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 BluJay320   ( @BluJay320@lemmy.blahaj.zone )  to 196@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish · 1 year ago

Antinatalism Rule

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Antinatalism Rule

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 BluJay320   ( @BluJay320@lemmy.blahaj.zone )  to 196@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish · 1 year ago
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  •  retrieval4558   ( @retrieval4558@mander.xyz ) 
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    1 year ago

    Something that no one has discussed in this highly enlightened conversation here is the issue of consent. A person cannot consent to being born. Full stop. I don’t know of a way around that besides ignoring it.

    •  Prunebutt   ( @Prunebutt@slrpnk.net ) 
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      1 year ago

      What’s consent to a being that doesn’t exist?

      •  retrieval4558   ( @retrieval4558@mander.xyz ) 
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        1 year ago

        Nothing, unless they start existing.

        •  Prunebutt   ( @Prunebutt@slrpnk.net ) 
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          1 year ago

          So, how does the concept make any sense? Can I get consent from an angel, too?

          •  retrieval4558   ( @retrieval4558@mander.xyz ) 
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            1 year ago

            I’m not sure what your point is here

            •  Prunebutt   ( @Prunebutt@slrpnk.net ) 
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              1 year ago

              My point is that the whole premise of “consent for existing” is bogus.

              •  retrieval4558   ( @retrieval4558@mander.xyz ) 
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                1 year ago

                And how does that relate to angels?

                •  Prunebutt   ( @Prunebutt@slrpnk.net ) 
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                  1 year ago

                  They don’t exist either.

                  •  retrieval4558   ( @retrieval4558@mander.xyz ) 
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                    1 year ago

                    We agree there

      •  BluJay320   ( @BluJay320@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) OP
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        1 year ago

        When you force it into existence, literally everything

        •  Prunebutt   ( @Prunebutt@slrpnk.net ) 
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          1 year ago

          I fail to see how the mere concept makes sense right now. That’s the same flawed logic as longtermists use.

          •  retrieval4558   ( @retrieval4558@mander.xyz ) 
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            1 year ago

            If my understanding of longtermism is correct, it’s more of a function of utilitarianism. If one wants to do the most good for the most people, then it makes some amount of sense to focus on the far future where presumably there will be more people. Their consent is irrelevant, which is kind of the opposite of what I’m saying, which is that consent is relevant.

            •  Prunebutt   ( @Prunebutt@slrpnk.net ) 
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              1 year ago

              It’s the other side of the same coin. They both argue about the well-being/bad-being of hypothetical humans. It’s bogus, either way.

              •  retrieval4558   ( @retrieval4558@mander.xyz ) 
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                1 year ago

                They are not related because you have to exist to experience well-being or “bad-being”. What I’m talking about is consenting to exist.

                •  Prunebutt   ( @Prunebutt@slrpnk.net ) 
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                  1 year ago

                  Longtermists try to justify their actions by invoking potential, future generations. Those don’t exist either.

                  •  retrieval4558   ( @retrieval4558@mander.xyz ) 
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                    1 year ago

                    They’re presuming that people will exist, which is not a wild assumption

                    But that’s not a philosophy I particularly subscribe to so I don’t feel compelled to explain or defend it further.

              •  F04118F   ( @F04118F@feddit.nl ) 
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                1 year ago

                I think you make a great point. Have you read about the problems with “person-affecting views”? It’s admittedly a bit harder to grasp, but doesn’t seem less problematic to me.

                •  Prunebutt   ( @Prunebutt@slrpnk.net ) 
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                  1 year ago

                  Nope

                  •  F04118F   ( @F04118F@feddit.nl ) 
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                    1 year ago

                    Highly recommend. It’s easy to dismiss as weird bullshit initially but enlightening when you put in the effort to understand.

                    To be clear, I am no longer strongly convinced of or against person affecting views and take both seriously.

                    This is a good starting point:

                    https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/c6ZYCpq2L46AxSJNy/my-favourite-arguments-against-person-affecting-views

    •  Asafum   ( @Asafum@feddit.nl ) 
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      1 year ago

      I mean I know there’s no way to obtain that consent, but I did let my parents know that they should have just gotten the abortion since the condom ripped.

      I wasn’t planned, and I shouldn’t have been born into that family. None of them were ready or cared to be ready or even cared to be with each other as they almost immediately split after my birth.

      One thing I’ll literally NEVER understand are the women on dating sites with literal newborns… What the actual fuck?

      •  lorty   ( @lorty@lemmy.ml ) 
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        1 year ago

        How long do you think women should wait to date after giving birth?

    •  Realitätsverlust   ( @Realitaetsverlust@lemmy.zip ) 
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      1 year ago

      I’m not consenting to paying taxes. Doew that mesn dobby is free now?

      •  kibiz0r   ( @kibiz0r@midwest.social ) 
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        1 year ago

        Taxes are how currency gets its value. So if you plan to stop using taxed currencies, then sure.

        •  Realitätsverlust   ( @Realitaetsverlust@lemmy.zip ) 
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          1 year ago

          With all due respect but that might be the worst take I’ve heard this week.

          A currencies value is determined by the economy behind it. There’s a reason why countries with lots of exports have a strong currency, while countries that don’t are weaker in comparison.

          Obviously, it’s not the sole reason - economy is complex. But taxes have no role in a currencies value.

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