I’m gonna get real with you folks, we’ve had way too many of these posts recently. I’ve been reflecting on this topic a lot the past few days. For me personally, I couldn’t care less about my gender identity. But just because that’s true for me, doesn’t make that true for everyone.
The beauty of the fediverse is that if you don’t like the way a particular instance or community is moderated you can simply choose another to hang out on, or create your own.
Blajah has made it pretty clear by now they will ban anyone who argues against the validity of xenogenders, in order to create a safe space for those folks. That’s fair enough imo.
Safe spaces should be respected, and Blajah’s admins/mods do not deserve abuse for creating and maintaining those spaces.
I can completely understand why Blajah users don’t want to have to constantly argue with external users about the validity of their chosen identities. Bans are one way Blajah has decided to manage that problem so that their users can experience lemmy in relative peace and safety. While it is a blunt tool and I have my reservations about preemptive bans, there are not many other options for @ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone, other than defederation from most instances. That would be a terrible outcome for the fediverse as a whole.
In order to help Blajah to maintain their safe space, I would like to propose, if @db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com agrees and community sentiment is positive:
- that we no longer accept posts about this topic in this community; and
- we also remove previous posts on this topic from the community.
That’s all folks, have at 'er.
Edit: thanks for all your feedback and comments. I think it’s clear that the vast majority of people are fed up with this topic coming up repeatedly.
Summarizing the feedback, I’d say most folks would prefer to retain previous posts for the sake of posterity, and to serve as an example of why we don’t want anymore of these posts. I’m happy to take that on board. For those folks saying I’m a PTB for intervening in this way, I’ll just remind you that I haven’t made any arbitrary mod decisions, and I’ve consulted with db0 and the community as a whole before taking any mod actions.
I think the way to move forward with this is to acknowledge that there’s a bunch of queer and straight people who have a problem with xenogenders. Personally, I think that’s a valid perspective and shouldn’t sanctioned on our instance. But for Blajah, they’ve drawn a line in the sand over this and that’s ok too. Our instance won’t be blocking anyone over their opinions on the topic, especially in this community where free discussion is necessary and encouraged. But safe spaces should be respected.
A lot of folks mentioned I should more more specific about the “no more posts about Blajah’s mod policies” rather than making it a sweeping and overly broad statement. I think that’s good feedback. I will amend this to "No more posts in this community about the validity or otherwise of neopronouns, xenogenders, and bans originating from Blajah about gatekeeping or transphobia. This is in recognition of Blajah’s safe space policy. You are of course free to discuss those topics outside of this community.
Note that this decision isn’t about ideological gatekeeping, its about reducing the workload for our own mods and admins in trying to moderate this community, and to avoid iterating over the same old topics again and again.
Blajah isn’t getting a “free pass” over YPTB posts - if you feel they are power tripping over other issues then feel free to make a post here. But if it’s a post questioning the validity of xenogenders or about Blajah bans for gatekeeping then that will no longer be allowed here. Those folks deserve a safe space on Lemmy, even if it’s not a mainstream opinion.
For those folks who feel aggrieved about being accused of “transphobia” or “gatekeeping” over their views on this topic, I completely understand just how hurtful it can be to be unfairly (imo) accused in this way. I’ve been in the same position, and I also found it difficult to deal with. I want those folks to know that our instance does not require you to support xenogenders in order to participate in our instance. However we do require that you use preferred pronouns whenever they are specified. That’s been a longstanding instance policy on dbzer0.
Thank everyone for your feedback.
db0 ( @db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) 40•13 days agoI’m OK with that but it has to be a bit more targeted specifically to blahaj’s rule about gatekeeping and neopronouns, and I would add everything drag of course.
I wouldn’t delete old posts, just lock them.
Maybe make it a temporary moratorium?
spujb ( @spujb@lemmy.cafe ) English4•12 days agoagree. seeing that the trolls the posters here are crying about have been banneed for weeks to months, a temporary moratorium is probably fine. maybe six months but im pulling that number from nowhere.EDIT: I have changed my mind about this. See https://lemmy.cafe/comment/10132150 and the preceding thread.
Draconic NEO ( @Draconic_NEO@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) 40•13 days agoI agree, this community should be a place to discuss mod abuse, not bellyache over transphobia and hate speech being censored or being banned from it. Such discourse makes this community extremely toxic and unusable to vulnerable groups, it also creates inherent bias here favoring alt-right shitheads.
