- cross-posted to:
- pcgaming@lemmy.ca
You must log in or register to comment.
I understand the frustration, but I can’t help but feel that their anger is misdirected. Do we really think video games are promoting violence?
[…] playing the game led the teenager to research and then later purchase the gun hours after his 18th birthday.
I’m getting a sense that there are other steps that could have been taken to prevent this tragedy aside from this video game that features guns.
They voted back in all the same leadership at an election not long after. Having made that decision, I find this to be less surprising than it might have been.
I remember reading about that. All I could conclude is that the voters must approve in some sense of those actions. In which case, I’m afraid your peers have spoken and clearly indicate that it’s not a priority. It’s a shame.
What about all the movies with guns? It’s much more normal to see a movie about someone getting shot or otherwise killed than see even a titty, much less any genitalia. I’d argue that many more people watch media than play games, if that’s the logic they’re going for.
Their frustration is completely misdirected also because it’s friggin’ Texas! What do you need to get a gun in that state? A pulse?
Edit: the dude was 18, how did he even get a gun? You need to be at least 21 to have one. How did he even get an semi-automatic weapon? The fuck?
You need to be 21 to purchase a handgun from a dealer.
This was not a handgun.
Question still stands: how the fuck did he get a semi-automatic gun if he wasn’t even able to get a handgun?
Where are you from, exactly?
There’s no classes of licenses like that in the US. If you are 18 and meet the minimal legal requirements, you can buy a long gun of any type in most states. (Some states are trying to move that age to 21.) That means a single shot, break action, lever action, bolt action, pump, or yes, semi-automatic. Once you hit 21, you can buy handguns. Again: that includes break action, revolvers, and normal semi-automatics.
The only real restriction in all of this is machine guns; to get those, you need to come up with the $20,000+ that a legal one will cost, and file a transfer application with the BATF, pay a $250 fee, and wait to see if your application is approved or denied. There are some states that prevent individual ownership of machine guns entirely.
Replace “videogames” with “guns” to understand the 2A argument.
I’m not sure I understand. When was the last time a video game was used to go on a killing spree?
The same argument can be used in one context and be wrong, yet used in another context and be right.
The object in the argument matters. For example, the argument that punishment reduces undesirable behavior. This could be true in criminal justice, but it’s absolutely not true when applied to early child development. It just teaches them to be scared of you if the child isn’t old enough to understand.
There might be an association between guns and violence. Is that even true for video games?
That’s not the argument though. The argument is “videogames don’t cause this problem” which is true in both cases.
That’s like saying, replace “video games” with “cars and alcohol” to understand the MADD argument.
How so?
Sorry, you can’t propose an analogy and expect others to think about it for themselves, but then when presented with a nearly identical analogy, expect others to spend time explaining it to you.
Oh I can’t ask how it’s identical?
“Drinking and driving doesn’t kill people, people kill people” oh wait, that’s senseless and they’re not identical… Maybe you responded with this instead of answering my question because you know that.
“Cars and alcohol don’t kill people people kill people” yeah that’s why it’s drinking and driving that’s illegal, not cars and/or alcohol. But you thought of that already and realized your mistake, which is why you’re dodging.
Try harder, it’ll do you some good.
No no, keep going, you’re so right. It sounds like you agree that demonstrating competency before being granted a driver’s license is useful? And you agree that revoking these licenses when they have demonstrated that they are a risk to public safety is also working out for us?
Do we really think video games are promoting violence?
No, that’s not their argument. They are saying the gun manufacturer advertised their real life gun in the video game. They don’t have an issue with video game violence, they have an issue with advertising weapons to children.
I’m getting a sense that there are other steps that could have been taken to prevent this tragedy aside from this video game that features guns.
Do you ever get the sense that it’s possible for more than 1 thing to contribute to an event?
Certainly. Hence, steps. Although, video games is probably not where I would begin if we wish to take this problem seriously. It should be part of a complete plan to address violence involving guns.
People have always blamed video games for violence, even all the way back to Columbine. This isn’t a new argument.
