
I can either make a vote that won’t end it, or I can make a vote that won’t end it (and may actually make it worse, as you alluded) and will also lead to significant negative consequences for many groups of people here.
If there’s a single bone in your body that cares about the lives of your trans friends you will too.
Not just trans, but homosexual, non-white, non-religious, women.
THANK YOU.
There are several options if you refuse to vote for genocide. You have just decided you don’t mind.
Anyone who doesn’t vote immediately loses the right to complain for the next 4 years.
Don’t like it? Should’ve done your duty and put in a vote.
Fuck you, fence sitters
If you actually care about trump, actually fear what he will do, maybe you should do everything you can to push for policy that will get the fence sitters to show the fuck up, rather than insulting them.
Voting does not wash your hands of responsibility for actively pushing away the people you need voting with you.
I cant control policy. Not alone. But right now, we have this election. And it is one of two options
The idiots that are choosing to abstain or waste a vote on third party are responsible for Trumps victory if it happens. Yes, even moreso than the republicans. Because they could have defended against it but instead chose not to.
Fuck fence sitters. Fuck abstainers, FUCK THIRD PARTY VOTERS
You all deserve whatever hell comes for you.
You can yell at them all you like, but do you think that will change their minds? Do you think that does any good?
Maybe go yell at the party for dropping the ball so hard that those people feel this is their only recourse.
If trump wins, it will be the fault of the party in charge of beating him, not the fault of the people they failed to convince.
I’ve seen several in this thread who didn’t read the OP, didn’t engage with its arguments, just stomped their feet and said “but Biden didn’t give us exactly what we want so we’re not gonna”.
How can you reason with people who don’t feel like reading your argument?
Are the fence sitters in the room with us now?
yes. yes they are.
Buddy, friend, gamer. It’s march. Can you bring this out in six months? There is no reason to fill everyone’s feed up like this and sow political division on the left over seven months before it’s relevant.
Plus, the pressure looks like it’s working, so a vote for Biden might be a lot more palatable then. A lot of your work might get done automatically
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Anyone who doesn’t push for the Democratic Party to support policies that will convince those people to vote are actively doing the same. It takes two to tango, and moderates need to work with the left if they hate trump as much as they claim too.
It’s amazing that the vast majority of progressives always come around and vote for the lesser evil, yet we have to listen to this ranting every single time.
You are right that they should be pushing the Democratic establishment to do better, but there is a reason they don’t. They know that progressives are willing to make compromises, but the establishment is not.
Biden would choose Trump over a progressive candidate. We know this because he did. When the Democrats moved the first primary to South Carolina from New Hampshire, they probably threw away the NH electoral votes, and they know they will never win SC. They would rather Trump win than face another progressive challenger.
Yah, they seem real eager to scream and bash progressives and leftists for letting trump win, but are shocked and aghast when anyone suggests they didn’t do enough to push a platform and candidates that could beat trump in the election.
Youre talking about neolib politicians. You should be pursuing direct action for the changes u seek. Your vote is there as damage control to ensure we can still pursue other avenues of change or mutual aid without persecution.
As I said, progressives inevitably do end up voting for the shitty neoliberal. Exit Polls have always shown that. Then when the shitty neoliberals lose,they always find a way to blame it on progressives. That’s what makes these constant “please just vote” posts especially obnoxious.
The people in these forums are not the people you need to reach. Unlikely voters are unlikely to hang out in political discussions. If you really give a shit, phone bank, canvass, or call your representatives and tell them to quit fucking up so people won’t check out of the system.
If you want to virtue signal and play into the neoliberal spin machine, keep doing this. All you are really doing is providing space for all the right wing trolls to try and convince people that not voting is virtuous.
I disagree that having these conversations on lemmy is playing into the “neoliberal spin machine” (great term, btw). My conversation is aimed at leftists in hopes of building pan-leftist solidarity, or something of that nature. This is where plenty of leftists hang out online, so this is a reasonable place to have this discussion.
You are spot on that phonebanking, canvassing, and harassing ur rep is more effective at getting ppl to vote for Status Quo Joe.
Leftists ought to see that Biden is immeasurably better than Trump and act accordingly, but there is no solidarity to be had with the Democratic establishment.