I think @ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone would very much agree with this decision as well.
inv3r5ion ( @inv3r5ion@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) English6•12 days agoIt’s “bellyaching” over dissent from other queers
This shouldn’t even be a debate or question. This hateful bullshit against Blahaj just needs to stop and mods need to put their foot down and say enough is enough. Like if this kind of shit arguing against a queer friendly instance for being queer friendly is okay or permitted I don’t think that !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com should even be on our instance anymore, and our admins should just remove it.
I hope it doesn’t come to that. I hope this community can put an end to this bullshit and stop endorsing queerphobic users’ complaints.
PhilipTheBucket ( @PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat ) 18•13 days agoLike if this kind of shit arguing against a queer friendly instance for being queer friendly
Nobody is arguing against blahaj for being queer friendly. People are arguing against some of their members for being unfriendly to people, including queer people, among them LittleRatInALittleHat. That’s the only reason people are caring about this.
The type of mentality “you’re not allowed to criticize me, because I am X, and so unless you agree with me you’re being anti-X” is tempting but it is wrong. You might think dragon is a gender, or you might not, it is fine, but refusing to agree that dragon is a gender is not and has never been “transphobia” or in any way anti-queer.
OccultIconoclast ( @OccultIconoclast@reddthat.com ) English6•12 days agobut refusing to agree that dragon is a gender is not and has never been “transphobia” or in any way anti-queer.
Well I think queer people can have any gender they want, and you just have to deal with it because it’s none of your business.
Chozo ( @Chozo@fedia.io ) 13•13 days agoBeing queer-friendly doesn’t mean they’re immune to criticism. The issues people have with that instance have little to do with it being queer-friendly, and more to do with heavy-handed mod practices, and I think it’s incredibly disingenuous to suggest that that’s the reason why people are upset.
Sop ( @Sop@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) 15•12 days agoNah the core of most of these posts is whether or not it’s ok to disrespect someone for their xenogender or using neopronouns. People will come in here to say they have been banned for accidentally misgendering or just ‘sharing their opinion’ but every case I’ve seen so far, if you look into their modlog you see that they were actually being really disrespectful about it, making other people with xenogender and/or neopronouns feel unsafe. Blahaj admin has made it clear that disrespecting someones pronouns or identity is not allowed on the instance, which most blahaj users agree with. Anyone who would still like to argue about this rule is just better off on another instance.
OccultIconoclast ( @OccultIconoclast@reddthat.com ) English10•12 days agoIf I were a Blahaj user, I’d be posting about defederation from db0. The transphobia needs to end.
inv3r5ion ( @inv3r5ion@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) English7•12 days agoThey’re not queer friendly because they don’t tolerate serious dissent from queers. They’re a safe space for people who live in a fucking fantasy world and not reality.
OccultIconoclast ( @OccultIconoclast@reddthat.com ) English8•12 days agoReality is overrated. Belief is perception.
inv3r5ion ( @inv3r5ion@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) English5•12 days agoReality definitely is overrated
OccultIconoclast ( @OccultIconoclast@reddthat.com ) English8•12 days agoSo why force queer people to live in it when they say it hurts them? Sadism?
inv3r5ion ( @inv3r5ion@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) English5•12 days agoFantasy non human identities aren’t queer.
OccultIconoclast ( @OccultIconoclast@reddthat.com ) English7•12 days agoOkay, so if someone says their gender is cat, you’re saying they’re not queer. Fine, which non queer identity do they have? For argument’s sake, let’s say they prefer cat/cats pronouns and object to being he/himed or she/hered. How are they not queer? Make a specific claim please.
inv3r5ion ( @inv3r5ion@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) English6•12 days agoTrolls be trolling. I’m not giving into this sea lion nonsense.
They need mental health help, they’re not queer. Cat isn’t a gender anymore than attack helicopter is. You can’t be a cat just like you can’t be an attack helicopter. I’m not putting up with this queerphobic let’s tolerate everyone! nonsense.
Zero22xx ( @Zero22xx@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) English26•13 days agoThe way I see it, is that the rules and aim of the instance are all written out pretty fucking clearly and people on a platform dominated by longform text don’t really have an excuse for not being able to comprehend it. Like seriously, I had been using Lemmy for two days when I checked out Blåhaj, and I feel like I understood then already because it’s not hard and English is my native language.
So that said, when I see people complaining about it, I think they’re either fucking stupid, or they’re probably these ‘free speech’ people that want the right to go around insulting everyone without consequences (while doing the most epic pearl clutching the moment anyone insults them).
