IninewCrow ( @ininewcrow@lemmy.ca ) English89•3 months agoUkraineUnited States is going to lose if Congress doesn’t send more aidThe fact that everyone understands that the war in Ukraine is based on American backing means that it’s a proxy war between the US and Russia.
Melkath ( @Melkath@kbin.social ) 59•3 months ago$773 billion dollars last year spent on fighting “proxy” wars around the world (and if you count the spying, domestically).
The only one that America has actual moral footing to get behind is the only one we are pulling punches on.
The free world loses when Russia wins.
It’s pretty much an invitation to China to do the same in Taiwan and an invitation for Russia to start more wars in eastern Europe…
Helping Ukraine costs money. Not helping Ukraine costs even more.
я не из калининграда ( @imnotfromkaliningrad@lemmy.ml ) 29•3 months agowait, you are not being ironical?
how the fuck do you manage to claim that the west is the free world™ while it is the empire to blame for the largest amount of worldwide suffering in the second half of the twentieth century? It is responsible for countless invasions, sanction regimes and assassinations with the goal of subjugating foreign nations, as well as courting nazis post ww2, like for example people like klaus barbie or wernher von braun, as well as the entire early government of the frg.
your fantasizing about a supposed military threat from the prc to taiwan and from russia to the rest of europe is nothing but pure projection, since you westoids apparently cant imagine someone acting from a different motivation than your own. the prc has time and time again stated that it prefers a peaceful resolution to the taiwan conflict and the province has never officially declared any grade of independence from the mainland, simply being under a different government, the roc.
russia on the other hand has absolutely no reason to start any military conflicts in western europe, something you would know, if you would even try to understand the lead up to the current situation.
your last sentence honestly just sounds like a thinly veiled blood for the blood god.
cobra89 ( @cobra89@beehaw.org ) 10•3 months agoFWIW, there are plenty of politicians in Europe who disagree with you, it’s not an American take, here’s a quote from Lithuania’s PM:
“the outcome of this fight in Ukraine is crucial for Europe.”
“If Putin is not stopped in Ukraine, then whatever happens next is Europe’s problem at large,” she said. https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-not-stopped-in-ukraine-all-europe-problem-lithuania-pm-2024-3?op=1
я не из калининграда ( @imnotfromkaliningrad@lemmy.ml ) 11•3 months agolithuania, like all the baltic states, is a us puppet state. also they are so obviously fascist that they even erect monuments to literal nazis.
cobra89 ( @cobra89@beehaw.org ) 7•3 months agoOkay, now come up with an excuse for Germany:
https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-and-ukraine-sign-security-agreement-scholz-zelenskyy/
cobra89 ( @cobra89@beehaw.org ) 7•3 months agoAlso if Europe isn’t concerned about Russia, why has Europe’s defense spending drastically gone up? Clearly there is more going on than your blase attitude is implying.
istanbullu ( @istanbullu@lemmy.ml ) 27•3 months agoDoes the free world also include places America has invaded or bombed?
davel [he/him] ( @davel@lemmy.ml ) English10•3 months agoThe free world 😂 Okay boomer 🇺🇸 🦅
bufalo1973 ( @bufalo1973@lemmy.ml ) 5•3 months agoYou mean the “free world” that has Assange, Pablo González and lots of other journalists jailed? The same free world that has destroyed every country that didn’t fall in line with US interests?
Karyoplasma ( @Karyoplasma@discuss.tchncs.de ) 63•3 months agoYes, no shit. That was the outlook from day 1.
The Russian Army is largely represented as a bunch of baffoons in the Western media, but it’s still one of the 3 largest armies in the world. Ukraine cannot hold their lines indefinitely, the only way to “win” against an opponent that has multiple times your materiel available is guerilla.
mycathas9lives ( @mycathas9lives@mastodon.social ) 6•3 months agoThen guerilla it is!
Track_Shovel ( @Track_Shovel@slrpnk.net ) English14•3 months agoWhat the fuck did you just say to me. Motherfucker?
E: I live in an age where people don’t get the Navy Seals copy pasta. This is it. I’m officially fucking old.
boogetyboo ( @boogetyboo@aussie.zone ) 12•3 months agoEh it feels like a low effort Reddit response. Copypastas can stay there.
Track_Shovel ( @Track_Shovel@slrpnk.net ) English3•3 months agoThanks, Unidan.
boogetyboo ( @boogetyboo@aussie.zone ) 5•3 months agoYeah… More Reddit stuff. No thanks.
Aradina [She/They] ( @Aradina@lemmy.ml ) English8•3 months agoPeople know the copypasta, you just said it wrong. The opening insult isn’t motherfucker.
mycathas9lives ( @mycathas9lives@mastodon.social ) 4•3 months agoI said your momma looks good in combat boots
No_Eponym ( @No_Eponym@lemmy.ca ) 3•3 months agoMade the same mistake before too. Lemmy learning curve.
