- NTSync coming in Kernel 6.11 for better Wine/Proton game performance and porting.
- Wine-Wayland last 4/5 parts left to be merged before end of 2024
- Wayland HDR/Game color protocol will be finished before end of 2024
- Nvidia 555/560 will be out for a perfect no stutter Nvidia performance
- KDE/Gnome reaching stability and usability with NO FKN ADS
- VR being usable
- More Wine development and more Games being ported
- Better LibreOffice/Word compatibility
- Windows 10 coming to EOL
- Improved Linux simplicity and support
- Web-native apps (Including Msft Office and Adobe)
- .Net cross platform (in VSCode or Jetbrains Rider)
What else am I missing?
What else am I missing?
The fact that 90% of people don’t give a shit about ads, privacy or their operating system in general. They want a machine to open a browser, that’s it. If Windows comes pre-installed, they’ll use Windows.
The only realistic chance we’ve got is that MS shoots itself in the foot once more by all that Recall crap and businesses drop Windows. But that’s a long shot.
I find most people don’t know of the alternatives but they are open to change as they are unhappy with current options that they are aware of. I’ve talked with a few people that were surprisingly open to to trying Linux. They didn’t know how easy it is to use and install but jumped on the opportunity as they were unhappy with Windows.
Changing to Linux means, people…:
- need to have an understanding of operating systems, so they can think about alternatives
- need to be aware of the actual alternative
- need to be willing to learn something new
- need to be willing to leave some applications or games behind
- need to choose a Linux distribution
- need the technical ability and understanding to actually download, flash and boot from boot system, install it and setup initial, such as root password and such
These are basic and trivial stuff for us, but most normies don’t have this understanding and interest to go this far. And then it depends if they are happy and stay. Even if every PC manufacturer and distributor would offere the same PC with Windows and Linux, most would just choose Windows (probably). This is the current reality.
Such a hard agree. My wife won’t even let me install Linux, which takes out the more technical aspects of the above.
She’s just comfortable on Windows. Most people don’t want to learn something new and even fewer actually care about privacy.
Edit: Us Linux users assume that if Windows gets bad enough people will switch to Linux, when we all should face facts that normies will much sooner switch to Mac.
that normies will much sooner switch to Mac.
Rich normies.
Sure, for the mac pro line with specs that us nerds care about.
I think some of those M1 mac airs are really affordable now though. For casual use it would be a good device for a tech illiterate person.
Or a mini.
I have an M2 mini I use for iOS builds, cheap enough for me to buy and stick in the rack to use for remote builds. I got that a year ago for $600ish iirc.
Yeah man. Apple still screws people when it comes to ram and storage options of course, but the base products are actually pretty good for the money.
Mostly yes but there’s one other option that simplifies the whole thing: Chromebooks. They’re actually pretty decent for someone who doesn’t need much beyond a browser, a mail client, and a basic office suite.
Sure, they’re tied to Google with all that entails but they can be a real option for someone like a senior who relies on relatives for tech support.
I agree. Chromebooks are a viable choice for those who want a web terminal. I used one for about a year. Got the job done.
Something I’ve never checked for but…are there any linux installers that run from within windows? Shrink the windows partition, create a linux partition, populate it, install grub, and tell the user to reboot and choose linux? I think general lack of good ext4 fs support in windows might make things difficult, but you don’t actually need to do that part from within windows. There could be a second installer that’s triggered the first time they boot from grub.
I feel like a well supported installer like that would dramatically lower the barrier to entry. It could make dual booting windows a breeze for anyone who knows how to run an installer and reboot, which is what people actually want.
This sounds awesome idea. Not sure if there is a technical reason why this could not be done. On the other hand, Windows already has WSL (Windows Subsystem for Linux, is it still called like that?). All antivirus programs would probably go nuts. Windows itself is a restricted system and some things need to be done before booting into Windows. I assume if it was possible, then this would have been done before. At least I never heard about this. The best way is to have a preinstalled Linux on hardware.
Q4OS has an installer like that, but you have to change the boot order after installation, I don’t think it uses grub.
Nice, indeed it looks like it does! Wonder if that installer could be packaged and licensed in a way that more distros could use it.
… And then something happens and they want you to install Windows again.
As much as I like Linux, compared to Windows and Mac OS it’s high maintenance. Once in a while, things will bork themselves. And you need to have at least a rough understanding of what’s happening to fix it.
Also (and that’s not a Linux problem per se) people seem to think if Windows breaks, MS or they themselves are at fault, if Linux breaks, that weird nerd and his hacker stuff are at fault.
I have to disagree, at least in my experience.
Windows causes more problems, both for my mum and myself.Her only purpose of a PC is basically to open a web browser, answer some mails and plug in a USB from time to time. For her, Mint never made one single problem, except when the hard drive failed.
