A bit debatable on the individual level but that’s likely what it would lead to. Some ancaps are weirdly anti-corporate though. They think somehow big powerful corporations were created by the state. Which is true in some cases but clearly not in others.
If they didn’t blatantly steal ideas from the left and twist it to support rich people, where would they get ideas? Have you stopped and considered how mentally bankrupt they are?
Kind of seems like that’s what they’re getting at but I find this linguistic deception so irritating that I can’t even tolerate the implicit suggestion here that the top dude might be some kind of anarchist.
Having “less government” eventually crosses a threshold into having “no functional macro government at all”.
What you do after that threshold is entirely open ended.
Anarchism is not owned by one political group, the ideation of what comes next is. (In leftist groups, collectivism via willful participation, focused on meeting the needs of all members of the group. In right groups, what amounts to libertarian bartering and more insular communing.)
Anarchism is about opposition to all oppression and unjust hierarchies. If you are pro-capitalism, pro-patriarchy, pro-white supremacy, or pro-nationalism, you aren’t an anarchist. Sorry.
And if you aren’t any of those things, what affinity do you have with the political right?
Are you asking me? Or being hypothetical?I’m none of those things, nor an anarchist, I’m just capable of reading the definition .
If that was directed at me, Kinda shitty you assumed that about me as i made a complete abstract statement, without showing my favor.
a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority or other controlling systems.
the organization of society on the basis of voluntary cooperation, without political institutions or hierarchical government; anarchism.
My previous comment aligns, especially with the second definition.
Many, many on the right want far less government and less of anyone telling them how to organize their communities. they absolutely want a new version of the world with small and increasingly absent governance. The fact that they are shitty doesn’t discount their desire for anarchist changes in macro governance.
Frankly, your descriptions of what you believe “true” anarchism proves my point. A right aligned person could come in and confidently describe their key points as they believe just as well.
MY core point was that it’s the transition to micro governance, free of external systemic pressure is not isolated to leftist ideals, edit though, it could be! In your post collapse world.
Chill, it’s just a rhetorical you, directed at any who identify with it. If you don’t, then that’s fine. I know nothing about your ideology.
Anarchism is unique to the left though. I’ve never met someone in the right who doesn’t subscribe to some kind of hierarchical domination of other people, usually one of multiple of the examples I gave. If they don’t, then in my view they are confused about their own ideological position.
If you destroy some hierarchies and not others, the systems newly freed from competition for dominance in society will rapidly expand and replace them. Anarchism has always been about opposition to capitalism as much as to the state. You can’t just abandon one of the core tenets and still claim to belong—although the first ancaps were never anarchists. They were capitalists who discovered a clever and dishonest way to advocate for their own dominance over society.
Just saying it was pretty leading, when I worked hard to keep my comment neutral. Clarifying if I’m being put in a box is not being triggered or whatever.
The point is after the dissolving of macro scale government, all bets are off on what’s next. Neither the left or right has ownership of the idea of “absence”
It’s no worries we cleared that up, we are just chatting about an interesting but potentially loaded topic.
I understand anarchism as it is known in leftist groups has a well defined ethos and criteria.
My point is that that the core motivation isn’t unique, others have their own interpretation. The desire to reduce macro scale government is certainly not unique to leftist groups. And those.other groups have their own well defined ideation around the ideal post transition society.
That’s all true, I just think it’s very annoying that they chose to graft themselves onto an existing political movement by taking their name when they share very little of the core ethics. It makes communication more difficult and implies an affinity that I don’t believe exists.
Having “less government” eventually crosses a threshold into having “no functional macro government at all”.
What you do after that threshold is entirely open ended.
I think that is where you leave what anarchists define as anarchism. It doesn’t end there, it’s not open ended. If you end up with some town or camp that is ruled by a leader and/or a priesthood and police force to keep law and order, it’s not anarchism. If you can own land and impose your vast property rights so others don’t have anything, you’re not anarchist.