Alsjemenou ( @Alsjemenou@lemy.nl ) Nederlands48•3 months agoPeople in this thread clearly don’t understand what the implications are. There is a very clear danger of war on the European continent that will involve NATO and by proxy the US. Aid for Ukraine is the absolute cheapest option. Europe is not going to just let Ukraine fall and will ramp up their involvement. We already have France willing to send troops.
umbrella ( @umbrella@lemmy.ml ) 15•3 months agothe US is already involved by proxy
Sonori ( @sonori@beehaw.org ) 5•3 months agoBut Amarica bad, hypercapitalist dictator good.
Fire Witch ( @tiefling@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) 44•3 months agoRepublicans are thrilled
istanbullu ( @istanbullu@lemmy.ml ) 42•3 months agoIt is a bad idea to trust and rely on Ameeica. Some Afgans learned this lesson in 2021, the same is happening to Ukraine now.
Fidel_Cashflow ( @Fidel_Cashflow@lemmy.ml ) 34•3 months agoMany such cases!
Arcturus ( @Arcturus@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) 37•3 months agoGaddafi’s is just sad. Such a terrible decision to give up their nuclear deterrence and trust western governments.
Nukes are why the DPRK hasn’t been invaded again, and why it hasn’t ended up Libya is now.
Something Burger 🍔 ( @SomethingBurger@jlai.lu ) 19•3 months agoUkraine gave up their nukes in exchange for peace with Russia, then got invaded by Russia.
Pascal ( @Pascal@lemdro.id ) English22•3 months agoUkraine was very much at peace with Russia as it always had been before the 2014 coup and the resulting fascist gov that didn’t care about such agreements.
Something Burger 🍔 ( @SomethingBurger@jlai.lu ) 19•3 months agoThe fascist government is the one invading Ukraine, my guy.
davel [he/him] ( @davel@lemmy.ml ) English21•3 months agoHow many times are we going to go over this, my guy?
- BBC, 2014: Ukraine underplays role of far right in conflict
- Human Rights Watch, 2014: Ukraine: Unguided Rockets Killing Civilians
- Truthout, 2015: The Ukraine Mess That Nuland Made
- The Hill, 2017: The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda
- The Guardian, 2017: ‘I want to bring up a warrior’: Ukraine’s far-right children’s camp – video
- WaPo, 2018: The war in Ukraine is more devastating than you know
- Reuters, 2018: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem
- The Nation, 2019: Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine
- The Conversation, 2022: Ukraine war follows decades of warnings that NATO expansion into Eastern Europe could provoke Russia
istanbullu ( @istanbullu@lemmy.ml ) 10•3 months agothey weren’t ukrainian nukes. they were soviet nukes and ukraine didn’t have the money or expertise to take care of them.
davel [he/him] ( @davel@lemmy.ml ) English11•3 months agoI wouldn’t put it that way exactly. Ukraine was a constituent part of the USSR, and eastern Ukraine was a major industrial hub. I don’t know the history of it, but perhaps giving the nukes to Russia was part of the deal made in the Post-Soviet transition in Ukraine.
istanbullu ( @istanbullu@lemmy.ml ) 5•3 months agoRussia inherited the Soviet military for the most part. It’s unlikely that Ukraine could have used those nukes in the first place.
caveman ( @caveman@lemmy.ml ) 5•3 months agoSad, but true
cobra89 ( @cobra89@beehaw.org ) 4•3 months agoGaddafi is another example yes, but let’s not have any sympathy for a horrible dictator that tortured and abused his subjects to the point where they sodomized him with a bayonet.
Arcturus ( @Arcturus@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) 22•3 months agosubjects
You mean insurgents funded by the west after having them give up their nuclear deterrence because it posed a major threat to capitalism/imperialism in the region.
Libya went from one of the poorest countries in the world to having the highest human development index in Africa by 2010 under the socialist government. Housing and healthcare were made a human right and youth literacy reached pretty much 100%.
Yes, I’ll have sympathy for the country that was basically extorted by the west through brutal sanctions into disarming itself so it could be invaded and destroyed, as any human should.
cobra89 ( @cobra89@beehaw.org ) 4•3 months agoHe made it better for Arabs, everyone else was treated horribly. But hey I guess being a dictator is fine as long as the people you like are being treated okay and fuck everyone else. How very Modi of you.
davel [he/him] ( @davel@lemmy.ml ) English18•3 months agoHe made it better for Arabs, everyone else was treated horribly.
Who was everyone else?
But hey I guess being a dictator
Libya in Gaddafi’s time was more democratic than the United States has ever been. Libya: How To Kill a Nation
When Five Eyes governments and corporate media tell you that someone’s a “dictator,” they do it to manufacture consent for regime change.