Neoliberalism, just like classical liberalism, is a right wing political philosophy. The left must ally with liberals as necessary, but there is no “pan-leftist solidarity” possible. The establishment has betrayed, is betraying, and will continue to betray any coalition made with the left. If Democrats fought Republicans with half the ferocity with which they fight leftists, this would be a very different country.
This will be the most important election in the history of the united states. You have two choices, Dictator, or Democracy. A no vote is a vote AGAINST Democracy.
Lmao typical DNC advertisement regurgitation. This election is not ‘the most important election in history’.
Third party of bust
Oh wow you’re the guy from OPs meme
We looking at different memes, or should I clarify my stance further?
Vote for third party or bust. A vote for Democrats or Republicans is the same path we’re already on, and nobody likes this path
You’re gonna get Bust. Vote third party if you want, that’s your right (assuming you’re a U.S. citizen of course), but a vote for third party is lowering the bar of victory for the worst human alive to hold that office.
You don’t have to understand the consequences of your actions, but that’s what they are. More genocide, foot on the accelerator towards climate catastrophe, pouring gasoline on what’s left of women’s rights and setting them on fire.
It’s easy to write “fuck literally everyone except the enemies of my enemies” on a piece of paper and throw it in the trash, I don’t understand why you’d go through the trouble of voting if that’s all you want to do. There are FAR more effective methods of protest.
Every fucking election in my lifetime has been “the most important in history”
You all have cried wolf too many times. If you get eaten, it’s liberals fault.
Aye Komrad
Election of 1860: am i joke to u?
There won’t be another election if tRump wins. Komrad
Why are you trying to pressure people to vote for the guy facilitating genocide, instead of for Biden to stop facilitating genocide?
The only explanations I can come up with are either that you support what he is doing, or on some level, you understand we have no influence on policy and so trying to get Biden to do things that will get people to vote for him is a waste of time.
This same shit happened when Obama did fuckall about Bush’s policies and endlessly compromised. Of course, the voters were blamed when Obama lost the house and senate, and in 2016 too.
OP explicitly states a vote for Biden isnt a vote for genocide.
Regardless, Trump would be an absolute nightmare for the Palestinians…so your argument is not in good faith and just want to invoice emotional responses.
OP recognizes the system there is right now in the US is badly flawed, but since nobody did shit about fixing it these last 4 years you have a choice of pinching your nose and swallowing bad medicine or never have a voice again.
Well in that case, I’m explicitly stating that a vote for Biden is a vote for a dog taking a crap right in your mouth…
That’s not how it works, if you vote for the guy doing a genocide, you are voting for genocide.
I am highly doubtful trump would be worse. All his rhetoric is about ending the conflict, and he was significantly more peaceful than every other president dating back to Reagan at least. He got us out of Afghanistan and didn’t start a new war, unlike every other president since Reagan.
I am highly doubtful trump would be worse.
Lol.
🙈
Thinking Trump won’t be worse just shows your privilege. There are thousands of immigrants that can’t survive being deported, millions of women that will lose their rights, and countless lgbt people that might get murdered.
Just because your life is unaffected by who is in power doesn’t mean you can throw every body else under the bus.
A well thought out, succinct, and highly intelligent comment.
Israel is already getting all they want from the US, you really can’t call a side participating in ethnic cleansing a lesser evil, we’re already at 100% evil.
But this misses the point, to even be posting this shows that you have no hope that Biden will stop the genocide. If you expected the democrats to listen to the people whose votes they need, you’d be telling us he’s gonna do the thing we all want and stop the genocide any day now, and begging the dems to not fuck this up.
You can make the same argument as a christofascist about abortion, they consider all forms of birth control genocide and are single issue voters.
Politicians, like corporations, will never change unless forced to, I really dont expect anything from the democratic party except the status quo until enough incremental changes at the local and state level finally start pulling the countey back to the left…the other option is absolutely worse.
Being a single issue voter is ridiculous, but you do you.
The christofascists’s representatives fall over each other trying to show how christian and fascist they are, implement the policies the christofascists want by any means, and in return the christofacists vote for them.
The democrats either do fuckall or what the republicans want, and then tell us better things aren’t possible or it’s our fault for not voting harder.
Guess which one is a more effective electoral strategy?