She really liked the “boringness” and the old Windows charme.And for me, Linux never made any big troubles in general. When I used Tumbleweed, there were a few papercuts (e.g. graphical glitches, program freezes, etc.) due to the bleeding edge, but nothing major.
And since I use Fedora Atomic, I completely forget that I use an OS in general. I never have to update anything, I can’t break my stuff, etc…
It’s the most “boring” and user friendly OS I’ve used, even more than MacOS and Windows. Only Android/ iOS are better in that regard.But I’ve never seen my OS just borking itself. If that should ever happen, I can easily roll back in a second and it will work again.
And you need to have at least a rough understanding of what’s happening to fix it.
If you can fix Windows (which made way more problems after updates for me) then fixing Linux is way easier. And if you’re an average person, then you go to a local repair shop and say “My PC broke” and they reinstall Windows for you.
Without fail, every Linux installation I had destroyed itself after a while.
Be it a full boot partition, some weird driver compatibility, etc, etc.
My Windows installations (granted, all work laptops) never destroyed themselves. Yes, some bugs here and there, but it worked well enough for home usage. You can’t discount that.
Without fail, every Linux installation I had destroyed itself after a while.
User-induced trauma, poor distros.
The fact those poor distros exist means yet another hurdle for the average user to switch to Linux
I’ve got the complete opposite to you. I’m in a household of 3 gaming desktops and 3 laptops, plus family who need help. I’ve been daily driving Linux for about a decade now and keep duel boot around just for Adobe products.
On all these machines, Linux hs been rock solid and never had issues that wasn’t user caused. Windows on the other hand drives me crazy with how much it fucks out. I have next to no control over it. It updates when it wants. I have no control over what’s updated. I hate the gods damn ads (and that’s on Windows 10) despite running de-crappifying software. I hate how many errors it has and how long it takes t troubleshoot them. I hate that if the system borks itself enough, it’s faster and less insanity inducing to just reinstall the whole os than try and fix it. I hate that Windows just gets progressively slower and laggier over time whereas my 6 year running Arch install was as fast as the day I installed it.
Businesses that already use Windows with all of the heavily integrated business-related stuff from Microsoft (AD, Exchange, SharePoint, Teams, Outlook, etc.) won’t change that just because a feature that most likely can be disabled via GPO.
Right! Sadly…😭
Business versions of Windows either won’t have recall or the domain controllers will be able to enforce a rule against it.
Then people move to Mac.
Most of the points listed here don’t matter a hoot to the average user.
True.
The only thing the average consumer will even notice is the end of support for Windows 10. However, once the prompt to upgrade to Windows 11 appears, 99% will click “yes” and forget about it. They might be a little annoyed by the changes, but that will be all.
Nobody will notice end of support for Windows 10. Why would they? Nobody noticed end of support for Windows 7, either, and it’s still up and running in many places where it really shouldn’t.
End users don’t give a crap about security updates and as long as users don’t bump into a lack of third party driver they won’t even notice a difference. And yeah, like every other time they will eventually update to the current version once more practical issues crop up. 10 to 11 isn’t even close to the harshest upgrade path MS has deployed.
However, once the prompt to upgrade to Windows 11 appears, 99% will click “yes” and
be informed that their computer does not support Win11
and forget about it.
There’s more than a few reasons why Linux can’t make the jump to holding a dominant position in the desktop market.
One is simply preinstallation. For companies (and therefore the general public) to adopt the Desktop Linux, they’d need it simply to be installed for them, with a Desktop Environment like Gnome or KDE.
Secondly is updates. As much as Linux users tout the control they have over when and how updates take place, and how much Windows users will always complain about having to update their systems, until system updates on Linux are made automatic (or at least given the option to be made automatic), there cannot be a mainstream Linux Desktop. This means updates that happen very much like Windows, no administrator/sudo password, just happens on reboot regularly.
The reason for this is mainly that the average user would never update unless forced, and then when something inevitably breaks, they are left, as always, frustrated that their computer just didn’t work as expected forever without any upkeep, understanding, or updates.
Lastly is support. And this is multifaceted. By support I mean software support by companies like Adobe. I also mean a much farther reaching swath of random devices that literally plug and play like on Windows.
As an aside, I’ll also say that since there is a move towards Wayland, there also needs to be a No Configuration Necessary way of running Nvidia on Wayland. This is less a Linux issue, and more a Nvidia one, but until pretty much any and all hardware works on Linux the way it just works on Windows, this sadly affects Linux Desktop adoption as more and more of the Linux Desktop ecosystem moves towards forcing Wayland adoption.