As far as I’m concerned, moderators and admins doing exactly what is clearly fucking written in the description and rules is not power abuse.
inv3r5ion ( @inv3r5ion@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) English5•12 days agoI was banned as a queer person for saying that the genderless pronoun “they/them” does not undermine someone’s gender and is just using English as intended.
They’re out to fucking brunch while we’re about to be genocided im america. It’s disgusting having this level of trolling run a queer space. There needs to be an alternative queer space where free speech is tolerated.
And yeah, I’m mad as hell about it and not backing down. These petulant children who run queer spaces these days put us all at risk when they protect trolling neopronouns and non human identities and kick actual queers out. For “gatekeeping”. Fuck blahaj.
spujb ( @spujb@lemmy.cafe ) English10•12 days agoI was banned as a queer person for saying that the genderless pronoun “they/them” does not undermine someone’s gender and is just using English as intended.
get your facts straight you were banned for misunderstanding a conversation SO BADLY you verbally abused another user that you actually agreed with
https://lemmy.cafe/comment/9831688
and that’s the most charitable interperetation i can give you
inv3r5ion ( @inv3r5ion@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) English2•12 days agoYeah, don’t care. Staring down a genocide in America, the pronoun police can go fuck themselves and live in their little fantasy world where dragons are people and queers who don’t play the power tripping pronoun police game are not.
Also don’t you have a life? You’re literally in every fucking drama commenting about shit that has nothing to do with you.
Maybe if I identify as an attack helicopter the blahaj mods will get the fucking point. Unlikely.
naevaTheRat ( @naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) 24•13 days agoI stopped visiting this instance because the transphobic screeds became too much for me. Someone who doesn’t ‘get’ half of young trans people but just feels being nice to people exploring themselves or ignoring them if they’re too much is easier.
Ilovethebomb ( @Ilovethebomb@lemm.ee ) 22•13 days agoI think previous posts should remain up, to preserve the discussion in that post, but I understand why you don’t want any further posts about this.
I think everyone has shared their views on the topic already.
Not Dr. Wesker ( @notwesker@lemmy.sdf.org ) English4•13 days agoI have not yet shared my view.
jadedwench [they/them] ( @jadedwench@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) English20•13 days ago- Leave the threads up, probably locked. Don’t erase history.
- I wouldn’t start on wholesale topic bans just yet. This should be an absolute last resort and this will probably do more harm than good.
- Possibly create some extra categories for titles so users can filter it out if they don’t want to hear about it. Instance name of the potential PTB? Not sure.
My suggestion for this topic right now is to get everyone together that needs to and talk/scream/yell about it in private. I think everything has been said publicly at this point and the reading comprehension has gone down the toilet. The amount of misunderstandings, blanket downvotes, pettiness, bad assumptions, baiting and finger pointing is getting ridiculous. Have your damn say and find a conclusion, even if said conclusion is ‘fuck you’ from each person.
For shit like this in the future? If it comes to it, it is far better to lock first, talk to the person, and then unlock it. We can tell each other all day to be an adult, but it isn’t that simple. There will always be some big event that floods the community at some point or another. This community practically begs for it. It will eventually be filed into PTB history.
missingno ( @missingno@fedia.io ) 18•13 days agoEverything involving this Blahaj slapfight has been BPR, and anyone continuing to rehash it over here is just BPR^2
Like, seriously, this should’ve ended the minute the obvious troll provoking everyone got banned. Nothing productive will ever come of continuing to talk about it now, all sides need to let it go.
spujb ( @spujb@lemmy.cafe ) English9•13 days agoreal af
Snot Flickerman ( @SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) English18•13 days agoAs a blahaj’r, I would deeply appreciate this.
Catoblepas ( @Catoblepas@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) 17•13 days agoI wouldn’t be against a temporary ban on posts about getting banned from LBZ over neopronouns, but my general inclination is to keep the previous posts up but locked as a wall of shame. I also understand wanting to take them down altogether and I wouldn’t be that fussed about it if they were.
Resonosity ( @Resonosity@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) English16•12 days agoI’d want the old posts kept for historical reference, but otherwise I’m fine with this.
Eugene V. Debs' Ghost ( @eugenevdebs@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) English16•13 days agoI agree in at least a memorandum or a break on this so everyone, myself included, can outside and breathe from air. Play games they enjoy. Read a good book. Listen to music.