Those arguments were weak then and they are no better now after years of research trying to test whether video games cause violent behavior. I don’t think there’s a need to revisit the same argument — unless of course new information or context that changes things has been found.
Oh, I’m not disagreeing at all. Even with all the evidence that video games aren’t the problem, it’s a convenient scapegoat to point a finger at while ignoring those who actually need to be held accountable.
“No way to prevent this,” says only country where it happens every fucking day
I did some cursory searches to find the actual arguments and came up blank. It’s important to note this isn’t the standard “video games cause violence” lawsuit that has absolutely no merit. This is different. The summary presented in articles is that this gun manufacturer explicitly marketed their product for things like this using a sophisticated campaign. If I understand the summary correctly, it therefore hinges on both the marketing of this specific gun and its presence across the digital landscape. The parents aren’t going after shooting in games; they’re going after a company that actively markets its products on social media and in video games.
It’s novel. I’m kinda skeptical because the solution would have to limit product placement and advertisement which has a massive lobby. There’s also nothing that really says “this specific gun leads to violence” without implicitly relying on the whole “video games cause violence” which is bullshit.
This kinda happens when your part of a three trillion dollar company. Those deep pockets attract nuisance lawsuits
Video games do not promote violence according to any modern ethical research on the question.
I can’t imagine the pain of these families, and I’d want to lash out at any available target, too. They might even get lucky and have a settlement offer from Activision rather dragging everyone through a trial. But if this even makes it into a courtroom, I would bet that it will ultimately go nowhere. There’s just no credible evidence to support the claim.
There’s evidence that they’re linked to additional violent thinking, but not a sole factor in making a sane, healthy person into a killer. The former is more nuanced than simply "ban because bad correlation’ though
One thing I wish we could ban are opportunistic suits from hungry law firms that are just hoping that these companies will settle rather than fight an obviously frivolous suit. This is an insult to the civil legal system
What evidence links video games to violent thinking? I’m unaware of any.
That question aside, there’s simply no evidence that gaming impacts behavior, which as you suggest is the major interest here.
One thing I wish we could ban are opportunistic suits from hungry law firms that are just hoping that these companies will settle rather than fight an obviously frivolous suit. This is an insult to the civil legal system
Agreed on all points.
So here’s an article on a meta-analysis that covers the a positive correlation. You can also see some newer individual studies that link it to certain violent behaviors such as the treatment of firearms.
Of course, media often overblows such studies because they don’t understand what a strong or weak correlation is and what behaviors these studies are correlating against, which leads to a lot of misunderstanding. Social science may be among the most difficult of the sciences simply because it is measuring patterns with unique biases in their subjects, such as the Hawthorne effect, and extremely high variance that can be difficult to address. For example, the frequency at which and types of games people play now vs 30 years ago is radically different. This is why meta-analyses that examine results across many studies can be valuable, as it often takes repeated studies under changing methodologies and populations to get a proper idea of a social correlation.
I should also emphasize that a positive correlation doesn’t really imply games need to be banned or controlled. In fact the articles linked above mention exactly that – the real concern with a lot of studies is the influence of violent video games on children and their propensity to bully. This doesn’t necessarily imply that video games should be banned, but it can be helpful for guidance to counselors to understand how even minor factors influence social dynamics.
Every time I think we’ve moved passed this as an argument, it pops back up. They’ll blame anything but those they should be holding accountable.
They should have sued the coward police department. The rest of the world plays the same games people play in the US. I grew up playing GTA, didn’t steal or shoot anything.
Exactly. And the entire reason I like to kill stuff in video games is that I have zero desire to do it in real life.
If and only If this law suit leads to the banning of advertisements across all media, I’d be 100% for it. But that isn’t the purpose, it’s purpose is a cash grab for a law firm.
some of y’all definitely aren’t reading the article. this isn’t a “video games cause violence” thing. they are suing Activision and the gun manufacturer Daniel Defense for marketing a specific model of gun in Call of Duty, and maybe? that the Uvalde shooter used that same model of gun in the shooting. i dunno if there’s merit to the argument, but like, categorically, this isn’t the “video games cause violence” argument y’all seem to think it is. its about a gun manufacturer advertising their product in a video game.