Now is the time to pressure Biden. This is the tender time where leftists can actually force consessions, and those won’t happen if you “Vote Blue no matter who” the situation as Biden is actively facilitating a genocide. Even if you ultimately plan on voting for him, you must pressure him now as though you may not, or you will be spinelessly contributing to even more genocide.
Biden supports genocide because Israel is a valuable ally to the US empire as a foothold in the Middle East, and will only go against that if it looks like it may cost him the election. Do not assume Biden is a good person that just needs to “see reason,” that’s utter Utopianism. Biden has his interests, and we have ours, so to steer him we need to fight hard, now.
Please save this sentiment for after Leftists have successfully pressured Biden into ending the genocide, not while he is actively arming Israel.
I hate Biden as much as every other leftist here. But I’ll still vote for him because Trump is worse. If there’s a single bone in your body that cares about the lives of your trans friends you will too.
I’m a trans person. Here’s what I’m most concerned about: the dehumanization of Palestinians and immigrants. Biden has gone along 100% with the dehumanization of these groups
how the fuck am I supposed to trust Democrats that claim to support trans people when this is how they support Palestine? This is a president thats supporting an ongoing genocide while persuing draconian immigration policies. Am I supposed to just throw those groups under the bus for my own personal gain?
You’ve made it abundantly clear that if Biden was pushing anti-trans policies, you’d still support him. You’ve made it clear there is absolutely nothing Biden could do that would lose your support.
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It’s like that old poem:
First they came for the immigrants.
So I also went after the immigrants, because the other side was going to go after them worse
Then they came for the Palestinians.
So I also went after the Palestinians because the other side would’ve gone after the Palestinians even worse…
May I screenshot and reshare this? I’ll blot out your name.
Lol go for it
As an immigrant, I’m terrified of Trump being president again
As a trans person, same. I will personally be much, much safer if Dems win in November
Even if they don’t do this one thing better
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It’s not “just one thing”
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One of those things is making a straight up genocide possible
If we’re not actively trying to get him to change course now while he’s the sitting president, then I scarcely see the point in voting in November. If we’re going to tolerate a genocide and the myth of a “border crisis” to extend the arm of fascism. If we’re not willing to speak up now, then that means we’re not willing to stand for LGBTQIA+ people either. And make no mistake about it: Biden is not an ally.
I’m not saying don’t vote, but I’m saying now is the time to pressure him to change course. He’s not going to do so on his own. He’s less moral than the worst serial killer, to put it into perspective.
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What do you think shapes the policy of the Democrats, their morals, or their material goals? Do you think politicians are just “good” and “bad” people who can be swayed by a good conversation, at large, or do you believe policy is dictated by material realities?
How do you wish to get meaningful change?
People need to understand that it’s possible to vote against genocide.
No, it doesn’t matter that he’s an active participant in the apparatus that’s creating the genocide, because if he’s in office there’s less genocide. Which is the important part, and pretending otherwise is sophistry. If you abstain from voting, you are increasing the likelihood of more genocide and if you discourage others from voting, you are an active participant in the overall social apparatus that is probabilistically increasing the amount of genocide.
The utility calculation is dead simple: more votes for Biden in key states makes more genocide less likely, and discouraging people from voting for Biden makes more genocide more likely. Therefore, discouraging people from voting for Biden is a pro-genocide strategy and voting for Biden in battleground states is an anti-genocide strategy. I live in a solid blue state, so I reserve the right to vote third party, but I will also encourage other people to vote for Biden.
You should vote for Biden unless you live in a solid blue state, and even then it’s not a bad idea.
Edit: grammar correction
The endgame of your utility calculation is genocidal. 30 years from now, I suspect you’ll still be blasting this “vote blue no matter who” nonsense when the choice is between a dem supporting 5 genocides and a repub supporting 10 genocides. You’ve been anchor biased hard as fuck.
What’s your plan that makes the endgame not genocidal? Remember to make it fit reality.
You say “make it fit reality”, but why do I feel like what you really mean is “make sure it does not at all challenge US hegemony”.
If your ecocidal political project whose institutions were devised a blink ago by 30 year old slavers starts going genocidal, your project has lost the right to exist. To put it plainly, I think we all have a duty to start thinking about what dismantling the genocidal US empire would look like: reading marx, getting armed, building networks, embracing anti-capitalism, and preparing for this country’s undeniably inevitable backslide into fascism.
