i think this would be the proper way. ideally the vanguard would slowly transition power to the Working class willingly. i think the working class in its entirety is not conscious enough to organize a revolution.
sure thats one way of viewing it.
if push come to shove the working class always has the power to overthrow the vanguard. yet large populations are generally to stupid to do so due to all the propaganda and reeducation (see the USA currently). first one would need to remove capitalism from the equation, and create political education that is systemically impossible to manipulate or censor. after that the working class will gain consciousness over time.
The first is in separating the vanguard from the working classes. The vanguard is a subsection of the working classes chosen by the rest of the working classes. Vanguards derive their power from the bottom-up.
The second is in assuming the working classes are stupid and easily duped. People instead license themselves to believe what they think benefits them is good. Socialist systems have always focused on education and literacy programs because a society run by the working classes works better with more informed members, but even within capitalism workers still come to understand the necessary conditions for their own liberation simply by existing within the brutally oppressive systems.
Historically vanguards only ever derive any form of power or legitimacy through popular support from the broader working classes. Had vanguards not been popularly supported, they would have failed. You can see examples of supposed “vanguards” that do fail, such as the Gonzaloist CPP Shining Path, which slaughtered peasants and alienated themselves from the working classes.
Historically vanguards derive power thru the threat of violence. Sure, for a vanguard to initially gain power, some level of popular support is important. But often the opposition to the bourgeois is more important than actual embrace of the vanguard. And once the full might of the state is in their control, with it’s propaganda and threat of violence, a mandate from workers becomes unimportant.
i dont think it is that wrong to seperate those 2. one could argue that by having different power than the rest all (regardless of where its coming from), it again becomes its own class.
and yes people realise themselves that capitalism is a horrendous system, yet they dont realise it enough to unite. if it was that easy to realise, we wouldnt have racism and such anymore and would have already liberated the working class. yet the class as a whole remains ignorant even if individual groups see through it all. im not saying the working class as a whole is stupid because it cant get smarter, im saying it is intentionally kept stupid and divided, and to stop that we first need to rid ourselves of the system thats responsible for that.
If you separate class from its basis in relation to the mode of production, then you are pivoting from Marxism. Class is not about “power,” it’s about social relations to the mode of production and how we fit into that. Plumbers and factory workers are both proletarian despite having different jobs, the same applies to administrators and managers.
Secondly, history is not a series of snapshots but instead a dialectical process. We should help accelerate class consciousness, and tackle bourgeois cultural hegemony, but we are not outside the class struggle and instead are within it.
That is true, but it’s a huge undertaking to do even once, let alone twice in ‘rapid’ (10-30 years) succession once it turns out the vanguards have become the oldguards.
Systemic change need to happen naturally from a grass-roots level if it is to truly last as an alternative to the status quo. It needs to be something that all people feel heard and supported in, and want to see succeed.
This is one of the beauties of anarchism in that it promotes local groups to flourish, and to make the changes they need to suitable for their needs and environs. You can start working on secondary support systems without needing to wait for the revolution.
as long as they gwt seized
If the Vanguard seize the means of production, then the Working class still need to seize the means of production or we’re still at square one.
i think this would be the proper way. ideally the vanguard would slowly transition power to the Working class willingly. i think the working class in its entirety is not conscious enough to organize a revolution.
And ideally capitalism would wither away and die on its own accord. The vanguard is not credible enough to wield authority over the working class.
sure thats one way of viewing it. if push come to shove the working class always has the power to overthrow the vanguard. yet large populations are generally to stupid to do so due to all the propaganda and reeducation (see the USA currently). first one would need to remove capitalism from the equation, and create political education that is systemically impossible to manipulate or censor. after that the working class will gain consciousness over time.
This is wrong on two levels.
The first is in separating the vanguard from the working classes. The vanguard is a subsection of the working classes chosen by the rest of the working classes. Vanguards derive their power from the bottom-up.
The second is in assuming the working classes are stupid and easily duped. People instead license themselves to believe what they think benefits them is good. Socialist systems have always focused on education and literacy programs because a society run by the working classes works better with more informed members, but even within capitalism workers still come to understand the necessary conditions for their own liberation simply by existing within the brutally oppressive systems.
The Vanguard chose themselves and if you don’t like it, straight to Lubyanka
Historically vanguards only ever derive any form of power or legitimacy through popular support from the broader working classes. Had vanguards not been popularly supported, they would have failed. You can see examples of supposed “vanguards” that do fail, such as the Gonzaloist CPP Shining Path, which slaughtered peasants and alienated themselves from the working classes.
Historically vanguards derive power thru the threat of violence. Sure, for a vanguard to initially gain power, some level of popular support is important. But often the opposition to the bourgeois is more important than actual embrace of the vanguard. And once the full might of the state is in their control, with it’s propaganda and threat of violence, a mandate from workers becomes unimportant.
i dont think it is that wrong to seperate those 2. one could argue that by having different power than the rest all (regardless of where its coming from), it again becomes its own class.
and yes people realise themselves that capitalism is a horrendous system, yet they dont realise it enough to unite. if it was that easy to realise, we wouldnt have racism and such anymore and would have already liberated the working class. yet the class as a whole remains ignorant even if individual groups see through it all. im not saying the working class as a whole is stupid because it cant get smarter, im saying it is intentionally kept stupid and divided, and to stop that we first need to rid ourselves of the system thats responsible for that.
If you separate class from its basis in relation to the mode of production, then you are pivoting from Marxism. Class is not about “power,” it’s about social relations to the mode of production and how we fit into that. Plumbers and factory workers are both proletarian despite having different jobs, the same applies to administrators and managers.
Secondly, history is not a series of snapshots but instead a dialectical process. We should help accelerate class consciousness, and tackle bourgeois cultural hegemony, but we are not outside the class struggle and instead are within it.
You heard CowBee, stop having independent thoughts.
it is important for people to voice their disagreement, regardless of wether or you, i, or anyone else likes it or not
That is true, but it’s a huge undertaking to do even once, let alone twice in ‘rapid’ (10-30 years) succession once it turns out the vanguards have become the oldguards.
Systemic change need to happen naturally from a grass-roots level if it is to truly last as an alternative to the status quo. It needs to be something that all people feel heard and supported in, and want to see succeed.
This is one of the beauties of anarchism in that it promotes local groups to flourish, and to make the changes they need to suitable for their needs and environs. You can start working on secondary support systems without needing to wait for the revolution.
I hope you have some ideas because I have serious doubts that’s possible in any political/economic system.
It’s in the interests of the Vanguard for Revolution to never end. I consider it unlikely that they would willingly transition.