UniversalMonk, PapaSkwat, DonaldJMusk, TheSilentNickel, QuantumTickler, his communities are full of Astro turfing sock puppets.
EDIT: My list of sock puppets. I doubt it’s perfect and I may have picked up a few that weren’t him
Area15@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyz
DonaldJMusk@lemmy.today
EndlessApollo@hilariouschaos.com
EndlessApollo@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org
KaratinBandit@feddit.uk
PapaSkwat@lemmings.world
PapaSkwat@lemmy.today
PhilipsHurtFeelings@crazypeople.online
QuantumTickle@maga.place
Rhoerii@lemy.lol
Snatchdaddy@hilariouschaos.com
TheSilentNickel@feddit.org
barrygoldwater@lemmy.wtf
donaldjmusk@maga.place
thesilentnickel@lemmy.today
thesilentnickel@lemmyusa.com
donaldjmusk@lemmyusa.com
quantumtickler@hilariouschaos.com
quantumtickler@feddit.org
quantumtickler@lemmy.myserv.one
To the mods of this comm, I understand this isn’t a post complaining about a mod action taken against me. It’s hardly even a complaint against a mod, although he does mod a handful of communities. I know it’s a hard-to-prove personal message that the accused will deny sending or say was a joke he told a troll, his word vs mine. But this is beyond the usual actions mods take. This is abuse of the fediverse, harrassment, ban evasion, and vote manipulation.
I believe the situation to be self evident even without this message that the users who frequent DonaldJMusk’s comms are primarily him with a new username on a new server and they’re leaking out into other communities with ill intent.
If action is to be taken against this post, I ask that it be locked and not deleted.
Sorry but this is out of scope for this community. Also y’all can’t behave. Reminder that the burden of proof is on the accuser. You can’t prove a negative (i.e. “prove such-and-such isn’t Universal Monk”)
Obligatory fuck UniversalMonk and his stupid AI character in each of his accounts’ pfp. Dude is easily the worst parts of the fediverse wrapped up in a shit bow. Just block lemmy.today its a fascist instance. Same with the lemmyusa.today one or whatever.
The bigger problem here is that lemmy.today is being used as a gateway for astroturfing. That’s the issue that needs fixing here.
Isn’t the point of the federation to enable defederating rogue instances, or am I wrong on that?
Hot take: this is why automatic federation is a bad idea. Even if your malicious instance gets defederated, you can just spin up a new one!
I imagine eventually automatic federation will stop being a thing for a lot of instances.
Yes. That was precisely what I was getting at there lol.
Well fair enough
yea it is, after the tankies triad were defederedated from most instances, i suspect some of those users are making new accounts in the other instances to troll.
I never liked the idea of blocking. Shoving my fingers in my ears and singing “la la la” allows these antics to continue unchallenged. Besides, they’re not all on one instance.
I picked Lemmy.today because it allows me to block instances instead of the admins deciding which to defed from. But I do acknowledge that it allows a lot of freaks in.
Except an admin confirmed UM isn’t doing this.
This admin will state that UM is a bot. And wouldn’t ya know it some of the other signup attempts used the alt names. Weird that.
I don’t think many admins know infosec practices very well to be frank.
So we have 2 admins who have proof he’s not and 1 who has no proof (documents, photos, just anecdotal).
Nooope, I have IP data, email logs, and other things. However, much of the data had fallen off my WAF retention period. Oddly convenient how you just assume I don’t have these things rather than keeping them close because I don’t want the bots to figure out how I’m catching them.
When you conveniently leave out that providing proof reduces an admins ability to re-use certain detection methods, it makes me pretty convinced you’re complicit.
When you conveniently leave out that providing proof reduces an admins ability to re-use certain detection methods
How the heck would anyone but you know that your proof would reveal your detection method? That’s not a given.
And what’s the point of collecting proof if the only way you have to convince others is “trust me bro, I’ve got the evidence, but you can’t see it, my dog ate it.”
And then when asked for proof you jump to implicate the person asking for proof? That’s terrible form. We have an instance rule against bad-jacketing users:
- Don’t be shitty to each other. i.e. […] or bad-jacketing is bannable.
Weird how he’s just not gonna give it away. I’m sure any day now they’ll have proof he’s a robot and also a Tankie and also a fascist and also a shill and also…
Well, You’re more than welcome to reach out on more secure comms, such as matrix to get the proof! It’s strange how that’s basically standard for most of the other respectable instances, but not here.
Give the documents then? And am I a bot now too?
Haven’t you heard? You and I are the same bot. And we control a top secret government-sanctioned group of bots who create bots who create more bots. Because Lemmy has millions and millions of users and can topple entire governments. Keep up, man! 🤣
God I wish I was paid to shit post, would make dealing with morons easier like my retail gig.
Give the documents then? And am I a bot now too?
Interesting how you continue to leave out the security implications of posting this publicly.
