stalkers who harassed and attacked me and my family
Wtf is wrong with these people?
Isn’t this the guy who got called out for trying to use social media brigading to force Linux kernel rust patches through? There’s a good chance those stalkers are fictional.
If you are replying with “isn’t this the guy” it means you didn’t bother to read the post, which also removes the merits of you questioning if what he is claiming is fiction or not.
But people on HN provided context and it indeed seem he was stalked and harassed, but through his VTuber persona and there was even a GDocs document with the details.
Edit: His VTuber persona is Asahi Lina
Slightly OT but I always thought Asahi Lina was a woman. TIL.
It’s never been confirmed that they are the same person, and they both operate as if they are completely separate people. Lina goes by she/her on stream as well.
which also removes the merits of you questioning if what he is claiming is fiction or not
yet you claim marcan is lina with zero proof?
entitlement and/or astro-turfing imo
Ikr
I’m not surprised by this.
The general attitude around R4L is that it’s largely unneeded and for every 1 person actively working against the project, there are 10 saying either “waiting and seeing if it works is the right decision” or “if rust is so good they should prove it.”
So as a R4L developer you’re expected by the community to fight an uphill battle with basically no support on your side.
We will likely keep having developers on that project continue to burn out and leave until the entire thing collapses unless the decision is made ahead of time to cancel the project.
Every time I read any news about Rust for Linux I leave disappointed by the entire kernel community.
I read the “thin blue line” email and it seems… reasonable and sensible? And seeing how he is so appaled by it makes me question his judgement a bit.
knowing where “thin blue line” comes from, you don’t see anything wrong with a maintainer randomly dropping it on the mailing list?
Alright, fair. I was more refering to the content of the message, not the (botched) metaphore of maintainers as a force of order.
ah, fair enough. i guess that’s kind of the thing with potential dogwhistles. if you know, you know.
https://archive.org/details/thethinbluelinecomplete
Starring Rowan Atkinson
Its simply the Police in general…
You scrolled half a wiki page to the part that fits your narrative.
The metaphor of a thin blue line is that they “the police” are not in the typical sense very large, like an army, but they do keep the order with a thin presence of rule and order. Sounds like what maintainers do in this case.
i scrolled half a wiki page to link to… facts.
That’s not where “it comes from” though. Since if it were,it wouldnt need to be half a page down.
It’s associated yes, but not in everybodies mind is that the case.
where [it] comes from
You imply it comes from:
The “thin blue line” symbol has been used by the “Blue Lives Matter” movement, which emerged in 2014
But you link to a Wikipedia article that says:
New York police commissioner Richard Enright used the phrase in 1922. In the 1950s, Los Angeles Police Chief Bill Parker often used the term in speeches, and he also lent the phrase to the department-produced television show The Thin Blue Line. Parker used the term “thin blue line” to further reinforce the role of the LAPD. As Parker explained, the thin blue line, representing the LAPD, was the barrier between law and order and social and civil anarchy.
The Oxford English Dictionary records its use in 1962 by The Sunday Times referring to police presence at an anti-nuclear demonstration. The phrase is also documented in a 1965 pamphlet by the Massachusetts government, referring to its state police force, and in even earlier police reports of the NYPD. By the early 1970s, the term had spread to police departments across the United States. Author and police officer Joseph Wambaugh helped to further popularize the phrase with his police novels throughout the 1970s and 1980s.
The term was used for the title of Errol Morris’s 1988 documentary film The Thin Blue Line about the murder of the Dallas Police officer Robert W. Wood.
I have no idea about this guy’s politics, but it’s a pretty well known phrase with a lot of different contexts.
we don’t live in the 80s though. we live in contemporary times where things have different now meanings to what they did 40 years ago. meanings that might be influenced by recent happenings. hope that helps!
I usually see “thin blue line” (and the flag) used by reactionaries, racists, and white nationalists. Especially since BLM. Don’t know what sort of politics Ts’o has, other than he’s probably not an anarchist (ACAB!), but I guess (benefit of the doubt and all) he could be some ignorant lib with a head full of copaganda, so getting out the code of conduct for racist dogwhistles might be a bit premature.