Finally I’ll say that the Microsoft corporation at large obviously relies mainly on Corporate Adoption of its products and services, and that the Windows Desktop is simply one part of that greater whole. Their approach to competing with Apple and their walled garden ecosystem has been to slowly but surely create their own, its just so much larger you forget there are walls. They have done this by absorbing more and more of the tech ecosystem either by acquisition, invention, or otherwise. Examples ot this include Bing and All Search Engines that Use it, the pushing of TypeScript into JavaScript Development, the predominance and proliferation of VSStudio/VSCode in modern software development, their heavy involvement with OpenAI and aggressive pushing of AI products/services, their acquisition of Github and subsequent further expansion of influence over software development and distribution, and much much more.
Despite the privacy invasion, enshittefication of the user experience, and their various other ways they have mistreated their users specifically via the direction they’ve taken Windows, Microsoft has established itself as THE Desktop, as THE Workstation, and as THE company that comes to mind when the average person mentions “computer”, and the majority of people associate computer related productivity and play with Windows.
For all the advances made to Desktop Linux, especially in recent years, it is unlikely that Linux Desktop adoption will ever proliferate to the kinds of mainstream adoption that its accolades desire. Until Linux (or at least a Linux distribution) can demonstrate what I’ve mentioned above (preinstallation, automatic/automated updates, and wide spread software/hardware support from various 3rd party vendors) along with demonstrating a work flow/user experience that is somehow both familiar to the user and also better than the experience on Windows, then the day of the Linux Desktop will never come.
This aforementioned demonstration, btw, would have to become obscenely apparent to the average every day computer user who just wants to get their work done, play a Video Game, and watch Netflix, all without having to ever even know what a terminal emulator is.
I love Linux, and I think the Linux Desktop is not only a superior user experience, but is just better in general than Windows. But the average user I’ve encountered generally hates their Computer if it doesn’t work as expected 110% of the time. Linux, and honestly computers, will never be able to do that, but the closer the Desktop (and user facing GUIs more broadly) get to creating that illusion of “it all just works all the time”, the more adoption you’ll see.
Pretty sure Ubuntu does hands off updates. And neither arch or Ubuntu required me to do any configuration to get Nvidia graphics working aside from the driver selection in the installer
On X11, Nvidia is pretty close to plug n’play (unless you install multiple kernels, but even then it isn’t so bad). Wayland has been a stuttery mess for Nvidia for a while now and there’s a long standing issue up that hopefully will be resolved in 550 release.
That said, linux desktop environment developers will likely have to adjust a large amount of environment variables (more than they probably have already) that thus far have had to be set by the User by hand. One has only to look at the Hyprland docs on setting up Nvidia to see the extent to which the bulk of the configuration is set on the User as it stands right now.
I’m on Wayland
the pushing of TypeScript into JavaScript Development,
TIL that Typescript was developed by MS. It’s “free and open-source” though, i’d say the hability for them to cripple it are minimal?
GitHub was a blow though and it’s why i recommend CodeBerg at every chance i get. They’re on mastodon: @Codeberg@Codeberg@social.anoxinon.de
I’d say Ubuntu is probably the distro closer to being the “desktop linux”, Canonical’s been trying to be like MS for years.
Yeah, I generally agree with all sentiments. TS is handy at times, but working with poorly written .d.ts types from 3rd party libs is Hell.
The MS acquisition of Github is sad imho. Using alternatives is nice. I’ll eventually get around to self hosting a Gitea or cgit instance.
Ubuntu, Mint, and PopOS are probably the closest to a mainstream Linux Desktop from what I’ve seen, and perhaps one day one of those really will take the mantle and push the Linux Desktop forward into the mainstream, but I just don’t see it. I do hope I’m wrong though.
This aforementioned demonstration, btw, would have to become obscenely apparent to the average every day computer user who just wants to get their work done, play a Video Game, and watch Netflix, all without having to ever even know what a terminal emulator is.
That sums it all up. The average user wants a PC that just works. Terminal is a big no for the average user, and while we dont get gui ways of doing everything an average user does, it will be a big barrier. Even calamares needs to be waaaaay simpler (like a “i have no idea what im doing, configure it all for me” option).
We say this every fucking year! Come on, this is getting ridiculous! Stop it! There will never be a year of the Linux desktop and if anything, this post shows why.
So much of the Linux community is utterly detached from what really matters to most users and focus on things that 80% of people won’t ever understand, care about or even use.
We focus on this and meanwhile, little quality of life features constantly get ignored when these are the real things that users will encounter and that will piss them off. They get treated as trivial. They get ignored in favor of other things.
Somebody mentioned it here. I saw it and I didn’t need them to mention it to want to say it. It’s already something that’s pissing me off. On Fedora for my Framework Laptop there is no way to adjust the scrolling speed on my trackpad which is moronically fast.
