Asking after the privacy debacle and manifest. I’m not keeping up closely, but iirc Firefox is the browser recommended because of Ublock. After the privacy data issue I’ve noticed broken trust from Firefox users, recommendations in favor of switching browsers, and predictions saying Firefox is going downhill fast and that their forks won’t be maintained for much longer.
So I’m here asking the seasoned sailors’ thoughts, aye. Is this just a storm passing by or are you really considering jumping ship?
It’s mostly overblown. You can watch here or read here. The internet is overreacting again, but Mozilla has done fuck all to grasp why just yoinking understandable language and expecting people to understand legalese and draw lines to their Privacy Policy is making people upset or confused.
Imo, people jumping ship is justified, because a company that makes $37M just on investments should do better about being vocal and prescient champions of privacy. Even if their actual privacy policy is the same as it was a year ago, their failure to communicate with their supporters in a way they can understand should have consequences.
It may be overblown but I am seriously tired of the way Mozilla is being run. The CEO has a $7 million salary. Big red flags always appear each time they increase the salary also. May be a bit hyperbolic but that’s why I’m just using another fork after 20 years
Yup. I’ve been using Firefox for 16 years and I just switched to LibreWolf the other day.
I’ve been using Netscape/Firefox for almost 20+ years. Donated a good chunk of money.
I went to Waterfox
Yeah, and while I don’t have any technical qualms about the direction of Mozilla with regard to Firefox, I’m personally switching for peace of mind and because of the aforementioned inability to communicate well. I don’t like working with or supporting people that can’t just say what they mean. I mean, how hard would it have been to have a human-readable version for stupid people like me and have a legalese version for the lawyers?
Regardless, as people make decisions, they deserve to be informed. It would be stupid to decide to leave Firefox if all you knew was the uninformed outrage of the internet.
That’s fair. Personally I should have called it quits when they started including pocket in the browser, but better late than never.
They’re red flag, but even if their stayed purpose is correct at the moment, it sets the stage. All it takes now is a want to sell the data and there’s nothing to slow them down or tell us. Nothing to make them keep the setting to not share telemetry. A little baked in ai, some hooks to monitor …
Jumping ship to a fork is our only recourse. It’s that or ride it out and see if the gun is loaded.
I still recommend it with a little asterisk:
Disable a bunch of shit in it or download a privacy focused fork of it (like Librewolf)
That asterisk is a problem though, having to go through and make it secure is an issue. What if you miss a setting? What if you misunderstand a setting? None of it is particularly upfront and easy. It doesn’t ask you when you first install it to set this stuff up, it encourages you to just get stuck in and start using it straight away.
It’s not too complicated for a nerd whose hobby is computers or someone who has studied computers, but for the layperson it’s too much.
That’s why Librewolf is so good. It’s secure by default, with all the settings toggled to privacy and you can ease that off if you wish, for convenience or whatever.
Firefox essentially can’t seem to decide if they want to be FOSS or capitalist, that’s an issue.
And based on the behavior of other shitty applications and devices what if an update silently changes one of those settings back to a problematic state? If they aren’t there to begin with I don’t have to worry as much
To be fair Mozilla doesn’t have precedent for this behavior but they also didn’t have precedent for this whole nonsense that started this drama a month ago. Things change
It’s not too complicated for a nerd whose hobby is computers or someone who has studied computers, but for the layperson it’s too much.
I’m not sure I buy this argument when there are videos visually walking you through every single step involved in hardening Firefox. Is that still too complex for your elderly parents or grandparents? Maybe. Is it too complex for Millenials and younger generations? Definitely not. The core problem here is just laziness. People are not willing to give up 10 minutes of their day to setup their browser for years of future use because “I don’t have time for that”.
The problem is not laziness, that’s what a nerd whose hobby is computers would do. The average person is not searching for videos to learn how to toggle the settings of their web browser, ffs. Firefox should be secure by default.
In that case your entire argument for LibreWolf is a complete waste of time, because this theoretical user you’re referring to also wouldn’t bother to download an unknown niche privacy browser. LibreWolf is essentially just hardened Firefox for people who are too lazy to do it themselves. The crossover between completely tech illiterate but also privacy-focused is an insanely small market.
Ah, I see, you’re a contrarian who just wants an argument. That’s not really my bag so this will be my last message.
Yes, the likelihood of the average person downloading Librewolf is slim. Using or not using Librewolf doesn’t make someone lazy. Not reading and toggling every setting in Firefox doesn’t make someone lazy either.