Odd that.
I know not if you are a bot, you aren’t on my instance, nor would it be likely you could get through my process.
I do know that you are awfully defensive of sockpuppet like behavior though.
The sock puppet behavior of… One user being harassed by users and defending them? The sock puppet behavior of… Wanting screenshots?
Hey @Flatworm7591@lemmy.dbzer0.com is it possible to take screenshots that would prove something without being a security leak?
Like somehow you claim he signed up with the same email. Or same address, or anything. But no proof because it’s a security risk.
Yeah I have Bigfoot in my basement. No you can’t see him. No I can’t give you photographs. Just take my word for it. Why yes others have said it without proof before but I’m different.
Hey don’t forget the admin that says I’m a bot now. DM me and I’ll give ya my phone number so we can chat. I wanna know if my voice sounds like a bot too!
I appreciate the offer but it might be better for the admin who swears you’re a bot. Phone calls are always a moment of anxiety for me.
And this admin, do they administer all of these instances? Or just one of them?
Or rather, this admin, do they have a WAF? Are they analyzing the traffic that comes in? Are the sure they’re checking every point of interaction for consistency? If no, then they didn’t really “Check”.
lemmy.today admin, so the one who a chunk of the bots are under.
Better, but he could just be using a device with a VPN. I have enough old ass computers in my house to do the same thing.
Could be. But also somehow UM is smart enough to avoid everything but also dumb enough to be caught.
Says the guy who has an AI character in his pfp. lol
Idk where mine is from I jacked it the right way, through an image search. Yours literally features the same guy in all your pfp. Its the guy in your current pfp, you got him right now. Yet they are different images. So either you are editing pictures of yourself or you are really fond of this dude.
Yours literally features the same guy in all your pfp.
The reason he’s in all my real profiles, is because I don’t hide the fact that my name is on different instances. I don’t create alt names. I never have.
So either you are editing pictures of yourself or you are really fond of this dude.
Both, actually! My profile pic is a character in many of my books–I write for a living. He’s basically me and the picture is too, but with way better ai lighting. I’m real-life shirtless all over reddit, so feel free to accuse me of thirst trapping for attention. But I digress.
Some trolls take my name and try to make fake accounts with it, but they get banned fast. My name is known enough that those fakes stand out. That’s what makes this whole thread funny.
I’ve never hidden who I am. And I’m not banned from Lemmy–you’re replying to me right now. See? This account, along with my anarchist.nexus one, has been my main home for a long time.
The idea that I’m running “hundreds of sock puppets” doesn’t hold up. What would be the point? These supposed accounts don’t even agree with each other. There’s no shared message, no agenda, no pattern. What would anyone gain by creating a swarm of fake accounts that argue with each other? It makes no sense. You yourself just pointed out that I keep the same crappy profile on my usernames.
OP’s account is less than one day old, and this his only post, and the only comments he’s made are in this thread. OP also admitted to creating a troll account with someone’s same username to troll someone who he thought was me: His quote: I will admit the PapaSkwat@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.com was me counter-trolling but I am not finding Lemmy worth the fight.
Now I have no idea why he thinks the PapaSkwat dude is me, because I checked that dudes posts, and I don’t even see anything controversial. So no clue what that’s all about. But right there is he admitting to doing what he is trying to accuse me of doing. lol
Everything about the accusations in this thread collapses under basic logic.
You hate me. I get it. That’s fine and it makes me feel important! But at least hate me for the shit I do; not what some other random posters are doing. lol
Thanks, friend! (yes, despite the hate, I consider you my friend. We’re all gonna make it.)
Logical arguments? A robot obeys logic, ergo you’re a bot now. No proof, just a bot now. All those things you didn’t do are now proof.
I know. I keep forgetting I’m a bot. Dammit!
First, I was a russian spy. Then I was a chinese spy for a while. There was that fun guy who swore up and down he could prove I was a North Korean plant was fun (I miss him!). And now I’m a bot.
Oh, and now me and CM0002, who talks plenty of shit about me, are the same guy. To be honest tho, that’s a fun theory. And one of my favs. He’d be so pissed to see people saying that about him! lmao
I’m really confused by all the things I am now though.
Could someone please make a list of all the things I am and all the different countries I work for? And my 300 alt names? Pay scale would be nice too, so I can use to negotiate pay. Thank you!
I wonder what Russia would be like if the majority of them actually gave a fuck about their current living standards instead of just being fucking loser trolls obsessed with America
Least xenophobic liberal, folks.
I’d just like to add that piefed.social, Rimu has already banned a lot of these accounts.
Just a reminder to this individual.
You have to make dozens of clone accounts to make it appear as though your opinion is agreed with.
We don’t. Nice cope.
