To clarify, the pictured poster Caroline Kwan is an ally, not a TERF. The TERFs referred to in the title are the ones ‘protecting a very specific idea of what a woman is’
- germanatlas ( @germanatlas@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) 80•1 month ago
Reactionaries don’t want womens sports, they want beauty pageants with extra steps; something they can fap to. That’s why they go after somewhat brolic looking women, regardless if they’re cis or trans: they no make pp hard, therefore they shouldn’t be allowed
- Elise ( @xilliah@beehaw.org ) 1•1 month ago
Once you’ve had bro-lic, you just go chro-nic
- Yambu ( @Yambu@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) English49•1 month ago
Do women want to fight Imane? Probably not.
Do I want to fight Tyson in his prime? Probably also no lol
I’m not trying to make her look like Tyson but they are both outside the norm just like 99% of top athletes.
- ShinkanTrain ( @ShinkanTrain@lemmy.ml ) English42•1 month ago
Do I want to fight Tyson in his prime? Probably also no lol
Do I want to fight Tyson right now at almost 60, also no lol
- ImplyingImplications ( @ImplyingImplications@lemmy.ca ) 25•1 month ago
Anyone can become amazing at a sport if they work hard enough at it, but the top athletes are always going to be people who worked hard and have a genetic predisposition to it. Lots of sports are dominated by people who are taller than average. Where do we draw the line on a genetic trait giving someone too much of an advantage?
- averyminya ( @averyminya@beehaw.org ) 18•1 month ago
I mean, it’s the Olympics. The best of the best. If we had a breath holding competition and that one tribe that developed extremely large lunge capacity entered, that’s fair game IMO.
- alex [they, il] ( @alex@jlai.lu ) English4•1 month ago
It’s pretty much what happens in long-distance running, and it’s seen as very positive (which it is)
- KillingTimeItself ( @KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) English10•1 month ago
it reminds me of the recent volleyball injury case that went around. Trans student spiked a volley ball into the head of another student (not exactly intentionally) and it injured them quite significantly. Naturally her first reaction was to bitch and moan about it, but at the end of the day, nobody would want to be spiked in the face with a volleyball, from a man, women, child, anybody. That shit would at the very least concuss you, and might even kill you in all honesty.
the fact that the other student was trans is probably more inconsequential than you would think.
- NaN ( @Bitrot@lemmy.sdf.org ) English6•1 month ago
So far it seems like only Italian women don’t want to fight her.
- SSJMarx ( @SSJMarx@lemm.ee ) English33•1 month ago
Imane Khelif doesn’t even have genetic differences! She’s a cis woman who happens to currently be one of the best in the world at punching!
- JovialMicrobial ( @JovialMicrobial@lemm.ee ) 13•1 month ago
I admire the hell out of her.
She didn’t let the bullshit stop her from competing to the best of her ability.Proves she’s as strong in character as she is in the ring. Keep kicking ass Imane Khelif!
- eleitl ( @eleitl@lemm.ee ) 4•1 month ago
You seem to be unaware of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disorders_of_sex_development issues, particularly 46,XY DSD in competitive female sports.
- brotkel ( @brotkel@programming.dev ) 12•1 month ago
Which doesn’t apply to Khelif in any way that anyone has been able to prove, and which she and the IOC has denied even being tested for. This was a rumor from a disgraced Russian testing firm and spread by Russian state media after Khelif beat a Russian boxer. So why are you mentioning it here?
- TheReturnOfPEB ( @TheReturnOfPEB@reddthat.com ) English22•1 month ago
Phelps needs to be investigated because I’m pretty sure he is a largely a dolphin
- Elise ( @xilliah@beehaw.org ) 21•1 month ago
- Queen HawlSera ( @HawlSera@lemm.ee ) English20•1 month ago
This whole thing de-legitimatizes any point any TERF argument ever had, is what I’d say if there was any point they had to begin with.
- KillingTimeItself ( @KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) English18•1 month ago
i think we need a normie olympics, it’d be like the paralympics, but for people randomly selected from the average population.
- Perhapsjustsniffit ( @Perhapsjustsniffit@lemmy.ca ) 19•1 month ago
My kid said just the other day. “they should have an average person do it first so we could see the difference.”