You’ve just explained that to make Firefox secure you need to watch some video of someone that you hope knows what they’re talking about. What if they miss something? What if they’re talking shit? I know, shocking, people lying on the internet, but it happens.
Firefox is a big name browser used by many people of varying backgrounds and technical ability. It should be secure by default. It is not. Librewolf I recommended to anyone reading this thread, which is probably someone tech savvy enough to try a different browser. But not all people are that tech savvy.
The root issue is Firefox not being secure by default. If there was no profit motive for Mozilla it likely would be.
You’ve just explained that to make Firefox secure you need to watch some video of someone that you hope knows what they’re talking about.
No actually, I didn’t. I suggested that anyone who is not confident/literate enough to work this out for themselves through self-research online can access extremely beginner-friendly guides on YouTube that step-by-step walk them through the setup. Everyone knows how to use YouTube, please don’t insult my intelligence by implying it’s some kind of semi-mythical resource known only to the the biggest “nerds”.
You’re talking about security, but really, none of the privacy questions are about technical security of the product.
“What if you miss a setting?” Then they’ll give you article recommendations or send your search query to the search engine you’re targeting in the first place. They’re really a long way from what you can call a security issue, or sharing personal data with random third parties or data brokers.
if they want to be FOSS or capitalist
I really don’t see any basis for this take. It’s not about picking one of two extremes, and the most extreme niches in those.
They create FOSS, and look for privacy respecting partnerships and investment so they can keep it going.
They added ToS because they’re integrating services, like their synced/backed up browser data and other respectful integration.
That’s all a long way from malice, or significant problematic behavior. And you still have more choice than on the other biggest alternatives.
I don’t think it is the best we could have, I would like it a bit different too, but the way you make it out to be is way overblown if not wrong.
and predictions saying Firefox is going downhill fast and that their forks won’t be maintained for much longer.
Possibly true, but abandoning ship is only bringing us closer to that timeline. People seem to be completely ignorant/delusional about how much work these forks will require to maintain if Mozilla’s full time employees stop working on Firefox. If you have a practical reason to use another fork (like maybe a feature Firefox doesn’t have) then I totally understand using that instead, but if you are simply making some kind of ethical protest change like all the new LibreWolf users who are so loudly virtue signalling at the moment then you need to think seriously about whether this course of action will ultimately end up hurting your ideals. Mozilla definitely has a big communication problem and I understand the desire to distance oneself from an organisation that repeatedly disrespects its supporters and never learns from its mistakes, as it is very fatiguing to endure their constant failures and the massive fall-outs from them, but ultimately I feel like switching away from Firefox is still an emotional decision rather than a rational one.
If Linux can be developed, then a public fork run the same way for browser can too. It’s possible just no interest yet.
A huge chunk of Linux development is subsidized by the hundreds of corporations which depend on it and pay developers to maintain things. There is no corporate interest in developing and/or maintaining an alternative browser engine when chromium already exists and dominates the market.
Yea I thought of that and have no real answer. But should that be solved, without advertising income, it would change everything
It would be amazing of course, and my entire attitude towards Firefox would change overnight if we had that kind of guaranteed security. At the moment I just look at it as the best least-worst option for the short to medium term future. I recently learned about Ladybird but that is still a fair way off, so for now my priority is to continue supporting Firefox and trying to avoid a future where Google has theoretical control over everything.
What other problems has Firefox had? Everything I search sends me to this recent controversy
One of the more recent examples from last year was Mozilla’s announcement of PPA (Privacy-Preserving Attribution). Essentially the organisation is trying to create a new system for click-based advertising where an advertiser can be notified that you clicked on their ad, helping them and the websites which host their ads, without compromising your personal privacy. The way it has historically worked is you click on an ad and give away a ton of your personal data, or you straight up block all these ads and their trackers which makes a lot of the web unsustainable (because it is funded by advertising). Anyway, like with this latest controversy a lot of people didn’t bother to read any of Mozilla’s statements and instead based their entire opinion off clickbait headlines like ‘Firefox’s New ‘Privacy’ Feature Actually Gives Your Data to Advertisers’ which made PPA sound like a reduction of consumer privacy, which it isn’t. And again, like this current controversy, you also had a lot of privacy activists who do not live in reality claiming that anything other than a 100$ rejection of all advertising online equaled 100% complicity and that Mozilla had sold out on one of its core principles.