In your hypothetical 30 years in the future scenario, this would still be a “more genocide” and “less genocide” pick. We should never have genocide but there’s no way to express that in the US binary voting system, so the choice would have to be tactical.
What do you propose instead?
I’m a transhumanist; my endgame is the abolition of all hardships including involuntary death. I want as many as possible among the those alive today to experience the universe beyond the fading of the last stellar remnants. That means clawing and fighting in every way I can and know how to allow as many people alive now to continue living. That means less genocide is better than more genocide, which in turn means that the immediate goal is making a Biden victory as likely as possible as I prepare more long-term projects. The long-term projects eliminate genocide. The Short term projects mitigate genocide. More successful short term projects increases the likelihood of more successful long-term projects.
In short: it is incredibly small-minded, presumptuous, and uncharitable of you to assume that I think voting is the only part of this massive game. Fuck off.
Wow how edgy. I don’t like either candidate so I’ll protest-stay-home. As if not voting is a form of protest.
Actually I’m legitimately curious. Where did that idea come from? Where did you get the idea that voting = endorsement.
If you were stranded in the wilderness and your options were to eat bug1 or bug2, would you choose to starve to death because “well, I just don’t want people to think that I enjoy eating cockroach”. Get over yourself and your childish mindset. Choosing not to participate is still making a choice.
Maybe when the maga fanatics come for your lgbt+ friends and family you’ll think differently. Or maybe not. I don’t know you or how comfortable you are with the maga end-game.
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Fucking hell, the liberals are using trans people as an excuse to throw the palestinians under the bus.
Look, if you’re going to disregard the palestinians’ human rights, then there will come a time when you’ll do the same for trans people, and they are amart enough to know that.
The queer people’s greatest strength is solidarity so spoiler alert, this won’t really fly, how about you use your vote as a bargaining chip instead of sTrATegIcALly voting no questions asked?
See what happens to the Palestinians when Trump gets elected you lazy piece of shit. I’m done with you self-serving assholes.
See what’s happening to the Palestinians now under Biden.
Tell me why you think it would be different under Trump.
Edit: Did you even read the article you linked? That is Trump telling Israel’s leader that he needs to stop attacking Palestinians. Do you think that’s bad?
I never said or implied that it would be. It won’t be different under Biden either. Which is my point.
Although there is a case to be made about Biden’s long history of gleefully jumping at every chance he gets to murder Arabs over his entire political career.
Edit: Did you even read the article you linked? That is Trump telling Israel’s leader that he needs to stop attacking Palestinians.
I simply do not think that is true. Here’s an article from Politico in which he describes himself as “the most pro-Israel president ever” and implies he endorses the continued use of force.
I never said or implied that it would be. It won’t be different under Biden either. Which is my point.
And your proposed alternative is what? Voting third party? Even if you convinced two thirds of the people who would otherwise have voted for Biden to vote for the same third party candidate instead, Trump would still win because half the country voted for him and your guy only got a third. It’s not viable. Never will be as long as we use first-past-the-post.
Although there is a case to be made about Biden’s long history of gleefully jumping at every chance he gets to murder Arabs over his entire political career.
Tell me more about that.
Advocating people put political pressure on a candidate to change policy = lazy.
Getting off your ass once every few years to vote, and do it unconditionally = the embodiment of activism.
ps. Calling me lazy for not voting in the americans’ elections is a very smart move.
A bargaining chip backed by what? “Clean up your act or you’ll lose one of your approximately 100 million votes?”
Oh, but no, we should get all our friends in on it too, so they’ll lose maybe 10,000 of their 100 million votes if they don’t clean up their act.
No one but you knows your favorite third-party candidate exists, and unless you want to become their campaign manager that will still be true in November. Even if you did, and even if you convinced two thirds of the people who would otherwise have voted for Biden to vote for your chosen candidate instead, Trump would still win because half the country voted for him and your guy only got a third. If you vote third party you might as well stay home.
Not voting isn’t going to stop the genocide in Gaza. The US will continue to funnel them arms no matter which candidate wins this November. Trump practically campaigns on how much he hates the Jews and he’s publicly told Israel to “finish up their war” so that life for Israelis can go back to normal. He’ll also make life a living hell for anyone who isn’t a straight cisgender male back here at home.