We are on the 40th release of Fedora, the 46th release of GNOME, and somehow this still isn’t baked in. I still have to go look around and use the fucking terminal to do something this basic. When some of them try Linux and will eventually push them to go back to Windows. And when users complain about this, what do we get? A bunch of elitists telling them to fuck off to go back to Windows, which I also saw as responses to this complaint about the trackpad.
Listen, Linux is an amazing project and I love it. I daily drive it. I don’t use Windows anywhere in my life. I haven’t touched OS in like two years at the very least. So many things that we are celebrating as brand new things that are finally working properly are things that already work by default on Windows and have been for years. We’re not going to convince people by mentioning that, “oh, we fixed this thing that’s been working forever on Windows.” It works on Linux now. People need more than this.
You want to know the sad truth? Here we go. We, collectively here, users of platform like Lemmy, are a vocal minority who are detached from the reality of most users. We care about ads, we care about privacy and so on, but the reality is most that people don’t. Most people won’t even notice that those things are there. For so many people, Windows is just the thing that stands between them and launching Chrome. It already works for them. There’s no reason for them to switch.
We are all way too invested in what runs on our computers and we forget that we are just us. Most people are not like us. Privacy scandals stop us from using stuff like social media and so on, but it clearly hasn’t stopped most of the world.
People heard about the shit that Meta was and is doing. Did people stop using Instagram? No, they didn’t. People know what Google is doing, how many of them switched to DuckDuckGo? A clinical moron turning the platform into a far-right haven didn’t stop most users from using Twitter.
The API bullshit didn’t stop most users from using Reddit. Sure there were protest, but I guarantee you that 99% who took part in the blackout just went back to it after. A lot of us didn’t. We left. We’re here now. But we’re still a tiny minority.
Ask a Firefox user did telling Chrome users that privacy was important ever worked? I’m sure you will get examples of it working but it’s a minority. Most people don’t give a shit and they use Chrome.
I don’t have a solution. I’m sorry, I made this long-ass comment but I don’t have much else to say. I don’t have a good solution to this problem.
Lol and we’re forgetting the biggest QOL feature of all: actually coming installed with pre built computers.
Chrome OS was the only one to ever make a dent.
Without that this will always be a “power” user OS. People just want it to work.
I think this is the only feature that matters. For a user switching away from Windows I would love to hear about the user experience between buying a system76 (or another Linux system seller) vs a Mac laptop. Complaining that Linux doesn’t work with your hardware is like complaining that the hackintosh that you built doesn’t work with your hardware.
Seriously. I think Linux users expend 10x the energy worrying about ads on Windows than actual windows users. If you’re used to seeing hundreds of ads / day on the web, why the hell would you care about an occasional onedrive popup.
Re touchpads totally agree as well, I installed fedora kde on my mom’s abandoned laptop a couple weeks ago and it was atrocious. Limited gestures, no configurability, no smooth scroll, no scroll momentum except in apps that implement it manually, scrolling speeds totally off. I managed to fix most of these, but regular people can’t be expected to.
Battery life, for another is unpredictable and quite bad. Most people I’ve talked to seem to assume performant/light = efficient when it comes to Linux. This is not the case. Once again, solutions exist, but they are not accessible to a regular person.
There one glaring issue. Most people don’t really even know what an operating system is and some of the people I talk to think Linux is a manufacture.
I literally bring up Linux to my friend when they are having trouble getting windows to work and they say I think I have a linux. They mean it’s a Lenovo but they seem pretty confused about the idea of installing a different OS on their machine. This isn’t just older people but 20 something year olds (about my age).
It’s funny to me but I try to be patient and help them with their problems anyway.
Confusing Linux with Lenovo is pretty funny.
My ex wife turned out to be a Lenovo. She and her new girlfriend seem very happy. /s
Bro - sounds like you missed an opportunity to dual boot!
I have Linux in a Lenovo… What does it mean???
Lenovo’s, especially the older Thinkpad T-series (such as the Thinkpad T440) are excellent Linux laptops, they’re durable, upgradable and offer a smooth ootb experience with Linux systems (down to open source drivers for their fingerprint readers)
So it means u prolly don gud
Is it just me or has using a brand name as a regular noun become really common? For example, Android-based devices are just referred to as “an Android”.
I honestly don’t care about dethroning windows or anything related to it. All that matters to me is that my Linux system works the way I need it to…
You say that because you don’t realize the benefits:
- Better support for Linux with any new PC hardware on day 1. This includes things like USB devices, monitors, KVMs, UPS, everything.
- Better support for all commercial software in general. More software will become available and it’ll be higher quality.
- Vendors will be forced to test all their stuff on Linux which means it’ll all become more reliable and less glitchy.
- There will be more diversity in software and distros which means widespread attacks (aka hacking, worms, viruses, etc) will have less success and smaller impacts.