- SkaveRat ( @SkaveRat@discuss.tchncs.de ) 10•1 month ago
Now I’m thinking which one would be the funniest. Hurdles are definitely up there
- Lifter ( @Lifter@discuss.tchncs.de ) 10•1 month ago
Relevant https://m.xkcd.com/2964/
- SkaveRat ( @SkaveRat@discuss.tchncs.de ) 2•1 month ago
Oh, right! Now I know why the image in my head was so vivid. I actually saw it before
- Moah ( @Moah@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) 3•1 month ago
Diving, pole jumping, gymnastics in general
- KillingTimeItself ( @KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) English2•1 month ago
i absolutely agree with your kid, get that kid on marketing stat!
- Perhapsjustsniffit ( @Perhapsjustsniffit@lemmy.ca ) 2•1 month ago
I told her the same thing. She should pitch it for the next Olympics. She’d be 14 when that happens. Gives her four years to plan.
- JovialMicrobial ( @JovialMicrobial@lemm.ee ) 13•1 month ago
You should watch Takeshis Castle then. It’s pretty close to normie olympics.
Sometimes athletes go on, but the obstacles are so fucky even they struggle with it.
- KillingTimeItself ( @KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) English1•1 month ago
oh right, that show, i remember hearing about it at one point, what a weird show.
- Kalysta ( @Kalysta@lemm.ee ) 14•1 month ago
She almost, ALMOST has it!
Just a little bit of mental extension and she’ll realize that this is the same reason trans women should be allowed to play women’s sports as well
- brotkel ( @brotkel@programming.dev ) 21•1 month ago
I was confused because despite the title suggesting she’s a TERF, this sounds on the face of it like a pretty trans-inclusive statement.
- Randomguy ( @Randomguy@lemm.ee ) 11•1 month ago
I’m pretty sure she isn’t a TERF, Caroline is a left-wing pop culture/politics streamer.
- Todd Bonzalez ( @todd_bonzalez@lemm.ee ) 2•1 month ago
Not sure that she is. I can’t find anything that suggests that she is.
- Kalysta ( @Kalysta@lemm.ee ) 5•1 month ago
Ah, if she’s not a TERF it is pretty inclusive. The title made it sound like this person is a transphobe though and I have no idea who they are.
- halvar ( @halvar@lemm.ee ) 11•1 month ago
I personally like to descirbe myself as tolerant. Not exactly progressive, but I very much see the struggle some people live with and so I decided that not being hostile to anyone is the least that I can do in case I don’t just straight-up support some causes. I had to get this clear, because my opinion doesn’t exactly match with the one detailed in the post or at the very least I find fault in it’s reasoning.
The problem is that all the “genetic advantages” that make someone a good swimmer for example, are all unrelated traits, that are not really rare in people, it’s just that it’s quite rare for them to all be present in one person who then also goes off to be a swimmer. Testosterone on the other hand is a single hormone, exceptionally important in becoming an outstanding athlete and for that precise reason it’s considered a performance-enhancing drug. If you look at it this way it’s not that hard to see the problem.
Being more muscular certainly is an advantage. Being taller also is. Longer arms also are. Lower body-fat percentage also is. Better stamina also is. Better agility also is.
Any boxer you pick randomly should be expected to have one or more of these “genetic advantages”, but all of them, resulting from a single condition is quite a different situation. Elevated testosterone levels are a single cause for developing some of the most important traits of a dominating boxer and so someone with such an advantage can’t be considered a freak of nature in the same sense that someone like Phelps can be. There isn’t a “swimmer hormone” that magically gives you all the advantages in swimming, but there is a “fighter hormone”, that does in boxing. I personally don’t think that Khelif could be anything other than a women. I just think that her body happens to overproduce a literal PED and that’s a problem for anyone who wants to go up against her or those that want to see fights that are more or less determined by technique.
Now for solutions and as far as I see there’s only one that doesn’t involve excluding her from boxing. Simply put her and anyone with similar conditions in a weight class based on their muscle mass and not their actual body mass. Moving her one weight class up for example would at least mean that her opponents have trained with punches of similar force to her’s, something that the lack of seemed to have been a problem for her foes in Paris. She would still have an advantage in terms of speed, but she would pay the price of having less fat for impact absorption. I think that would be a win-win scenario.
Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
- NaN ( @Bitrot@lemmy.sdf.org ) English23•1 month ago
I appreciate that you are at least kind about it.
In general I don’t think she’s considered a dominating boxer. Other opponents certainly haven’t said so. Even in her last fight, her opponent had a longer reach. I think it’s kind of crazy that people are taking comments from one opponent so seriously, instead of just seeing that opponent as someone who had not properly trained.
We also have no proof of anything to do with her hormone levels or anything else for that matter. In fact, even the disgraced governing body that excluded her has stated it was not a testosterone test that they used.
