Linus Torvalds Speaks on the the divide between Rust and C Linux developers an the future Linux. Will things like fragmentation among the open source community hurt the Linux Kernel? We’ll listen to the Creator of Linux.
For the full key note, checkout: Keynote: Linus Torvalds in Conversation with Dirk Hohndel
The Register’s summary: Torvalds weighs in on ‘nasty’ Rust vs C for Linux debate
- kbal ( @kbal@fedia.io ) 303•3 months ago
I took notes for the benefit of anyone who doesn’t like their info in video form. My attempt to summarize what Linus says:
He enjoys the arguments, it’s nice that Rust has livened up the discussion. It shows that people care.
It’s more contentious than it should be sometimes with religious overtones reminiscent of vi versus emacs. Some like it, some don’t, and that’s okay.
Too early to see if Rust in the kernel ultimately fails or succeeds, that will take time, but he’s optimistic about it.
The kernel is not normal C. They use tools that enforce rules that are not part of the language, including memory safety infrastructure. This has been incrementally added over a long time, which is what allowed people to do it without the kind of outcry that the Rust efforts produce by trying to change things more quickly.
There aren’t many languages that can deal with system issues, so unless you want to use assembler it’s going to be C, C-like, or Rust. So probably there will be some systems other than Linux that do use Rust.
If you make your own he’s looking forward to seeing it.
- gomp ( @gomp@lemmy.ml ) 54•3 months ago
I took notes for the benefit of anyone who doesn’t like their info in video form.
I love you.
This is a great summary. Thanks!
- Rozaŭtuno ( @Rozauhtuno@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) 24•3 months ago
Good human.
- GenderNeutralBro ( @GenderNeutralBro@lemmy.sdf.org ) English23•3 months ago
So probably there will be some systems other than Linux that do use Rust
There’s one called Redox that is entirely written in Rust. Still in fairly early stages, though. https://www.redox-os.org/
- gwilikers ( @gwilikers@lemmy.ml ) 16•3 months ago
On a tangential note, what does Linus used, Vi or Emacs?
- thingsiplay ( @thingsiplay@beehaw.org ) 4•3 months ago
If we can believe random strangers in the internet, then Linus uses a self maintained lighter version of Emacs, or has. Looks like Linus is an Emacs guy.
- Vincent ( @Vincent@feddit.nl ) 15•3 months ago
Doing the lord’s work, thank you.
- JetpackJackson ( @JetpackJackson@feddit.org ) 15•3 months ago
Thank you for the summary!
- MonkderVierte ( @MonkderVierte@lemmy.ml ) 10•3 months ago
So probably there will be some systems other than Linux that do use Rust.
Isn’t there Redox OS?
Edit: yes, it’s still alive and kicking.
- corsicanguppy ( @corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca ) English7•3 months ago
vi versus emacs
You write “vi versus the world” funny.
- caseyweederman ( @caseyweederman@lemmy.ca ) 2•3 months ago
I use Micro except for when I forget to install it and can’t, at which point I use Nano
- milicent_bystandr ( @milicent_bystandr@lemm.ee ) 1•3 months ago
it’s a polite way of saying, “intelligence vs emacs”
- Psyhackological ( @Psyhackological@lemmy.ml ) 5•3 months ago
I think it can be summed up to C is more mature than Rust so we wait for Rust to shine Rust can overcome some complex things in C and vice versa
- EveryMuffinIsNowEncrypted ( @EveryMuffinIsNowEncrypted@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) English4•3 months ago
How is it that no matter what the damn topic is, Linus always seems to be the most level-headed in the room? I really admire him for that…
Edit: Lol, Linus, not Linux. Linus. xD
- Allero ( @Allero@lemmy.today ) 11•3 months ago
Linus did have emotion control issues and was not always completely rational, but he’s gone a long way towards being incredibly responsible to his child that powers the world.
Also, he long understands that Linux ain’t a hobby project, which some programmers still get to think.
- HeartyOfGlass ( @HeartyOfGlass@lemm.ee ) English3•3 months ago
Thank you for the write-up!!
- thingsiplay ( @thingsiplay@beehaw.org ) 45•3 months ago
You can’t improve and break silence without discussing and making changes. The existing maintainers won’t live forever, having Rust in the Kernel is a bet on the future. Linus wouldn’t have adopted and accepted Rust, if he wasn’t thinking its worth it. And looks like it was already worth it.
- corsicanguppy ( @corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca ) English1•3 months ago
The existing maintainers won’t live forever, having Rust in the Kernel is a bet on the future.
You’re drastically reducing your talent base by requiring membership in two groups of experts. Well done.
The comma splice gives it away, but you’re new at organizing groups and practicing set theory, aren’t you?