- The more Linux users there are the more Linux developers will result. It’s also much easier to start learning how to code on a Linux desktop than it is in Windows.
- Better security for the entire world. Linux has a vastly superior security architecture than Windows and a vastly superior track record. The more Linux users there are, the harder it will be for malicious entities to break into their PCs which translates into a more secure world.
- It’s much easier (for experienced users) to troubleshoot and fix problems in Linux than in Windows. This will lead to support teams everywhere getting frustrated whenever they have to deal with Windows users (this is already the case for many software vendors, haha). Therefore, it makes support people happy and easy going. Who doesn’t want to reach a happy, helpful person for technical support instead of the usual defiant/adversarial support tech? 😁
- The worst sorts of hardware vendors won’t be able to get away with their usual bullshit. For example, if there were enough Linux users HP wouldn’t be offering extremely invasive 2GB printer “drivers” because their Windows customers would know enough Linux users that they’d be rightfully pissed and not depressively submissive like they are now.
- When you do have a problem it will be easier to find a solution because the likelihood that someone else already had it and posted a solution will be higher (though admittedly this factor doesn’t seem to do much for Windows currently because of how obtuse and obfuscated everything is in that OS).
There’s actually a lot more reasons but that’s probably enough for now 😁
There will be more diversity in software and distros
I wish, but I doubt it. If we get to the point where there is a mass migration from Windows to Linux, it will almost certainly be concentrated into one or maybe two big distros. Probably Ubuntu.
Today, most proprietary software vendors only support Ubuntu and RHEL. Look at AMD. The ROCm installer supports Ubuntu 22.04, RHEL 9, and SLES. That’s it. Not even modern versions of Ubuntu. And it’s extremely ornery about dependencies. Python 3.8 or 3.10 required! No 3.9! No 3.11! Trying to get it to install on any modern Debian-based distro is the ninth circle of Dependency Hell.
better security for the entire world…
The moment Linux takes over as a dominant desktop/laptop OS we’ll start seeing a metric ton of the windows hackers follow suit to attack us. We’ll end up in a situation where they’ll probably go after some random kernel bugs that nobody else.has found yet or just don’t think are critical/exploitable. Or they’ll just attack the biggest, most widely used distros, going after people using them and any derivative distro similar enough for their malicious tools to work on it.
In general though, it would be a good thing for Linux to become a lot more prominent in the desktop/laptop market for general users. Especially since I imagine thanks to Linux being open source, people would be able to stop these malicious actors from doing damage much quicker (even though I imagine the majority of normal people switching over would almost never update because they’re used to forced updates and not having to do it themselves).
Ah yes, this year is definitely the year of the Linux desktop. For real this time!
My personal definition of “the year of the Linux desktop” is when we hit a market share % that starts to convince companies to take Linux support seriously. I don’t think we’re that far off from that happening and if Microsoft keeps adding in these terrible “features” to windows, more people will move over. Is 2024 the year for that? Probably not but I wouldn’t be surprised if it happens before 2030.
A friend brought up some Ubisoft game (that I’m not that interested in) that is exclusive to their launcher. I was 90% sure this was an indication there was no hope for Linux there. I googled it and they apparently had already promised they would be strongly supporting Linux. A shitty company like Ubisoft is supporting it. I think we’re very close.
I’d be very curious to see the hours played on games by OS. The last data I saw of probable usage percent had Linux at 4%, but I’d bet a large number of Windows and Mac machines are mostly just web browser machines. I would suspect Linux users are more likely to be gamers as they’ve already shown more interest in technology.
I don’t know what percent we need to be mainstream, but we’re on a good trgectory. If we can manage to hit 10% I doubt it could be overlooked anymore. Also, every person who swaps over is one more person who’s likely to push others to swap. It’s a slippery slope. We’ll get there.
I’d bet a large number of Windows and Mac machines are mostly just web browser machines
Just getting these devices (libraries come to mind) to switch to some LTS distro would bump Linux market share quite a bit.
The actual % numbers are probably not that important. Software developers and hardware manufacturers are looking for a critical mass of users of their product. So if 20% of the world switch from Windows to Linux but they are the 20% that only use a web browser then why would the compatibility landscape change? Adobe are not going to do the hard work to support Linux just because schools and libraries switch to Linux. Even if every government mandates using Linux for government offices would Cricut suddenly support Linux?
True. I’m thinking that if we have 20% of the population using Linux at work (like you mentioned), it would still help in converting others who use more specialised software (not just a web browser)
- Windows 11 getting Copilot+ Recall
And a shit-ton of ads.
And the kitchen sink
Oh wait that’s the next KDE release
The problem is usability for non power users. As a server environment nothing beats it but man the UI on these apps have some horrendous defaults and the CLI is everywhere. KDE still can’t get rounded corners right.