- queermunist she/her ( @queermunist@lemmy.ml ) 20•1 month ago
Phelp’s unfair genetic advantage is no different! His mutation gives him advantages at pretty much all endurance sports, not just swimming, and that’s unfair. That’s a problem for anyone that wanted to go up against him. You can’t handwave this.
The Olympics is actually just a competition for which country has the most athletic mutants.
- Pandantic [none/username] ( @Pandantic@midwest.social ) English7•1 month ago
The Olympics is actually just a competition for which country has the most athletic mutants.
I’m going to hold onto that one to use later!
- snooggums ( @snooggums@midwest.social ) English18•1 month ago
Simply put her and anyone with similar conditions in a weight class based on their muscle mass and not their actual body mass.
Once you do that you will meed separate groups by height/arm length/anything else that is an advantage. Weight class already groups them in a way that avoids completely inbalanced fights based on muscle mass.
- HonkyTonkWoman ( @HonkTonkWoman@lemm.ee ) 8•1 month ago
Not to mention the lack of volume of people who would fit the bill. Caster Semenya is the only other athlete I can think of, in recent memory, that might fall into this class & she was runner.
Fully acknowledging there could be other athletes, I haven’t necessarily looked, but I’d still wager the number is pretty low when it comes to this specific issue.
- KillingTimeItself ( @KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) English7•1 month ago
i mean, yeah as far as test goes, it’s a PED, but at the end of the day, does it really matter significantly? I’m not sure.
Sometimes people have test so high it’s literally impossible to measure, there’s no real reason women can’t also experience high test either, though high test is also arguably bad.
Sure they might be physically bigger, but the hard to answer question here is if it’s any more significant than your average olympic athlete. With how prevalent trans people are (not very) and how common it would be for those trans people to be athletes (even less likely) i’m not sure it’s a huge concern or even a significant consideration.
At the end of the day, you’re already sampling for the most unusual, and weirdly built people, that’s why it’s the olympics. Excluding trans people from that seems like it might be a bit more redundant than necessary.
If it’s a real concern, proper class weighting would help, that’s a valid strategy, but another strategy is to simply have multiple medal winning categories.
- Unpigged ( @Unpigged@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) 9•1 month ago
I’m so stoked for the future of women rugby. Partially, because it’s a very inclusive sport and it inherits a lot from its lore and ethos - with only a few years left until a woman will referee a high profile test game. And partially, because I want to see the same ferocious generic selection applied to female athletes.
Anyways, give it a go - some really good footy. If you’re absolutely unaware of it, look up highlights of Portia Woodman.
- Ada ( @ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) 11•1 month ago
Inclusive? World Rugby is famously transphobic and exclusionary when it comes to women’s rugby…
- Zagorath ( @Zagorath@aussie.zone ) English8•1 month ago
Not that it’s necessarily a reflection on them today, but rugby union was also one of the last major sports to ban apartheid South Africa. Athletics banned them by '70, cricket tours were being called off from '70, soccer suspended them all the way back in '61, and they weren’t allowed in the Olympics from '64. But they were still doing official international rugby union tours as late as '84.
- Unpigged ( @Unpigged@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) 3•1 month ago
I’m not saying it’s ideal, but things do change rapidly. South Africa about to start giving female players centralized contracts, etc.
- Steak ( @Steak@lemmy.ca ) 1•1 month ago
Yeah because people get hurt in rugby. And when a man plays woman’s rugby people REALLY get hurt. People don’t like that.
- Ada ( @ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) 4•1 month ago
Your submission in “TERFs taking their gloves off for Imane Khelif” was removed for Transphobia.
- Instigate ( @Instigate@aussie.zone ) 3•1 month ago
The NRLW in Australia is an awesome comp and is growing rapidly in viewership too! It’s a great game to watch and young female athletes are finally getting some serious role models they can aspire to as well. I’m not much into rugby union being a New South Welshman but the league games are intense.
- KillingTimeItself ( @KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) English1•1 month ago
rugby is the sport predisposed to head injuries correct?
That’ll certainly make for an interesting game, regardless of who plays.
- Fish [Indiana] ( @Fish@midwest.social ) English5•1 month ago
What do you mean by “TERFs”? Caroline Kwan is a leftist, not a TERF.
That’s correct, Caroline Kwan is not a TERF. The TERFs referred to in the title are the ones ‘protecting a very specific idea of what a woman is’
- Lemminary ( @Lemminary@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) 0•1 month ago
It’s easier to be a man than it is to be a woman, sadly. :/