A vote for a candidate is not an endorsement of them or their policies, it’s a statement that you like their policies more than the other guy’s, and “sticking it to liberals” and “refusing to support genocide” (that’s not what voting for Biden is doing, by the way – a vote for either candidate is a vote for genocide and a vote for neither is an endorsement of both) is not more important than keeping the furthest right politician America has ever seen out of office.
Why dont you pressure Biden to stop genociding people then? I have a hard and fast rule about genocide, sorry but present day me doesn’t make the rules about who I vote for.
Do you believe Trump/Republicans will decrease, maintain, or increase the current genocide levels?
I mean Biden spent more on the immigrant wall than Trump, so prob less genocide somehow, seeing as how there is precedent. Funny how none of the presidents tackle the corporation side of the “immigrant problem” by going after people hiring the undocumented if that is such a big problem. You remove the incentive that would slow it down more than trying to torture people at the border no?
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Well I’m glad you live in a fantasy world where your abstinence doesn’t have real world impact that is demonstrably worse, specifically in regards to the very genocide to which you refer, but unfortunately the rest of us live in the real world where sometimes we have to evaluate the weight of ideological purity vs real world harm impact.
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Pumpkin Spice Latte ain’t winning a thing. That’s exactly as good as not voting, which benefits republicans every time.
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How childish. Get your head out of your own ass please.
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“My argument is simpler than my opponent’s, therefore it is correct”
The point of examining the straightforward morals of not supporting genocide in opposition to the convoluted justifications people put forward as reasons to vote blue no matter who was not to say that the simplest reasoning is correct, but to shine some light on the assumptions, misunderstandings and vast overvaluation of an individuals voting impact that underpin that argument.
You have to build a fucking mind palace to not just look at the two major parties, say “no thanks, I’m a human being with a soul and heart that feels” and walk away. That’s the point.
I do not know how to tell you that not voting will not make neither candidate win.
At no point have I suggested that people abstain, although it’s better not to vote than to perpetuate either of the two major parties.
And how do you propose doing that?
Idk what you mean or are asking…
Not perpetuate either of the major parties. How do we do that, if not by abstaining?
You’re just trying to get anti-Trump people to not vote so Trump can win. Anyone with half a brain knows that Joe Biden didn’t do a genocide.
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Trump is your man all the way!
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Your vote or non-vote is just effectively counted for trump. Fly the Maga flag proudly!
Are votes for Libertarians votes for Biden? Is that how it works?
Yeah. Last election, I campaigned hard for Jo Jorgensen and Spike Cohen, then I voted for Biden. It was an effective strategy to siphon off the pedophile and racist-but-likes-weed votes away from Trump. A vote for a non-viable third party is just as effective as voting against the real candidate that most closely aligns with your views.
Why not try to actually educate others, rather than manipulate them?
Why not both? That is not my only strategy in life. I educate those willing to learn and I manipulate those trying to intentionally harm humanity.
Your vote or non-vote is just effectively counted for trump. Fly the Maga flag proudly!
The thing is, the game theorists aren’t wrong. If you want to vote your feelings, that’s your right. It’s exactly what the ~1/3 of Trump supports are doing.
And much like them, you aren’t even required to understand the consequences of your actions to do so! (Assuming you’re privileged enough to never have to face them, of course)
For the game theorists to not be wrong, endorsing a genocide has to also not be wrong.
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If moderates really don’t want trump to win so bad, maybe they should make some real commitments to policy changes that the left want, not just half baked, watered down “market based” solutions that get shredded to a skeleton in committee.
Moderates can scream their lungs out all they want, but talk is cheap, and if they want the left on side they should earn that and not act so entitled to their support. Trump is bad, he shouldn’t win, but why is it on the left to keep him from winning? Why is it never the moderates fault for failing to hold up their end of the coalition?
Bc the left has a really hard time coming together and we wont get another election if we dont.
Stop pretending to be on the left.
https://midwest.social/comment/8554707:
“Support genocide” in this case means not abandoning a 70 year ally when our other allies are already worried we are fickle and support or dont support them based on whos in charge every 4 years.
Lol. Someone doesnt understand geopolitics.
We have an open trade agreement with israel. They want to buy, we say how much. I never said i supported it, but if ur curious ive been railing against the apartheid state for 15 years now simce back before i was a leftist. Doesnt change that there is no candidate thatd be capable of ending that policy on a whim.