Taking a break from the keyboard helps me when I’m upset about online stuff that doesn’t impact the real world.
inv3r5ion ( @inv3r5ion@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) English15•12 days agoI’ll die on the hill that their bullshit about pronouns and respecting nonsense and made up troll identities that make a mockery of us makes the world LESS SAFE for queer people. As a queer person who is visibly gender nonconforming and at physical risk in our current political environment. Im willing to be banned from all of lemmy over this idgaf.
Millennial queers and our elders fought like hell for acceptance so children could get their panties in a twist over being “misgendered” by strangers on the internet who don’t know them nor give a fuck what their gender is. Do these kids even touch grass? Chronically online children putting us all at risk.
Meanwhile we have real serious threats to our physical safety in America but yeah. Let’s whine and cry about being misgendered! it’s oppression!
Edit - IRL I call people what they want to be called. Online I have no idea who the fuck you are or what your gender is nor am I going to remember. And the genderless “they” is not undermining your gender you don’t get to police the English language. And that’s really what this is about. People who feel powerless grabbing on to what little power they have to police others behavior under the ironic concept of “gatekeeping.” That’s the pronoun whining in a nutshell.
As for the question at hand, lock old posts, let new ones through. Their moderation is heavy handed and not queer friendly and they deserve criticism for it. Only their kind of queer is accepted. Not people like me living in reality, staring down the beginning of a genocide and telling them to grow the fuck up.
spujb ( @spujb@lemmy.cafe ) English6•12 days agoedit: oops i posted this in the wrong thread apologize
inv3r5ion ( @inv3r5ion@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) English5•12 days agoThey’re a bunch of petulant children who care more about pronoun policing and power tripping and ironically gatekeeping than preparing for the incoming fucking genocide.
They provide a safe space for made up identities and actively harm actual queer people.
spujb ( @spujb@lemmy.cafe ) English13•12 days agohere’s a tldr of your spectacular crashout
them: “i acknowledge that memory is fallible but if you know someone and have been introduced to your pronouns you should at least do your best and it’s not very loving to default to they/them you should at least try :)
you: “you are a piss baby and are responsible for your oppression”
you: gets banned
you: “piss baby im being so oppressed also you don’t care about genocide”
inv3r5ion ( @inv3r5ion@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) English6•12 days agoYeah. That’s language policing of they/them just to get butthurt and feel oppressed. I’m not playing this game. We’re dealing with the start of a genocide in America nobody has time for this childish bullshit.
I’m dying on this hill. Fuck their feelings.
野麦さん ( @nomugisan@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) 8•12 days agoWhy do you care so deeply about a physical genocide of these people while simultaneously refusing to even respect their given culture and self-governing practices?
Perhaps it could be because you don’t actually care about queer/LGBT genocide and are implicitly okay with it so long as it doesn’t spill over onto you? Allyship ain’t a one way street, and it sounds like you’re not even an ally. Sounds like you just wanna coopt their existence as labor to protect you while simultaneously plotting against them and their culture after the threat has passed. You’re no comrade; the only reason you’re not a bigoted fascist is because you’re not übermensch. Unfuck yourself.
inv3r5ion ( @inv3r5ion@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) English4•12 days agoI’m queer, fuck you. Fuck your feelings and fuck your pronouns too. Fuck everything about you. Call me a fascist? For holding queer people accountable for their bullshit while we have a genocide approaching us? Fuck alllllll the way off. Fucking child. Waaaah my pronounssssss go complain to the fucking concentration camp guard about being misgendered in a few years!
Draconic NEO ( @Draconic_NEO@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) 11•12 days agoLet’s set the record straight, queerness and fascist gatekeeping are not mutually exclusive, people can be queer and act in horrible ways, look at transmedicalists, or worse, Blaire White. Being queer doesn’t exclude you from being a fascist if you act like one, and it doesn’t exclude you from being queerphobic either.
TexMexBazooka ( @TexMexBazooka@lemm.ee ) 13•13 days agoI’ve made my take on the whole xenogender argument clear elsewhere so I won’t rehash it here. From an administration perspective I understand your thought process.
I would say leave previous posts up, as it is a very real part of the experience of the fediverse and should remain documented. I would also find it reasonable to limit further posts on the subject.
lemonmelon ( @lemonmelon@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) English12•13 days agoProposing a very specific limit on posts referring mod/admin actions taken against users on LBZ that directly fall afoul of their instance rules regarding very specific gatekeeping might have some value. The subject has been hashed and re-hashed too fucking much. Their rules are their rules, breaking those rules on the instance is clear YDI. Breaking those rules elsewhere and having action taken against you is arguably PTB. I’m in favor of the idea of putting that on wax.