It comes from The Thin Red Line, which is about some Scottish regiment standing up to a Russian cavalry charge. Even if you don’t know that, it seems quite obviously a military metaphor, and that indicates a militaristic view of what policing should be like, veneration of the police as heroes, and total ignorance about what the police actually are and do.
You’re talking about the US police. A lot of the world have police forces that serve the people.
I’m not just talking about the US police. I’ve never been to the US, and I assure you the police is shit here too. Ts’o is American, and that “thin blue line” saying seems especially American or Anglo. I’ve never heard that over here. So I’m not sure how that’s even relevant to the discussion.
BLM and ACAB are very American centric movements/sentiments. Hence why I took your comments to be American focused.
Whilst I’ve heard the phrase “thin blue line” before, it’s never been something associated with racist overtones or subjugative ones in my experience. More that the police is a small community protecting the larger population.
As such, someone using it context of not allowing the proliferation something is reasonable, if possibly histrionic in this case.
Going to need you to cite your sources on that one. https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport/football/the-major-flaw-with-racial-charge-against-sam-kerr-that-shouldve-seen-the-case-abandoned/news-story/62e5fad93d835c9f432923375e5e833d
seems quite obviously
That’s highly subjective. Remember this is a global resource with environments different from your own.
I fail to see how anyone could interpret what can only refer to holding the line as not a heroic act and a military metaphor. And that’s how it’s used, and that’s what it means, and that’s where it comes from.
And Ts’o clearly knows this as well, since it he appropriately uses it as a metaphor for keeping chaos at bay and out of the kernel.
A thin line between chaos and order. That line is blue if it’s the police.
Tell me you are only familiar with stuff going on with the US and nowhere else without telling me.
How does this comment say anything about that?
Its literally the first thing in the wiki page. “Line” between apposing forces is the “order”. ie Mantainers in this case.
The first time I heard the phrase was from a TV show with Mr Bean when I was like 9 or 10.
As another commenter said, I think the article guy is a bit sensitive or took it the wrong way, since “the thin blue line” when talking about maintainers is very much like they are acting as defense to “outside” forces. Whether that is good or bad for Linux, is debated.
In the same way a swastika is no longer linked to an ancient peace symbol.
Linux
A few months ago (Oct 18 2024) Linus and his sidekick signing the kernel, not only admitted they were going to comply with US Stat.Dep. doctrine and remove developers (on long term good standing) on the basis of nationality and national origin of the employers, they exploded into a rant, clearly admitting to being nationalist and in distrorting history to fit their rhetoric. In greenwashing nationalism (you can say racism underlying this national hate speech) into the base of most open and free code, nationalism now is not free as in beer it is free as in “freedom”? This is as large of a difference as socialism and ethno-socialism.
The linux community … the end user … DOESN’T give a damn, only wants the latest and badest of development in his gaming machine.
Once you make a slip and slide exception you can’t prevent any more in the future. First will be “justified nationalism”, then “not so justified racism”, then “sexism”, then will be the gas chambers for anyone who forks anything away from Führera (Fedora + Führer).
If using any kernel later than 10 18 2024 I see it as the nationalist/racist fork. I expect the original to continue by developers who don’t use race/ethnicity/gender as a basis for accepting/rejecting contributors.
Today, it is practically impossible to survive being a significant Linux maintainer or cross-subsystem contributor if you’re not employed to do it by a corporation. An interviewer to the Linux dev that’s mentioned in the article: “So what did you do next to try to convince the Linux kernel devs of the need for more focus on end-users?”
I appears as if Linux is a nest that is not built with a consistent set of user-centric principles. Instead, it seems that each part of the nest is built with a specific corporation or project in mind.
Assuming I’m right that Linux is built with project-based thinking and not product-based thinking, I do wonder what a user-centric Linux or another user-centric FLOSS OS would be like, an OS that is so smoothly built that users come to think of it not as an OS for tech-savvy people, but an obvious alternative that you install immediately after getting a computer.
If Linux is indeed built with project-based thinking, then I wonder why that is. The uncharitable explanation is that someone doesn’t want Linux to have a MacOS-like smooth and gorgeous experience. If you don’t think MacOS is smooth and gorgeous, I’ll address that.