I switched to https://librewolf.net/ on Desktop and https://gitlab.com/ironfox-oss/IronFox on Android.
Using this as an opportunity to promote the LibreWolf community on Lemmy: !librewolf@lemmy.ml as well as their new Mastodon account: @librewolf@chaos.social
I’m not affiliated with them btw
I’ve been trying ironfox but it crashes when i tap “customize homepage”
have you experienced this?
Me too! I’m using graphene, are you?
Is Vanadium not as ideal compared to Ironfox? I’m new to GOS
According to the devs vanadium is preferred for security, something about Firefox not having comparable sand boxing (?). Not sure, they wrote in length about the reasoning but at a certain point my eyes started glazing over.
I’ve been using Firefox for a long time on desktop and mobile, so when I switched to graphene I just kept with it.
I may try to switch over to vanadium though seeing as I’m already in “switching” mode.
I tried Vanadium when the install was fresh. The adblocking is just not that good… For example, on one of the sites it blocked the ads, but left out the giant HTML elements they used to be in.
If you use android, GOS or not, you are using chromium webview anyhow. So using a Firefox browser is just adding on. There is no way around that issue until a proper non chromium WebView is available (gecko is not). But before that happens we will more likely have decent linuxphones instead of android. Vanadium is way more secure than any other browser , only competition would be bromite, also chromium based. Firefox on mobile is light-years behind vanadium security wise, no excuse for not sandboxing. https://grapheneos.org/usage#web-browsing
yeah, on graphene.
hmm can’t find mention of a bug for this combination. barely even the two mentioned in the same webpage.
I’m also on GrapheneOS running IronFox and customizing the homepage works fine for me.
maybe it’s caused by graphene+ironfox+some other setting or other app
Iron fox was updated over night for me and now no more crashing.
I just tried now for the first time and no it doesn’t crash when I press “customize homepage”.
Same, I’m done with Firefox / Mozilla…
Librewolf, Waterfox, Floorp seem like viable options.Let me add FireDragon, a Floorp fork with librewolf and other changes.
I’m skeptical about Ladybird, that’s why I have such high hopes for Servo
I doubt that would be the case for Ladybird if the devs keep being how they are.
Can we stop acting like he raised a Nazi salute or something? Denying a PR that only changes minor stuff like pronouns by a not known contributor is well within the rights of a maintainer. Just because he did not communicate it well doesn’t make him or the project transphob
It’s way less egregious than the Brave co-founder making donations in support anti-gay marriage amendments, and even that has been massively overblown (the real reasons to avoid Brave are a) Chromium, b) shady crypto stuff and c) its financial incentives as a for-profit company with investor backing to compromise on its claimed ethical principles). I’m getting so sick of these purity tests on completely irrelevant and unrelated issues standing in the way of genuine alternatives to big tech. People are so eager to let perfect be the enemy of good.
For real. People can’t stop sucking Metas dick, despite them facilitating actual genocides, eroding our society and using your socil life as a means of profit, but god forbid the maintainer of a project is not nice enough
Can you link to more info on this
It stems back to a PR from the SerenityOS project where someone changed a “he” to a “they” in the documentation and the PR was declined for “personal politics”
Here’s an article about it: https://hyperborea.org/reviews/software/ladybird-inclusivity/
It does leave out this response by Kling on Twitter:
as well as disabling anti-freedom features like DRM
Do they just try to remove DRM from media as it comes down, or can you not watch any DRM media at all on it?
They disable it by default, because it requires the execution of proprietary code, but you can reenable it.
well Firefox may enshittify, it’s still the best option imo, certainly better than chrome or anything chrome based. even better if you use a privacy focused fork like librewolf.
there are other options out there, you can look into qt browsers, those were the basis for webkit browsers. hopefully soon things like servo/verso become more useable.
The UX of Librewolf sucks ass though. Want to change this setting? Well you can’t, too bad.
How the UX of librewolf is different from the UX of Firefox?
It doesn’t suck, it’s just not intended for casual users, which is why I chuckle when I see it recommended. That and Mullvad browser. I’d pretty much just recommend TOR over those, if you’re really going for strict privacy.
For something that strikes a good balance, I use Zen.
I’ve never heard of qt browsers, or servo/verso. I’ll give it a look, seems like I have a few rabbitholes to explore
Servo is an experimental browser engine developed by Mozilla Research using Rust to enhance performance, safety, and parallel processing in modern web rendering. The project showcased features like a concurrent layout system and asynchronous JavaScript execution.
