From both a technical perspective and if the maintainers of these anti-cheat will consider porting or re-writing kernel level anti-cheat to work on linux, is it possible? Do you think that the maintainers of kernel level anti-cheat will be adamant in not doing it, or that the kernel even supports it or will support it. I think that if it ever happens, there will be a influx of people moving to linux, or abandoning their duelboots, and that alot of people will hate that such a thing is available on linux.
I surely hope they never will, no user program should ever be allowed to run at kernel level, that’s what malware does.
I personally avoid those kind of games, but those who won’t can dual-boot.
Same
Or…just don’t play those games.
99% of their communities are more toxic than radioactive waste. And, they are not open source and they don’t respect privacy. Because they are greedy.
All true. And yet, plenty of people do want to play those games. And there are other games (Borked) which also cannot be played no matter what. Really annoying, that.
Yeah, some people are just stubborn. By some i mean most. You gotta adapt, what do you think evolution’s trying to tell you?
Sure hope not. If I wanted to run rookits I’d just use Windows. Why bother with Linux?
This is why I don’t want more Linux adoption and don’t understand people cheering every new user. We’re in a sweet spot where a lot of games enable userland anticheat while we don’t get kernel level ports (however they may be shipped doesn’t matter). The only thing that’ll come out of more adoption is kernel level anticheat ports that’ll probably work with a few corporate backed distros only and we’ll actually lose the games we have today. Because those will switch over the kernel level alternatives too.
The only way I’d like Linux to be a generic multiplayer platform is server side anticheats. It is very obviously the way to go and we are seeing extremely slow adoption (e.g. Marvel Rivals).
On one side, I’m one of those glad for people coming to Linux because Linux is truly fantastic and it can make your life easier on many things, I’m happy for them.
On the other side, I share your concerns, because everything that gets adopted by the masses is inevitably subject to enshittification, I would never want that to happen to Linux.
We should find a sweet middle-point tho I have no idea what that would be.
TBH I’m not sure wider adoption would worsen things ? Gaming distros would probably ship bullshit anticheat modules by default while the others would not, or at most provide some documentation on how to opt in.
I think it’s quite similar to the situation with NVIDIA proprietary drivers? (I don’t own a graphics card so I’m not super aware on this topic)
My point is you would either have to run those modules on Linux or not play the games. Which is the same as running them on Windows or not play the games with the exception that you’d lose the games that run on Linux with userland anticheat now.
I can’t wait until I am able to give random programs kernel access on my system! That doesn’t sound problematic in the least! After all, I have the fullest confidence that for companies developing anticheat, my security is their highest concern! /s
AFAIK Microsoft have plans to block kernel level anti-cheat on Windows. After the CrowdSec issues last year, they’re rethinking which types of programs should even be allowed to run in kernel space.
Edit: I was wrong. They actually want to increase what can be done in user mode, to reduce reliance on kernel mode code.
They don’t. One article lied, people never read anything but the title and here we are this getting mentioned every once in a while.
Thanks. I looked into it a bit more and it looks like they actually want to increase what can be done in userland, to reduce the reliance on kernel mode. That’s still a good solution, if things the anti-cheat code needs to do can be moved into userland.
They actually want to increase what can be done in user mode, to reduce reliance on kernel mode code.
That’s basically what Apple did with macOS 11. They deprecated kernel extensions and replaced them with “system extensions”, and created new APIs so security tools, VPNs and such could function without kernel-level privileges.
i assume the problem with league of legends since last year is because they switched to kernel level anticheat then? would be nice if they get kicked in the face for the anti-linux decision they made so we can start playing again :P
I just itch my moba itch with dota
I think its less a question of the technical feasibility, and more of an issue that we, as users, don’t want more closed-source blobs in our kernels. Meanwhile, the publishers insist that they can’t open-source their anti-cheat code; Their idea being that if we know what’s in it, it will be easier to bypass.
Basically, one distro or a few(at most) may get anti-cheat integrated one day(like, say, SteamOS), but it will likely never be in your standard Linux kernel.
They could go the route of kernel modules, I would think, but for whatever reason, we’re still having this conversation.
Basically, one distro or a few(at most) may get anti-cheat integrated one day(like, say, SteamOS), but it will likely never be in your standard Linux kernal.
Valve also has server side anticheat in his games (Counter Strike or Deadlock). They are also against it.
Kernel-level anticheats can be bypassed anyways, but they are the easy solution for the corps that want to sell their multiplayer game.
Shite is still shite, even if it’s open source shite.