I know some people have suffered immensely with Apple products not only because Apple builds devices that can’t be repaired, but because of things simply not working. However, there are many people who love Apple. That’s the kind of passionate advocacy that I would love to see in Linux, and not just around freedom and value-based judgements. I want Linux to be thought of as the least-friction tool for professional or recreational use. I want people to think of Linux as gorgeous and usable.
Of course, we can apply Hanlon’s razor to this situation (“Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by [ignorance or lack of skill or practice].”). Managing a product is difficult. Managing a community is difficult. When the nest’s design is not built by a team constantly seeking to care about users, but instead by a bunch of users pecking into the nest until their corner is shaped the way they want, it’s not surprising to see a lack of user-centricity.
Don’t desktop environments e.g., GNOME, KDE, fit the bill here? Sure they have their problems, but they are IMO about as polished as macOS or Windows.
I agree that GNOME and KDE are gorgeous and very polished in many ways. However, I have had some problems in GNOME, Fedora, or Open Suse:
- fractional scaling is not immediately available in Fedora or OpenSuse, at least to users who don’t know how to use the terminal [Edit: Thanks, DannyBoys for pointing out that Ubuntu may have fractional scaling enabled by default and that experimental fractional scaling on GNOME can be activated, at a battery cost]
- the track-pad two-finger scrolling is painful (compared to a Mac) to me and to people who have used my laptop with Fedora or OpenSuse
- sometimes it’s hard for me to get software, especially outside of .debs. For example, in Fedora I had trouble getting Signal Desktop installed from a source that I felt comfortable with (maybe this speaks to my ignorance in how Fedora packages are set up and distributed more than the reality of insecurity, but even this is part of the issue: I couldn’t find any reassurance). To be fair, Open Suse gave me that reassurance, because I understood that YAST was somehow more directly tied to the source (I could be wrong, but that was my impression). However, YAST’s software download software is a far cry from the kind of UX that the GNOME Software app is or the Apple App Store.
Despite these problems, I do have to say that GNOME is absolutely gorgeous. It’s precisely the kind of user-centricity that I want to see in Linux.
However, the end-users aren’t the only users. There are also developers! For example, I remember listening to the developer of the Mojo language talking with Richard Feldman, and the developer said that the development of the Swift language made it clear to him that Apple is aggressively user-centric. I don’t doubt that there are many problems with Swift as with Apple products in general, but I don’t see that kind of discourse in Linux coming from the main maintainers. Instead, there seems to be a vanguard arguing for a better developer experience (such as writing kernel code in Rust), and they find loads of friction. Heck, key developers are leaving Linux!
Edit: Clarified what is strictly my interpretation.
For example, Apple has cared about their developers as customers.
Only if by “customers” you are referring to how they constantly find new ways to fuck you over.
Yup. Modern MacOS is only pleasant to use if you have absolutely no preferences on how your computing environment should work and am willing to completely accept the walled garden.
Otherwise, it’s a hellscape.
Fair enough. Now that I think about it, maybe the developer experience in Apple products are not universally lauded.
For example, I remembered Pirate Software saying that he didn’t develop for Mac because it was a pain, including having to pay Apple $100 yearly to distribute code without issues. Additionally, I remember my brother meeting a Spotify developer, and the Spotify developer said that Apple makes great hardware but lackluster software.
At the same time, it seems like Swift is not a hated language. The 2023 and 2024 Stack Overflow developer survey reports that, even though few people use Swift (~5% of developers), there’s ~60% of admiration for the language.
fuck gatekeepers. the linux kernel doesn’t deserve new, talented people bringing fresh, useful and modern approaches to the project; their time and effort is only wasted there. i know it’s not right, but part of me wishes linux rots and something better takes its place.
bitterness aside, i hope marcan gets the rest he needs. i wish him the best.
, but part of me wishes linux rots and something better takes its place.
In short, you’re for the “make a new kernel from scratch” plan. It’s okay to just say that without being hateful on the competition.
There are already several Rust Kennel From Scratch projects that are reasonably progressed. Redox is one, Asterinas is another.
The latter is I think aiming for Linux ABI compatibility.
Sima (Simona Vetter) quotes “Being toxic on the right side of an argument is still toxic, […]” while being toxic