Exactly how a voluntary collaboration of anarchists is supposed to work to avoid quickly growing small systems of power again (chiefs or warlords) I never figured out so don’t ask me. Best answer is that “because the people already overthrew the existing power structures they will have an easier time preventing future power structures”. So I think they assume the belief system is powerful enough so that once people are indoctrinated, they would reject any systems of control again. How such an indoctrination is achieved and maintained would be my next question.
Of course there are theories like anarcho-syndicalism. And I think in generally anarchism is understood as merely being of a mindset that any authority has to justify itself or be abolished, but necessary authority is not. So you’d still pay taxes for roads and schools.
more ramblings
Personally I believe that without AGI and a powerful and benevolent and incorruptable mind a la “The Culture” any ideology is just window dressing and temporary. If humanity wants someone to watch the watchers, we need to build the perfect watcher that can do that.
How is it fundamentally a left wing movement? I like lib left ideals, but fundamentally speaking, How can you have centralized economic planning as well as anarchism?
Fuck yea, animal liberation all the way. Not sure why you’re using that to defend capitalism tho. Doesn’t really feel like a good faith comment to make.
You’re right that there is a definition of anarchism that nobody will meet, just like there’s a definition of feminism or capitalism or communism that nobody will meet. Those definitions are therefore useless, but that doesn’t mean anything goes.
There’s a difference between self-styled ‘anarchists’ who name themselves after oppressive systems and consciously include oppressive tools in their proposals for change and self-styled ‘anarchists’ who name themselves after systems that can help empower anarchism and that try to include as little archism in their proposals for change as possible.
The anarchist movement isn’t a static definition, it’s a vector force pulling at present-day society. Ancaps don’t pull along that vector. Non-vegan anarchocommunists do.
No one said they are the “true enemy”. US “Libertarians” (another stolen term) are largely irrelevant and just propped up by billionaires like Peter Thiel. They are the court-jesters of the oligarchs and deserve ridicule for being so naive and not noticing it. “Natural allies” for what? In boot-licking?
Books banned, women and children forced to give birth against their will, total depredation of the environment, oligopoly, corruption, conspiracy theories, propaganda, and fascism.
Other than the book banning, that sounds like your average libertarian to me.
I’m just talking about word definitions here. If you support hierarchical dominance of some humans by others, you aren’t an anarchist by any reasonable definition.
That doesn’t mean we can’t cooperate on certain issues, though of course I’ll have to use my judgment as far as whether that collaboration does more harm than good, as I do in all cross-ideological collaboration. But our ideological differences are not very trivial so I don’t agree that we are natural allies either.
If you’re tired of having this argument just stop calling ancaps anarchists. It’s not accurate and even big papa Rothbard admitted as much in unpublished writings.
I don’t necessarily disagree, but I need clarification how capitalism is inherently hierarchical. I know that for example starting from a state where everybody has the same “capital” things tend be be distributed unequally because more capital grows at a larger rate than less capital. But this is more something that emerges from capitalism rather than an inherent property.
There is sort of a word missing for people who believe in inequality, that the weak should be ruled by the strong and might makes right, who believe in authoritarianism. I mean besides insults like bootlicker. Because ancaps would just flock to the nearest warlord / land baron.
Amazon’s Human Resources Department buys all the land around where you stand, kills you of you violate the NAP by trespassing, and then barters for your unending indentured servitude in exchange for food and water.
Anarcho-capitalism is like taking the worst parts of feudalism and chattel slavery, but with fewer human rights.
I reject the premise that right-wingers can be anarchists. I don’t care what they call themselves. Anarchism is a left-wing movement, fundamentally.
anarcho-capitalism is actually corporate fascism
A bit debatable on the individual level but that’s likely what it would lead to. Some ancaps are weirdly anti-corporate though. They think somehow big powerful corporations were created by the state. Which is true in some cases but clearly not in others.