Arcturus ( @Arcturus@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) 14•3 months ago[citation needed]
davel [he/him] ( @davel@lemmy.ml ) English20•3 months agoGaddafi was a leader in the liberation struggle against the Global North’s imperialism.
It was Gaddafi who was sodomized with a bayonet. Wikipedia: Killing of Muammar Gaddafi
The NTC initially claimed Gaddafi died from injuries sustained in a firefight when loyalist forces attempted to free him, although a video of his last moments shows rebel fighters beating him and one of them sodomizing him with a bayonet before he was shot several times.
In typical US fashion, it fabricated atrocities as a pretext for regime change: 2011 Libyan rape allegations
Three women, loads of lies and the destruction of Libya
Hillary Clinton, Susan Rice and Samantha Power were the three principal advocates of war against Libya in 2011, setting the North African nation on a free fall ever since. Demonstrations broke out in some Libyan cities against the government of late Muammar Gaddafi in February 2011, in what became known as the “Arab Spring” that engulfed the region. However, Libya’s promised spring turned into a destructive autumn during which Gaddafi was murdered on 20 October, 2011, and Libya was left anguishing in lawlessness, courtesy of the three women.
The US does this all the time; it’s still doing it. The blueprint of regime change operations
caveman ( @caveman@lemmy.ml ) 9•3 months agoFight for “democracy” /s
CableMonster ( @CableMonster@lemmy.ml ) 24•3 months agoUkraine is going to lose with aid, all giving them more money does is allow them to not negotiate for longer.
millie ( @millie@beehaw.org ) English15•3 months agoIf you think Ukraine won’t muster a guerilla resistance fierce enough to make France blush you haven’t been paying attention.
Not_mikey ( @Not_mikey@slrpnk.net ) 9•3 months agoWhat makes you think their gonna start now after it’s been going for more than two years and there even having trouble conscripting in western Ukraine ?
If they’ve ran out of volunteers in the more nationalist west how are they going to find them in the occupied territories where patriotism to Ukraine has always been lower?
millie ( @millie@beehaw.org ) English11•3 months agoBecause you have to be occupied before you can do guerilla resistance? Also because guerilla activities require fewer personnel than an armed mobilization?
If Ukraine fell to invasion, as in like their lines collapse and they lose the territory they’re currently holding, now every Ukrainian who might consider fighting is already behind enemy lines. Instead of being concentrated physically and very obviously defending themselves you’d have a very pissed off post-invasion population able to act inside of occupied territory. Look at the resistance fighters in occupied France in WWII. Putin isn’t going to have an easy time even if he manages to push an invasion force through.
Good luck holding a country that fights as hard as Ukraine.
CableMonster ( @CableMonster@lemmy.ml ) 5•3 months agoThat isnt really relevant because Russia would get what they are looking for in the end no matter how much of a resistance there is. All they need to do is finish off their army, and not allow a new government to form and they have achieved their goal.
drathvedro ( @drathvedro@lemm.ee ) 5•3 months agoIt’s not like Russia haven’t dealt with those before…
snaggen ( @snaggen@programming.dev ) 13•3 months agoFound the vatnik.
CableMonster ( @CableMonster@lemmy.ml ) 15•3 months agoSorry if you cant handle the truth, its just the objective reality of the facts.
snaggen ( @snaggen@programming.dev ) 12•3 months agoas told by the Kremlin. Good Comrade
snaggen ( @snaggen@programming.dev ) 6•3 months agoOoohhh down voted, guess the Russian troll army don’t like being called out.
Drusas ( @Drusas@kbin.social ) 10•3 months agoNo, it’s your opinion.
CableMonster ( @CableMonster@lemmy.ml ) 14•3 months agoIts the opinion of everyone that has any level of information of the situation and is honest.
TranscendentalEmpire ( @TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee ) 12•3 months agoReally depends on what you mean by loose, and what constitutes a win for Russia.
Russia’s original objective was to waltz to Kyiv and kick down a rotten door, expecting the house to follow. Well that didn’t work out, so what’s the new objective?
Is a win occupying all of Ukraine, just the peninsula, or just realizing the new territory in donbos? If you are talking about the peninsula or the breakaway territory, yea they could probably get away with that pretty easily, but that’s pretty much where we started. But, I would hesitate calling it a win to waste generations worth of military equipment and men to maintain the status quo.
If you are talking about permanently occupying the entirety of the country… I’m not really sure if that’s even an obtainable goal? They are still fighting for every kilometer in eastern Ukraine, and defences will only get tougher as you head west. Plus, they won’t want to utilize the type of bombardments they use to avoid urban combat in the larger eastern cities. At least not if they are the ones who are expecting to pay the bills when this is all over.