- thingsiplay ( @thingsiplay@beehaw.org ) 21•3 months ago
No. That does not mean they have to program in both languages. If the programmer only understand one language (which would be a shame), then they only need to program in their field. This increases the talent base, not reduces it. C programmers do not need to be a Rust expert, so what in the world are you saying there? They just need to cooperate!
- GravitySpoiled ( @GravitySpoiled@lemmy.ml ) English32•3 months ago
I don’t want to watch a video about it.
I’d like to know it, but a couple of sentences wouldn’t have hurt
- blackbrook ( @blackbrook@mander.xyz ) 19•3 months ago
FWIW, it’s a 9 min video and doesn’t contain anything earth shattering or easily summarized. Basically there is some friction between C and Rust devs, and Linus doesn’t think that it’s such a bad thing (there has be interesting discussion) and it’s way too early to call Rust in the kernel a failure.
- ReversalHatchery ( @ReversalHatchery@beehaw.org ) English5•3 months ago
1, 90 or 9 minutes, in any case it needs a speaker to be watched, and often mobile data cap when not at home.
and a fair amount of rewinds for a lot of non-native english
speakersknowers - GravitySpoiled ( @GravitySpoiled@lemmy.ml ) English3•3 months ago
Thx!
- Vincent ( @Vincent@feddit.nl ) 2•3 months ago
This summary seemed pretty good though.
- ProgrammingSocks ( @ProgrammingSocks@pawb.social ) 17•3 months ago
Rust is harder to write but infinitely safer, and equivalent in speed.
- Kairos ( @LodeMike@lemmy.today ) 19•3 months ago
It’s harder to write because it forces you to be careful.
- nous ( @nous@programming.dev ) English7•3 months ago
C is easier to get a program to compile. Rust is easier to get a program working correctly.
- Fonzie! ( @lord_ryvan@ttrpg.network ) 6•3 months ago
And because it looks like C, JavaScript, Bash and a few others all mixed up together.
I’ve heard Rust described as “Rust is what you get when you put all the good features of other programming languages together. You can’t read it, but it’s freaking fast!”
- ReversalHatchery ( @ReversalHatchery@beehaw.org ) English2•3 months ago
why does it look like bash?
- Fonzie! ( @lord_ryvan@ttrpg.network ) 1•3 months ago
Looking back on my comment, I don’t know why I was thinking of Bash. It does look a lot like JavaScript/Typescript, and C.
- mac ( @mac@lemm.ee ) 4•3 months ago
I also dont like videos for this stuff. Summarized using kagi’s universal summarizer, sharing here:
- The integration of Rust into the Linux kernel has been a contentious topic, with some long-term maintainers resisting the changes required for memory-safe Rust code.
- The debate over Rust vs. C in the Linux kernel has taken on “almost religious overtones” in certain areas, reflecting the differing design philosophies and expectations.
- Linus Torvalds sees the Rust discussion as a positive thing, as it has “livened up some of the discussions” and shows how much people care about the kernel.
- Not everyone in the kernel community understands everything about the kernel, and specialization is common - some focus on drivers, others on architectures, filesystems, etc. The same is true for Rust and C.
- Linus does not think the Rust integration is a failure, as it’s still early, and even if it were, that’s how the community learns and improves.
- The challenge is that Rust’s memory-safe architecture requires changes to the existing infrastructure, which some long-time maintainers, like the DRM subsystem people, are resistant to.
- The Linux kernel has developed a lot of its own memory safety infrastructure over time for C, which has allowed incremental changes, whereas the Rust changes are more “in your face.”
- Despite the struggles with Rust integration, Linus believes Linux is so widely used and entrenched that alternative “bottom-up grown-up from the start Rust kernels” are unlikely to displace it.
- Linus sees the embedded/IoT space as an area where alternative kernels built around different languages like Rust may emerge, but does not see Linux losing its dominance as a general-purpose OS.
- Overall, Linus views the Rust debate as a positive sign of the community’s passion and an opportunity to learn, even if the integration process is challenging.
- Arthur Besse ( @cypherpunks@lemmy.ml ) English16•3 months ago
This video is full of jarring edits which initially made me wonder if someone had cut out words or phrases to create an abbreviated version. But, then I realized there are way too many of them to have been done manually. I checked the full original video and from the few edits i manually checked it seems like it is just inconsequential pauses etc that were removed: for instance, when Linus says “the other side of that picture” in the original there is an extra “p” sound which is removed here.
Yet another irritating and unnecessary application of neural networks, I guess.
- toastal ( @toastal@lemmy.ml ) English2•3 months ago
If you believe in ADTs, limiting mutation, & a type system that goes beyond Rust’s affine types + lack of refinements (including a interleaved proof system), you could be writing kernel code in ATS which compiles to C.
- secret300 ( @secret300@lemmy.sdf.org ) 1•2 months ago
What exactly makes rust memory safe? That’s the big selling point of it right? Is the compiler just more strict?