If they didn’t blatantly steal ideas from the left and twist it to support rich people, where would they get ideas? Have you stopped and considered how mentally bankrupt they are?
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Yes, and I think that’s the joke here.
Kind of seems like that’s what they’re getting at but I find this linguistic deception so irritating that I can’t even tolerate the implicit suggestion here that the top dude might be some kind of anarchist.
Back The Blue supporters jamming to Rage against the Machine for decades then suddenly getting upset at the band.
Having “less government” eventually crosses a threshold into having “no functional macro government at all”.
What you do after that threshold is entirely open ended.
Anarchism is not owned by one political group, the ideation of what comes next is. (In leftist groups, collectivism via willful participation, focused on meeting the needs of all members of the group. In right groups, what amounts to libertarian bartering and more insular communing.)
Anarchism is about opposition to all oppression and unjust hierarchies. If you are pro-capitalism, pro-patriarchy, pro-white supremacy, or pro-nationalism, you aren’t an anarchist. Sorry.
And if you aren’t any of those things, what affinity do you have with the political right?
Are you asking me? Or being hypothetical?I’m none of those things, nor an anarchist, I’m just capable of reading the definition .
If that was directed at me, Kinda shitty you assumed that about me as i made a complete abstract statement, without showing my favor.
the organization of society on the basis of voluntary cooperation, without political institutions or hierarchical government; anarchism.
My previous comment aligns, especially with the second definition.
Many, many on the right want far less government and less of anyone telling them how to organize their communities. they absolutely want a new version of the world with small and increasingly absent governance. The fact that they are shitty doesn’t discount their desire for anarchist changes in macro governance.
Frankly, your descriptions of what you believe “true” anarchism proves my point. A right aligned person could come in and confidently describe their key points as they believe just as well.
MY core point was that it’s the transition to micro governance, free of external systemic pressure is not isolated to leftist ideals, edit though, it could be! In your post collapse world.
Chill, it’s just a rhetorical you, directed at any who identify with it. If you don’t, then that’s fine. I know nothing about your ideology.
Anarchism is unique to the left though. I’ve never met someone in the right who doesn’t subscribe to some kind of hierarchical domination of other people, usually one of multiple of the examples I gave. If they don’t, then in my view they are confused about their own ideological position.
If you destroy some hierarchies and not others, the systems newly freed from competition for dominance in society will rapidly expand and replace them. Anarchism has always been about opposition to capitalism as much as to the state. You can’t just abandon one of the core tenets and still claim to belong—although the first ancaps were never anarchists. They were capitalists who discovered a clever and dishonest way to advocate for their own dominance over society.
Just saying it was pretty leading, when I worked hard to keep my comment neutral. Clarifying if I’m being put in a box is not being triggered or whatever.
The point is after the dissolving of macro scale government, all bets are off on what’s next. Neither the left or right has ownership of the idea of “absence”
Sorry, I didn’t mean it that way.
But I think you are confused about what is meant by anarchism. We’re talking about a specific political movement, not a mere absence of government.
It’s no worries we cleared that up, we are just chatting about an interesting but potentially loaded topic.
I understand anarchism as it is known in leftist groups has a well defined ethos and criteria.
My point is that that the core motivation isn’t unique, others have their own interpretation. The desire to reduce macro scale government is certainly not unique to leftist groups. And those.other groups have their own well defined ideation around the ideal post transition society.
That’s all true, I just think it’s very annoying that they chose to graft themselves onto an existing political movement by taking their name when they share very little of the core ethics. It makes communication more difficult and implies an affinity that I don’t believe exists.
I think that is where you leave what anarchists define as anarchism. It doesn’t end there, it’s not open ended. If you end up with some town or camp that is ruled by a leader and/or a priesthood and police force to keep law and order, it’s not anarchism. If you can own land and impose your vast property rights so others don’t have anything, you’re not anarchist.