Purging previous discussion is no good, and even the proposal, coming from a community mod as it does, rubs me the wrong way. It shouldn’t, because you have just as much right to propose a change as any other community member, but it puts me on edge.
There is value in what’s been said already, even if some of it is highly disagreeable. Suggesting removal of that record for any reason invites future discussion of the same, IMO. Not everyone who will ever be a member of this community is a member now. If we’re going to consider making a rule about this whole mess, best to leave the roadmap that led us here intact.
Potential yes to a well-defined rule of specific, narrow scope. Hard, hard no to retroactive application of that rule.
Ada ( @ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) 18•13 days agoI just want to clarify. The only people getting banned for remote comments are people who knowingly and explicitly gatekeep other folks identity in response to this topic coming up. They are banned so that they don’t start appearing in blahaj communities with the very people they’re invalidating.
To me, there’s no difference. If someone’s response to this topic coming up is to double down on gatekeeping, it doesn’t make them any less harmful just because they did it outside of a blåhaj community.
inv3r5ion ( @inv3r5ion@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) English5•12 days agoWe’re about to be genocided but yeah let’s make a safe space for fantasy fucking neo pronouns and non human identities. Yeah. You really got your eye on the ball when it comes to the safety of queer people while supporting those who make a mockery of us. 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
Umbrias ( @Umbrias@beehaw.org ) 4•12 days agoPreparing for and discussing impending genocide is not mutually exclusive to respecting neopronouns, this motte-bailey doesnt make sense and you are being extremely hateful in all of these comments. you will likely say you dont care, but it matters. im not sure this expression of panic and fear is helping anyone, though the degree of fear is completely understandable and warranted.
inv3r5ion ( @inv3r5ion@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) English5•12 days agoFantasy identities aren’t queer and actively harm queer people.
lemonmelon ( @lemonmelon@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) English5•13 days agoI appreciate your willingness to respond and engage on the subject. I understand your position, and that it makes sense to you. I personally feel that there is a degree of overreach involved when action is taken based on behavior that happens outside of an instance, but I also acknowledge that defederation is a more severe version of the same action. That causes a bit of cognitive dissonance for me, which makes me wonder if I’m viewing it all wrong.
For now, I still believe that your method is beyond what I consider to be a reasonable exercise of authority. That’s not a slight on you; I have always gotten the impression that all of your actions are taken with the intent of doing what you believe is best for your instance. Our philosophies just differ somewhat when it comes to exercise of authority. I find you and db0 to be the most intellectually honest of the larger instance admins with regards to how you go about the business of adminning, for whatever that’s worth.
Thanks again for engaging, I hope everyone else sees that you do your best to be consistent to your instance values.
Ada ( @ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) 15•13 days agoI understand your position, and that it makes sense to you. I personally feel that there is a degree of overreach involved when action is taken based on behavior that happens outside of an instance
Let me challenge that. The issue isn’t where they gatekeep, it’s the fact that they do it at all. People willing to explicitly and deliberately undermine gender diverse folk when these conversations come up are a problem if our users can just stumble across them. It doesn’t matter where the user is posting, if they’re not banned, their content can and will be seen by blahaj users.
And trying to escape that shit is why so many of us have left twitter, reddit, tumblr and other centralised social media sites that just don’t give a shit about transphobia. The users here come here precisely because that shit is stomped out when it’s found.
Giving people a free pass because they post outside of blahaj communities just makes the overall experience similar to a mini reddit or twitter or facebook. Individual users have to each encounter the bigot, and then block them. Each of them exposed to the bigotry first.
And I appreciate that some queer folk want that experience. And that’s the power of federation. They can be on an instance that doesn’t react the way blahaj does. But many folk don’t want to see that shit at all. They don’t want to stumble across gatekeepers and bigots and people willing to actively deny them their own identity. And that’s what blocking folk at the instance level does. They don’t need to see the shit first before they can block it. Much of it is gone before it ever crosses folks feeds.
There is no power tripping in this approach. It is a very considered and deliberate approach that lets us avoid defederation of whole instances. Folk who don’t want that experience are welcome to host their user accounts on other instances, whilst still joining in with our communities. Or host accounts on our instance and other instances like many folk do.
There is no plan to control what people see here. Just an approach that gives a vulnerable community the option of a relatively bigotry free feed.
Thanks again for engaging
Right back at you :)