Around 2017, Mozilla shifted focus to other projects and laid off several developers, leading to the gradual abandonment of Servo. However, a dedicated community later formed the Servo 501©(3) nonprofit to continue developing Servo’s technology and ideas.
Verso is an experimental browser built on top of the Servo browser engine. Currently, both softwares are experimental and pre-alpha developer software at best.
IIRC some parts of that project were integrated into Firefox rendering engine. Was it layouting or something?
This included the Quantum project, when portions of Servo were incorporated into the Gecko engine of Firefox.
Yes, some parts of the project were integrated into Gecko. But the project itself was abandoned. The original goal was to replace Gecko, not to patch some parts of it.
Sucks they’re not close to as secure as chromium based browsers. Where’s my privacy and security first browser ☹️ Vandium is the only thing close to that. Can’t wait for desktop version.
Firefox is more private than chrome, chrome had more security updates, but Firefox is not far behind by any means.
As @erotador@lemmy.blahaj.zone said, default Firefox is still more private than Chrome. Also, if you want security (and more privacy) on top of that, you should look into LibreWolf. I’ve been using it for a few years now and it’s fantastic!
I don’t know if it is due to some sort of baggage from using the Mozilla Sync service or what, but librewolf without Mozilla Sync is faster for use than Mozilla Firefox is for some reason.
I only swapped over a few days ago, but the speed up was big enough for it to be apparent to me.
Just not what I’ve read from security engineers or other sources like GrapheneOS devs. A lot of the flaws on mobile also apply to desktop. Just turns out engineering man power is a huge deal for secure browsers.
What you read is true, and also total nonsense.
There is not too much point in discussing privacy and security without a threat model.
So once you put your threat model into focus, you can discuss how to mitigate those threats and pick the right browser for you.
I mean yeah. I’m not a fan of the changes but there’s no way in hell anything Chromium based will fare any better… do they even have uBlock still???
Probably turn off the telemetry, try a fork like LibreWolf or maybe the Arkenfox user.js if you’d rather stay close to upstream.
I prefer betterfox because it can give you up to 30% more performance
I mean Chromium is an open source project, developers don’t have to do whatever Google demands.
I know Brave still supports it alongside their own ad-blocker, but apparently the CEO is a dick so people don’t want to use it for that reason.
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The whole firefox controversy was overblown. Hardened firefox is still the way to go.
i wasn’t as plussed as everyone else over it, though i am concerned. i still donate to mozilla as, ultimately, i believe they’re still good for those who champion an ethical, open, and not for profit internet.
i have switched to librefox, though, just because i like their developers and the fact that they’ve embraced mastodon and the fediverse. i also have firefox and nightly (though i use fennec on android because it comes through f droid)
Is Fennec trustable? They had that one vulnerability incident I can’t name and that’s when I first heard about them.
I recommend IronFox instead
I use it, but I have some problems with it. I made a post about it.
it’s basically just the latest firefox without the proprietary stuff, google services, and telemetry. i’ve never had an issue :)
The “vulnerability” was only that F-Droid wasn’t keeping up with their builds, leaving everyone who installed it from F-Droid out-of-date, during a period of known Firefox bugs being exploited.
All those people leaving Mozilla, I can only assume only read headlines and not the actual articles because they’re just blowing a nothing burger out of proportion.
All that we’ve ever asked from Mozilla is three things:
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Focus on the performance of your browser so that it is not a hog.
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Upkeep privacy
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Keep it secure
Out of all of those things, Mozilla fails at all except maybe the last thing. We didn’t ask for AI implementation. We didn’t ask for Firefox accounts. We didn’t ask for whatever feature flavor of the month that Mozilla got a hair up their ass about that they just had to throw into the browser. We asked for simple things and Mozilla overshot them. How are any of these features meant to uphold the values once held by Mozilla?
If you want to talk about a nothing-burger, think of all of the reasons that Mozilla had danced around to excuse itself by throwing these things in. And the cherry on top was the Terms of Service. Truly, they are tone-deaf.
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To be fair nobody asked Mozilla to serve a stupid and detached statement without contextualizing what they meant or try to achieve.
[Edit] it feels like they’re asking for the outrage. You can’t just drop assurances of not selling data without explaining if your crowd is privacy aware. You can’t take broad licenses from your users if you don’t explain for what they are for. Having plaintext comment next to the lawyer speak would have fixed all that and none of this had to be this shitty. [/Edit]
And this is why I assume no-one read the articles; because they did explain themselves.