Exactly how a voluntary collaboration of anarchists is supposed to work to avoid quickly growing small systems of power again (chiefs or warlords) I never figured out so don’t ask me. Best answer is that “because the people already overthrew the existing power structures they will have an easier time preventing future power structures”. So I think they assume the belief system is powerful enough so that once people are indoctrinated, they would reject any systems of control again. How such an indoctrination is achieved and maintained would be my next question.
Of course there are theories like anarcho-syndicalism. And I think in generally anarchism is understood as merely being of a mindset that any authority has to justify itself or be abolished, but necessary authority is not. So you’d still pay taxes for roads and schools.
more ramblings
Personally I believe that without AGI and a powerful and benevolent and incorruptable mind a la “The Culture” any ideology is just window dressing and temporary. If humanity wants someone to watch the watchers, we need to build the perfect watcher that can do that.
How is it fundamentally a left wing movement? I like lib left ideals, but fundamentally speaking, How can you have centralized economic planning as well as anarchism?
Left-wing does not necessarily imply a centralized or planned economy.
What policy do you hope to see, and how will it be achieved?
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You can not be an anarchist while supporting the hierarchical system of capitalism. Full stop.
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Fuck yea, animal liberation all the way. Not sure why you’re using that to defend capitalism tho. Doesn’t really feel like a good faith comment to make.
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You’re right that there is a definition of anarchism that nobody will meet, just like there’s a definition of feminism or capitalism or communism that nobody will meet. Those definitions are therefore useless, but that doesn’t mean anything goes.
There’s a difference between self-styled ‘anarchists’ who name themselves after oppressive systems and consciously include oppressive tools in their proposals for change and self-styled ‘anarchists’ who name themselves after systems that can help empower anarchism and that try to include as little archism in their proposals for change as possible.
The anarchist movement isn’t a static definition, it’s a vector force pulling at present-day society. Ancaps don’t pull along that vector. Non-vegan anarchocommunists do.
No one said they are the “true enemy”. US “Libertarians” (another stolen term) are largely irrelevant and just propped up by billionaires like Peter Thiel. They are the court-jesters of the oligarchs and deserve ridicule for being so naive and not noticing it. “Natural allies” for what? In boot-licking?
Other than the book banning, that sounds like your average libertarian to me.
I’m just talking about word definitions here. If you support hierarchical dominance of some humans by others, you aren’t an anarchist by any reasonable definition.
That doesn’t mean we can’t cooperate on certain issues, though of course I’ll have to use my judgment as far as whether that collaboration does more harm than good, as I do in all cross-ideological collaboration. But our ideological differences are not very trivial so I don’t agree that we are natural allies either.
If you’re tired of having this argument just stop calling ancaps anarchists. It’s not accurate and even big papa Rothbard admitted as much in unpublished writings.
Have you seen any of the Mad Max movies?
What about anarcho-capitalism?
Ancaps aren’t anarchists any more than buffalo have wings. Anarchism is the rejection of hierarchy, and capitalism is inherently hierarchical.
I don’t necessarily disagree, but I need clarification how capitalism is inherently hierarchical. I know that for example starting from a state where everybody has the same “capital” things tend be be distributed unequally because more capital grows at a larger rate than less capital. But this is more something that emerges from capitalism rather than an inherent property.
Well if it naturally gravitates to inequality, l would call it an inherent property.
Ancaps aren’t really anarchists, they just coopted the word.
There is sort of a word missing for people who believe in inequality, that the weak should be ruled by the strong and might makes right, who believe in authoritarianism. I mean besides insults like bootlicker. Because ancaps would just flock to the nearest warlord / land baron.
That’s exactly what was meant.
Amazon’s Human Resources Department buys all the land around where you stand, kills you of you violate the NAP by trespassing, and then barters for your unending indentured servitude in exchange for food and water.
Anarcho-capitalism is like taking the worst parts of feudalism and chattel slavery, but with fewer human rights.