So I did read the article, and… I’m not understanding a word you are saying. The families are suing a video game company for a gun in their video game. Also the article is not at all making the emphasis that you are making between marketing a specific game and video games writ large (the article kind of speaks to both of those at the same time and isn’t making any such distinction), so I don’t know what you are talking about. As far as the article is concerned this has everything to do with the fact that the gun was in a video game, and even Activisions statement in response was to defend themselves from the idea that their video game is a thing that pushing people to violence. So even Activision understands the lawsuit as tying their video game to violence.
I’m not saying I agree with the logic of the suit, but I literally have no idea what you think in the article separates out video games from the particular model of gun because that is just not a thing the article does at all.
I’m not understanding a word you are saying
that makes two of us, i guess? i don’t know what it is you’re trying to say i was saying. to be more clear, i’ve been seeing a lot of talk in this thread arguing against the “video games cause violence” claim, as if that was what the lawsuit was about. i don’t think the contents of the article present the families’ lawsuit as primarily concerning that particular claim. i then attempted to describe what i believe their actual claim to be.
i’ve emphasized the words i think are relevant here:
These new lawsuits, one filed in California and the other in Texas, turn attention to the marketing and sale of the rifle used by the shooter. The California suit claims that 2021’s Call of Duty: Modern Warfare featured the weapon, a Daniel Defense M4 V7, on a splash screen, and that playing the game led the teenager to research and then later purchase the gun hours after his 18th birthday.
that Call of Duty’s simulation of recognizable guns makes Activision “the most prolific and effective marketer of assault weapons in the United States.”
the fact that Activision and Meta are framing this as an extension of the “video games cause violence” thing is certainly what they’ve decided to do, but it seems to be talking past what the complaint and lawsuit are about, which is the marketing of a Daniel Defense M4 V7 in 2021’s Call of Duty: Modern Warfare.
the reason i emphasized the gun model is that that seems, to me, to be the core feature of the case the families are trying to make. not that video games cause violence, but that Activision bears responsibility for the actions of the shooter because the shooter played their game, then proceeded to kill people with the specific model of gun that was being advertised in that game. the fact that the article takes the time to reference another case where the specific naming of a gun model lead to a sizable settlement, and says this
The notion that a game maker might be held liable for irresponsibly marketing a weapon, however, seems to be a new angle.
seems to support my reading. that isn’t the same thing as saying video games make you violent, which is the claim a bunch of people in this thread seem to be shadowboxing.
i dunno, maybe there’s some ambiguity there? are you arguing that the lawsuit is about rehashing the video games make you violent claim, or what? i genuinely don’t know what you’re trying to communicate to me. i hope this clarified my stance.
Don’t you love it? Now the anti gun crowd is going to have to use Tue same arguments they pretend not to understand when defending videogames.
Next time I read about a mass killing by someone firing fully automatic digital downloads of COD in a room full of children I will come back to this thread and apologize to you.
Until then, I will consider you to be an absolute twat waffle defending the vague wording in a “living document*” that promotes profit over mass murder.
(* back in the day we were taught in Civics class that the US constitution is a living document, meaning as society changes it too shall reflect the will of the people. At some point the education system dropped Civics classes because it gave way too much information to the masses and keeps the common person ignorant & therefore keeps them in place)
I didn’t defend anything, I just pointed out the irony of “videogames don’t kill people, people kill people.”
Perfect example of false equivalence.
I’m sure someone walking outside with a videogame is just as dangerous as somebody walking around with a gun. Exactly the same thing.
They’re not saying people are killing people with videogames, and you know that, so you’re being disingenuous. You’re creating an equivalency I didn’t make and arguing with it, not me. When you do this you only look smart to stupid people.
They’re not saying people are killing people with videogames, and you know that, so you’re being disingenuous.
Forgot to log out of your alt? 😂 You people crack me up.
No, but arguably anyone driving a car is.
🤣