What else am I missing?
Mostly just that these aren’t the things preventing people from switching.
Get pre-installed Linux hardware on storefronts at Costco, Best Buy, Walmart, etc. That’s when things will change.
Here’s the hilarious reality:
I installed Fedora Workstation on a laptop yesterday, just to check out how that’s going.
I’m probably reverting it to Windows because there is no tool to adjust the scroll speed of the touchpad.
And that’s what that takes.
Honestly, I am so tempted to ditch Linux because of minor issues like this. No autoscroll on scroll wheel, no option for mono audio, etc etc. I do not want to set up a million scripts to customise my experience, I want the options to be there by default. If MS wasn’t screwing the pooch I probably would have moved back at some point.
I highly suggest windows for both of you. If minor issues like this bother you while major issues like data collection and ad pushing dont and you dont want to participate in making linux better by submitting bug reports then linux may just not be for you.
Its very much like owning a house or a ranch. You‘re free of others and can do whatever you like. But you do have to do your own maintenance.
If you want to go back paying rent for a shoebox apartment, thats your choice.
If minor issues like this bother you while major issues like data collection and ad pushing dont
As I pointed out, I’m using it because MS is screwing the pooch with those issues.
you dont want to participate in making linux better by submitting bug reports
These are known issues, and have been around for more than a decade. They’re not bugs, they’re missing basic features. But sure, go ahead and assume stuff.
Its very much like owning a house or a ranch. You‘re free of others and can do whatever you like. But you do have to do your own maintenance.
If you want to go back paying rent for a shoebox apartment, thats your choice.
It’s probably closer to renting a apartment vs owning a shack (or it was, before said screwing of said pooch). You can upgrade it into a mansion if you want, but that’s not where you start.
As I pointed out, I’m using it because MS is screwing the pooch with those issues.
Fair enough
These are known issues, and have been around for more than a decade. They’re not bugs, they’re missing basic features.
Then make a fork and or PR. i‘m only around two years and I make the stuff I need.
But sure, go ahead and assume stuff.
As a human does since your small text can never have full information needed to know everything. For the sake of discussing things I have to either ask and widen the scope of the discussion or I assume where it seems appropriate and you correct me if I‘m wrong. Sorry if that is new to you.
It’s probably closer to renting a apartment vs owning a shack (or it was, before said screwing of said pooch). You can upgrade it into a mansion if you want, but that’s not where you start.
If thats your opinion I‘d like to own a „shack“ because in germany, where I live, the houses even need maintenance and repairs if you buy them.
A more classic example of linux users pushing others away, I could not have come up with.
“I have so-and-so issue”
“Fork the OS and fix it yourself!”
Yeah, no. I already spend 8 hours a day programming, I’d like my free time to be spent elsewhere, thanks.
I‘m a tech myself and I know this discussion from 100 times this has occured.
- someone complaining about something openly instead of using the proper channels
- someone suggesting they use the proper channels
- they denying that its an issue they can help fix but a general failing of the software/vendor (typical proprietary software-user behavior)
- person trying to help pointing out that this is not helpful behavior
- person complaining getting defensive and falling for a logical fallacy instead of seeing their mistake.
But yeah, good luck mate.
- someone complaining about something openly instead of using the proper channels
I refer you back to my original statement. I was not asking how to do something. I was grousing that basic tasks are extremely user-unfriendly to configure. I’ve fixed it on my computer. That’s not the topic under discussion.
- someone suggesting they use the proper channels
What proper channels? We’re in a post claiming it’s the YOTLD again, because OP apparently doesn’t realise it’s been claimed every year for the last couple decades. I’m posting about why that’s not gonna happen this year either.
- they denying that its an issue they can help fix but a general failing of the software/vendor (typical proprietary software-user behavior)
I could fix it. However, I have no intention of opening a PR and spending what little free time I have contributing to open source (I’ll contribute money, but not my time). Kudos to those who do write and maintain open source, but that’s not for me.
- & 5.
I think you can see how we’ve diverged into entirely different directions already.
The “make a fork” thing is part of the issue, I think. In general there’s this culture in the open source community that if you want a feature, you should implement it yourself and not expect the maintainers to implement it for you. And that’s good advice to some extent, it’s great to encourage more people to volunteer and it’s great to discourage entitlement.
But on the other hand, this is toxic because not everyone can contribute. Telling non-technical users to “make it yourself” is essentially telling them to fuck off. To use the house metaphor, people don’t usually need to design and renovate their houses on their own, because that’s not their skillset, and it’s unreasonable to expect that anyone who wants a house should become an architect.
Even among technical users, there are reasons they can’t contribute. Not everyone has time to contribute to FOSS, and that’s especially notable for non-programmers who would have to get comfortable with writing code and contributing in the first place.