Short answer: no
Long answer: only the most important things should even have such low-level access to the system. A fucking game is not in that category. Nooooooo
Obligatory Fuck Denuvo. If I had virtually infinite money, I’d do a hostile takeover of Denuvo and burn it to the ground.
I sure hope not. Play on someone else’s pc if you want them to have control.
From technical point of view it is possible. eBPF already has almost everything needed for doing that. And I think it can be done with a simple LKM but if they want it included in the main tree I’m sure they’ll get some colorful email from Linus.
Every IT-literate person fights kernel-lvl malware disguising as games with everything they got.
Since Linux has a high percentage of those, I hope those “solutions” will never spread
One way I can imagine it being some certified Linux kernel versions that are accepted and worked together with anticheat creators. That way Valve could use the Kernel in Steam Deck or SteamOS, so any game works out of the box. And other distribution users can just install this Kernel too, if their distributions provide it.
Anyone who don’t want to have Kernel level anticheat systems enabled on their system, do not need to install the Kernel. Therefore they are secure against it. But for anyone else who wants it, they can. At least this option would be a compromise.
if it’s linux, it has to be open source. If it’s open source, people will code around it immediately. How about not trying to shoehorn this useless crap in the first place?
It doesn’t have to be open source. There’s plenty of binary firmware and drivers around.
Besides your argumentation that open source is less secure, a driver or program does not need to be in the Kernel to work with it. Does it? Kernel level anti cheat systems are available on Windows too, without being in the Windows Kernel. All it needs is a Kernel module to load it separately. Something like the Nvidia proprietary driver. I don’t know if this would work for Anticheat.
Back to your point of open source and code around it. Well they code around the proprietary tools too. Reverse engineering stuff is possible. So your argumentation is a bit weak. Open Source means more people are looking into and its actually more secure and up to date (for common and actually developed drivers).
And you don’t have to use it, if you don’t like. How about letting people give options instead calling something they want or need being useless? It has a use and reason, so its by definition not useless. Instead using Windows, they could use Linux.
where did i say it’s less secure? I said it will be coded around. as in forked and the changes patched out/worked around. The point is that it’s pointless to even try. Because it won’t work for those who do choose to use it, due to all the ones bypassing it
If the Kernel is not signed, then it does not matter. The whole point of signed Kernels is to only execute that specific code. Its not pointless. But besides that, even if you don’t like Open Source, nobody said the Anticheat software has to be open source. This is something you implied. I don’t think any of the Anticheat companies would Open Source it anyway, so this was not my suggestion at all.
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AFAIK the current anticheat systems on Linux only run in userspace not at kernel level. This does mean Linux is theoretically easier to bypass compared to windows, some games just dont seem to want to take that risk. For as you said 3% of the market.
I personally disagree with that stance though, because all it takes is a hardware device and all software anticheats are useless no matter the os (think a raspberry pi, and capture card). So anticheat is really a losing battle anyways.
Yeah… Apex Legends dropped Linux support a while ago and that’s one of the reasons they cited; and tbf, there were publicly available Linux cheats that ran under proton.
But there’s also loads of publicly available “external” cheats that run the way you described. Some run through a virtual machine even. It’s just not a robust solution for preventing cheating, and mostly hurts the legit Linux players.
It’s a lot more than just “a few dev hours”. You need to invest in training your testers on Linux, potentially purchasing new hardware, invest in programmers that can deal with writing for Linux, etc… Just because something like BattlEye has a checkbox for Linux support doesn’t mean that all it takes is to click the button and rebuild your game.
we’re maaaaaybe 3% of the market on a good day, so they say “fuck it”
So true. And worse than that, we’re probably also the 3% most likely to skip buying a game that requires anti-cheat, anyway. Many of us are famously un-friendly toward closed source code running with invasive permissions.
Doesn’t Splitgate 2 have kernel level anti cheat that works on Linux? Maybe it is “trapped” inside wine/proton but they explicitly made it work and people are thanking them on steam discussions.
Helldivers 2 works (or at least used to when I played it) as well, while requiring kernel access on windows
It’s relatively trivial, you just need to write a kernel module. You’d just need/want to make it gpl so everything it does is fully audited and transparent. That’s not a problem, is it? Right?
From a technical standpoint, you could argue that someone could create a fork of the kernel that spoofs the interface that the anticheat uses to make it ignore things. You can, of course, also do something similar in Windows, but security theatre never let practicality get in the way.
No Wine/Proton cannot translate calls that run too deep into the Kernel
What does it even mean? People can recompile the kernel to turn the crap off.
You don’t even need to do that. You could just blacklist or delete the module.
The game wouldnt work, but you could do it.
And then the game wouldn’t work.