This whole venture is only profitable if they actually get to fully integrate Ukrainians into the Russian federation, and with how bloody this war has been, that means a significant occupation force, likely over half a million soldiers.
CableMonster ( @CableMonster@lemmy.ml ) 6•3 months agoWin in my opinion would be have the ability to control all of Ukraine eventually, or force Ukaine to capitulate. Maybe they would not be able to occupy because that was never their goal, it was to stop Ukraine from joining nato.
TranscendentalEmpire ( @TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee ) 7•3 months agoWin in my opinion would be have the ability to control all of Ukraine eventually, or force Ukaine to capitulate.
I wouldn’t say they’re doing so well on the hearts and minds front…
As far as capitulation, that’s what we’re talking about here. What could they possibly capitulate too that would be considered a win at this point? Just about the only thing that would come close is the entirety of Ukraine, and maybe a chunk of Moldavia? That’s going to be an occupation, and everyone knows how well those go these days.
was to stop Ukraine from joining nato.
Okay, well mission accomplished. You stopped a neighboring nation from potentially joining, and scarred two other neighbors into the express lane.
Plus, I don’t think that’s really an academically honest opinion. It would be like saying America invaded Iraq because they had weapons of mass destruction.
A lot of Ukrainians were not really excited about NATO prosperity until Russia started pulling the same shenanigans they did in Georgia and Moldavia. It’s not exactly a new tactic in Russia’s foreign policy.
pelikan ( @pelikan@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) English17•3 months agoDefinately NOT proxy cannon fodder
Lad ( @AFC1886VCC@reddthat.com ) 15•3 months agoCountries will get fed up of sending aid to Ukraine long before Russia decides to return its annexed territories. We’re already seeing signs of that.
If NATO isn’t willing to go in and force the Russians out themselves, I fail to see how this war is anything but a net gain for Russia. They will just sit back and let their “new territories” become more and more Russified.
To me, the aid is just a delaying tactic to allow Ukraine to continue fighting until the west can figure out a way to accept that Ukraine has lost its territories without losing face.
It’s a shit show, but I don’t share the optimism that a lot of people have for a Ukrainian victory. It’s like a game of chess, and it’s currently Ukraine/NATOs turn, because the Russians are already dug in.
rbesfe ( @rbesfe@lemmy.ca ) 4•3 months agoOver 100k dead Russians isn’t really a “net victory” regardless of territory gained
caveman ( @caveman@lemmy.ml ) 4•3 months agoUkraine=Palestine. Noone will fight for ir and will get robbed by the powerful bandit, Israel (Rússia).
Except that US politicians pretend it’s the opposite
davel [he/him] ( @davel@lemmy.ml ) English17•3 months agoUkraine=Palestine and Israel=Russia is peak Marvel brain.
soggy_kitty ( @soggy_kitty@sopuli.xyz ) 3•3 months agoGermany=Britain
InputZero ( @InputZero@lemmy.ml ) 1•2 months agoWhat’s Marvel brain? I tried looking it up but just got a bunch of marvel characters with large heads.
davel [he/him] ( @davel@lemmy.ml ) English3•2 months agoIdealist, cartoonish, black & white, good vs. evil thinking. Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists thinking.
Imperial core governments and the corporate media present to us a cartoonish, Marvel Cinematic Universe version of the world that serves the capitalist class’ interests, particularly their imperialist interests. Inventing Reality and Manufacturing Consent laid this out almost 40 years ago.
Ukraine=good=democracy, Russia=bad=authoritarian. Russia’s invasion was unprovoked because history began on Feb. 24, 2022. Russia is doing genocide (bullshit), never mind the previous decade of Ukraine-backed neonazis genociding the people of the Donbas; or that, for 30 years, people from Noam Chomsky to Jeffrey Sachs to Henry Kissinger warned against breaking our promise not to expand NATO eastward toward Russia. Russia is an oligarchy, never mind Ukraine’s oligarchic coup government that the US installed a decade ago. Ukraine is a democracy, never mind that it has suspended opposition parties and cancelled elections.
LemonLord ( @LemonLord@endlesstalk.org ) 10•3 months agoTime to end the war and give peace a chance.
Ahri Boy ( @ahriboy@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) 5•3 months agoYeah, giving the five bordering regions of Russia to Ukraine, including Belgorod would be the best compensation.
DavidDoesLemmy ( @DavidDoesLemmy@aussie.zone ) 7•3 months agoWhich Congress?
Christer Enfors ( @Enfors@lemm.ee ) English10•3 months agoExactly. People need to remember that this is the Internet, not their home country. We don’t know where you’re from.
grey ( @grey@discuss.tchncs.de ) 2•3 months agoWell that sucks.