I appreciate you elaborating on this. Let me try and explain this:
Imo you’re on point with the house metaphor. People dont have the skills to redesign and repair their house.
Thats why they pay people to do it. They get a carpenter to fix their floor, a painter to fresh up the outside walls, an electrician to fix that damn outlet thats acting up. Some house owners have to forgo vacations because they need repairs done this season. They also spread out repairs and live with a broken thing in between.
And the same works for software. I dont mind fixing something in your software, as long as you pay me. Part of the problem is that companies made people believe that everything can be perfect and free. Its like Odysseus going insane by the song of the mermaids. Its a trap. Real software isnt perfect.
Next point is people cant controbute:
People can always contribute. Not everyone can code but they can press the report button and try to be concise in describing the problem, they can help translating, they can help packaging if they know their way around files and much more. The issue is that its uncomfortable to do something while we are used to getting paid for most things and also are used to get perfect proprietary software.
Again, thanks for answering and have a good one.
that (and many other irritants) is why I switched to plasma. please try it before going back, it’s way better in every regard.
I may because I’m clearly an outlier and it’s a bit of an experiment now, but…
… you realize how just saying that is an absolute dealbreaker for Linux, right?
I mean, if you’re a base Windows user trying Linux for the first time, it is arcane gibberish. If you’re just trying to get a working computer it’s a major hassle. If you’re, like me, a grumpy old fart, you’re getting flashbacks of sitting in front of a Pentium-133 doing this exact exercise of flipping back and forth across environments and bumping against different frustrations on each and just can’t believe this is still the feedback you’re getting online this many decades later.
absolutely. I have a list as long as my arm of irritants that are 99% just the absence of sane defaults. I’m not saying that’s what’s deterring people from switching over, but it’s not helping either, is it?
every DE, distro, whatevs I install, I try to imagine what this looks like to a non-techie, how would a random grams deal with this… and it’s not looking good.
apple has a vertically integrated tech stack and are free to focus their sinister efforts elsewhere; they don’t have to dick around with 15 different DEs and 27 WMs, 50 teams pulling in 127 different directions, abandoned paths and duplicated efforts galore. just imagine where The Linux Desktop would be at if we had just one DE/WM and all devs would pull in the same direction…
I don’t have the answer. it’s chaos over here and out of that chaos eventually some order emerges. it’s unquestionable that shit’s way better than five years ago, let alone 10 or more… but it’s so slow and wasteful and it pains me that I see no other option.
meanwhile this (hey, try this shit out) is the best we as users can do; I know I regarded KDE/Plasma for the longest time as something clunky and un-serious and whatnot - I couldn’t have been more wrong. things that are outright deal-breakers (like the years-long refusal to implement scroll speed in Gnome) are handled beautifully over there, and then some.
Yeah, honestly given the time this has been at play I’m surprised nobody has tried to do that type of full control integration besides Google. Given how well ChromeOS and especially Android worked as platforms why hasn’t… I don’t know, Valve? Adobe? Apple, even? tried to create a major desktop PC take on Linux that does have the type of support and sensible UX you want out of the box?
It’s probably too late now that MS is hell-bent into turning Windows into that sort of platform, but there was a period of time there, probably during the Win8 debacle or the early parts of Win10 where you could have come up with a “big boy ChromeOS” take that would have gotten this done. It’s nuts that Valve only got as far as doing the basics of SteamOS and then failed to deliver on their promises of wider support before the community basically turned installing that into the same kind of nightmare every other distro is.
Yeah, honestly given the time this has been at play I’m surprised nobody has tried to do that type of full control integration besides Google. Given how well ChromeOS and especially Android worked as platforms why hasn’t… I don’t know, Valve? Adobe? Apple, even? tried to create a major desktop PC take on Linux that does have the type of support and sensible UX you want out of the box?
Well, no, that’s not applicable here. I’m suggesting a proprietary, corporate-backed desktop default in the way we have a proprietary, corporate-backed laptop reference in ChromeOS, a corporate-backed mobile reference in Android and a proprietary, corporate-backed handheld default in SteamOS.
It’s not about covering everyone’s use cases, it’s about applying commercial priorities and funding to one specific use case.
I mean, you know the Linux community craves that opportunity, because the amount of hype around SteamOS when that dropped on the Deck was insane, and despite their clear lack of interest in expanding it into a Windows alternative for other product types there’s been no pushback in those circles.
proprietary, corporate-backed desktop
But how does that differ from Fedora or Ubuntu, besides popularity?
Fedora is considering switching to Plasma by default.
https://www.phoronix.com/news/Fedora-Change-KDE-Default-PropMany big maintainers are working hard to make the experience better for the average user. Things are getting better.
As a person that also went “screw it, I’m going back to Windows 95” for the exact same reasons in a previous millenium…
…no they aren’t.