It also includes a nonexclusive, royalty-free, worldwide license for the purpose of doing as you request with the content you input in Firefox. This does not give Mozilla any ownership in that content.
It’s still in the current version of the TOS without a direct explanation which can be found anywhere close to it. This is plain bad from a communication stand point.
I read them, still want to leave.
I would say no. With the recent debacle the writing is on the wall. Mozilla is not taking our privacy seriously. So, I have switched away from vanilla Firefox.
I would recommend using a fork instead: LibreWolf, or Floorp, or Zen; and Ironfox on Android. Mullvad Browser is another option.
Floorp is kinda sketchy these days, it went closed source, then maybe reopen sourced. I would say Zen is the better pick. and on Android Fennec is a great Privacy fork of Firefox.
Not maybe. It is open source. It never went close sourced, Dev made it source available till they figured out the future of the project.
Also I won’t recommend zen cause it’s in beta. It’s way too unstable and the dev is no better at handling situations like above. But if you dont mind stability, zen is definitely really good feature wise
How come I never see people recommending Waterfox? Is it just not popular or is there some major flaw?
That’s the one I’m using and it looks virtually the same to Firefox. I’m not sure if there’s some issue with it either, I was scouring the comments for someone recommending it.
Ironfox breaks some things for me. I prefer fennec on Android…
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Firefox with like 10 different settings checkboxes unticked through its settings to disable phoning home, prevent sponsored suggestions, prevent recommendations, etc. + ublock origin extension installed, obviously.
It used to be just an install and go ordeal. Now you have to have all these caveats. I used to send technical and interaction to Mozilla but given their terms changes I can’t be confident in them with even that much information anymore.
Final thought is I don’t see what Mozilla’s endgame is. It costs a lot of money to develop a competitive and impactful web browser, I understand that much. Where are they supposed to get their money from? Well. I don’t get paid millions a year to solve this problem, but it seems pretty obvious the current leadership have made their minds up to make Firefox yet another advertisement browser.
For example from me, because I like their relay function.
You mean the Email relay? There are great alternatives like SimpleLogin or Addy.io. Both have their own browser extensions, but you can also connect them to Bitwarden and use that for browser integration.
Didnt know that about Bitwarden.
Very neat. Thank you~
Links2 is obviously the best browser. #links2gang
But librewolf is pretty neat.
Nope. LibreWolf & Waterfox are top-tier, Zen and Mullvad Browsers aren’t bad at all
I will say as nice as Zen seems (I agree that it’s not bad), I don’t really like the whole “vertical tabs” shtick. I mean, I can see why some people would like that, but personally I never got into it. It just looks weird to me and I like seeing more of my tab names (weirdly enough that’s exactly what a lot of pro-vertical users claim is good about them lol).
Also, from a privacy standpoint, not a huge fan personally of the fact that unlike LibreWolf, Zen Browser doesn’t have ResistFingerprinting enabled by default (not sure if it’s even in there tbh).
Right? To me it’s the opposite of minimal.
Exactly!
i agree with wanting see more of tab title. for people who regularly keep 50+ tabs open, that is a pipe dream.
if tabs are so many that their iconized anyway, making the tab bar vertical and iconized isn’t much difference.
and if the bar would expand on hover (hopefully in near future), like in Brave (not sure if it’s a Chrome feature), then it can be wide enough to see plenty of title without reducing the webpage size most of the time.
You know, I’ve been trying Zen and although I still prefer horizontal to vertical, I can see I was actually somewhat wrong about what I said.
The sidebar is actually expandable (they don’t make that clear) and if you do expand it beyond its default, you can actually see more of each tab’s titles. It actually helps a lot if you have a shitload of tabs.
If you are like me however and typically try to have only a smaller number of tabs pinned (or consistently open), typically no more than like a third of your screen width at most, then there really is not much of a difference unless you’re already used to vertical over horizontal tab bars.
I’ve been trying to keep less tabs open.
it’s not easy while test-driving multiple search engines for every search lol
Oh I get it! It’s certainly not easy. Haha. I struggle with it myself, but I’ve noticed that my mental health improves the more uncluttered my external life is, and my browser is a part of the latter.
“A tidy room is a tidy mind” and all that… It’s not 100% accurate, but it’s got a ring of truth to it, I’ve found, at least for me.