This isn’t new, this has been the way this works for decades. Sure, there have been improvements, but also plenty of steps backwards. This run at it has been a noticeably worse experience than, say, being told about Ubuntu and being surprised at it having a smooth installer for the first time. Sure, gaming then was a no-go, but with PC hardware being a much narrower path then, it was so much easier to get the hardware itself running.
And yes, it was about to be the year of Linux desktop then, too.
I run Fedora Kinoite on my work laptop and this is what the system settings look like. If GNOME can’t do that, then it indeed seems like a massive flaw.
It doesn’t, and it can’t. Also can’t do any UI scaling between 100 and 200% out of the box. There are some astounding gaps in it for how long it’s been around.
I love how delusional people here are.
Joking lol but serious that it will never happen. Windows has waaay too much of a monopoly for that to never happen.
Like wtf, am I supposed to tell my mom to use the terminal to download ms word? Oh wait sorry you can use libre office! It’s the same but… Well it looks different. And isn’t as functional.
People around here are delusional a lot of times, but to say that windows has too much of a monopoly to lose market, is too much of an exaggeration. Microsoft has been taking unpopular decisions, newer windows versions have been facing more and more resistance, macos has been growing and taking a share of the market, some governments and smaller businesses have been trying linux as a way to cut expenses, linux usability have been improving a lot, android devices have been taking more steps into taking functionalities from desktop systems and improving usability with keyboard and mouse, a lot of computers that do simple processing have been replaced by sbcs, like raspberry pis, etc.
Windows isn’t too big to fail, and it’s not impossible that we’re close to see it starting to fall. Now, on what os would become the bigger player, that’s another story.
Fun fact: My elderly mother uses linux, and without my help. Also, she never used the terminal.
Same thing here my grandparents and some other old age people which i know using linux mint.I installed it to their pc 5 years ago and up to date,it’s works fine for them before on windows it was nighmare while they were catching ads malware while browsing the net.
I agree that it’s not the year of the linux desktop, and that people who think it is are very naive, but you don’t need to tell anyone to use the terminal for anything for many distros.
Until you encounter some weird glitch that needs to be fixed using the terminal. It happens maybe once every couple of months for me, but it still happens. Even so, I’m considering switching fully after windows 10 goes EOL.
Better than a Windows 10 glitch that requires you to dig through 10 dialogs
What else am I missing?
Large scale manufacturers pre-installing Linux? Readily available multi-language support for home users? Coherent UI regardless of computer and distro underneath. Billions on lobbying money spent on politicians for favorable policy crafting? Billions spent on marketing campaigns to actually sell the idea to the masses who simply don’t care any of your points (or any technical reasons, privacy or anything else that might be top of mind of the current Linux userbase).
I’d say Linux has a good chance of capturing 5-6% of the market in the coming years if lucky (I believe we’re somewhere around 4% at the moment), unless one of the big tech monopolies decides to start throwing money into it (Like Google did with Android)
It is a good list ( from an “alternative to Windows” point of view ). In particular, you make a good case for the gaming side of things.
Unfortunately, even if that is all Linux needs, the hordes take time to arrive. The big impact of changes this year will be seen in the migration numbers 3 years from now. The biggest opportunity is probably the Windows 10 EOL and that is not until the end of next year. By then, many gamers will have Windows 11 capable hardware.
I do think that gamers and devs are the two groups likely to lead the charge on the next wave of Linux adoption. .NET dev in particular already has a lot of momentum on Linux with the transition from desktop to cloud and the primacy of Linux in container based workflows. Things are not quite there yet for .NET mobile dev on Linux. I bet most .NET devs that have left Windows are using Macs these days though. That said, that means they are already using tooling quite easily migrated to Linux including bath Rider and VS Code as you say. In the cloud, .NET must be “deployed” more to Linux than to Windows by now.
That last point is the most important I think. Windows is no longer the most important platform for Microsoft—Azure is. Microsoft is quite happy to let you use Linux on Azure. In fact, Azure pipelines and .NET itself are faster on Linux at this point. It is still “developers, developers, developers” for Microsoft but it is now more cloud than desktop. That changes the role of Windows at Microsoft.
I think it is perhaps less what we think about Windows and more about what Microsoft thinks about Windows that matters.
The other crown jewel is Office. Office 365 is a subscription. It is increasingly a “cloud” offering as well. Soon, they will not care about Windows as a delivery vehicle for Office either.
As Windows starts to matter less strategically, the question will increasingly be how to monetize the Windows user base more heavily. That is more ads, more data mining, more AI, and an increasingly crap experience. More and more, Windows Product Managers will be rewarded for their short-term gains and incremental revenue. Stewardship of the platform will move further and further into the background.
That is how Linux will win.
It won’t be this year though.