He has a
pensionpenchant for creating accounts mocking people that troll him such as QuantumTickle, pooperNickel, PapaSkwat, DarkDecay, and probably others. Sometimes he steals their name, sometimes he is almost original.Penchant BTW.
Learn something new every day!
Sometimes he steals their name
Interesting: that’s been an M.O. of another troll with many alts, except she does it across many social media platforms: http://archive.today/2024.04.29-024239/https://www.deviantart.com/noname234252/journal/An-extensive-rundown-of-Triagonal-Tynan-Laird-1046099342
- CraigOhMyEggo@lemmy.ml
- CraigOhMyEggoAlt@lemmy.wtf
- Fizzymus@masto.ai
- Jedikkeneus@sh.itjust.works
- KaneLivesInDeath@lemmy.world
- KumoYumeMiru@lemmy.kya.moe
- LurkingWitch32@lemmy.ml
- PatrickStar@sh.itjust.works
- Popsicles@lemmy.wtf
- shinigamiookamiryuu@lemm.ee (A.K.A. “Call me Lenny/Leni”)
- ShiverMeTimbers@lemm.ee
- SohruKurisutaru@hilariouschaos.com
- Voidist@midwest.social
ahhh that makes sense. the most upsetting thing to me is how much of his own time he’s wasting. like literally everyone who sees his stuff immediately clocks him as either playing a character, or too stupid to interact with.
just a sad, sad person.
well it’s really just a bot so no time wasted
That guy sounds like a complete cunt. Absolute waste of oxygen. Here’s hoping horrific things happen to him and his team of turds. Enjoy hell, cyka.
Full transcript of message:
The downvotes don’t mean anything anyway, cuz the articles are still right there in community, comrade aaron
Don’t worry, im not celebrating that a special team now has 300 different names on here on lemmy. no not me. I wouldnever celebrate such a psyops. i wouldnt be part of that,yes?
isnt that great? 30 people. just 10 names each. now 300 accounts. all acting liberal getting liberal respect. Then slowly surely changing minds as we bring out flaws of liberal .
And they r hiri8ng more. pay very good for here.
Not that I have anything to do w that.but it is so funny how its all happening under Lemmys eyes and no one can stop it.
news articles here and there. they seem liberal or neutral. then little by little they change. no one even notice.
All happengin and no one even knows.
not that i havetowrry since i have nothing to do with that.
No, not me. Just little old me here in my corner being ban happy. no bother to anyone. no cares here.
i would never lead a a team of 30 people to creat 300 accounts just to change minds of pity americans.
dont worry comrade aaron about me. I am just being quiet and ban happy here in my little corner.
dont worry because i woudl never have teams of peole not getting banned in all the other communities. some that you have argue about, but they keep us there.
they are not getitn banned anywhere. they are playing verygood game of tricking lemmy.
But not me. not little oldme, aaron.
you have never ever gotten rid of me and you never will. isnt that good news,comrade aaron?
lemmy is in land of free so no law broken just becuae ur mad. isn’t that funny? differning opinions are good, yes?
будь здоров aaron. no need to worry about me little old me in my quiet corner no bother
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Yeah I downvoted several of his more daring lies and now he follows me around everywhere under the PapaSkwat name.
He calls you Aaron, too, huh?
He messaged me like he knew me. I think he tells himself that he only has 1 person downvoting his stuff. Maybe there was an Aaron in the past? I don’t really care, I just want him to fuck off.
So is cm0002 but no one seems to mind besides the troika and one other instance.
Cm0002 isn’t doing it to astroturf though, although a lot of people do mind.
It’s spammy, doesn’t credit the OPs, looks a lot like astroturfing, and is plain wrong, but since it’s against the original instances, it’s not only tolerated, but encouraged and applauded.
And imo that’s what karma is, thinking it’s somehow different when I or someone I like does it against someone I don’t like, kind of like certain treaties and other interstate agreements. And then people marvel the world is gone to rubbish, or complain when it’s done to them.
I’ve seen a lot of people complain about it. But regardless of your position, this particular situation is worse. This is someone essentially admitting to astroturfing.
but it’s different because…
Yes, I do view this as different. If specific servers want to ban all cm0002’s on sight - that’s up to them. But I view this effort as much more damaging and damaging beyond being annoying to people on the Fediverse.
I view it as karma, the unlearned lesson, that led all of us, to borrow a biblical expression, that led to us having corrupt politicians.
To explain: We were okay with Dems insider trading because “it was different,” and “not as bad as.” So corruption grew and we got what we got. And we will keep getting that until we hold ourselves and “our side” to the same standards we expect from others, from our plug on the corner to blowing up Venezuelan fishermen to combat drugs, but it’s really for oil and rare earths, or genociding Palestinians because Democrats wrong their hands while persuing genocidal policies through a state fighting proxy wars on our behalf because of our “interests in the area.”
Because if we refuse to root it out of ourselves and “ours,” why on earth would “they and theirs” root it out in themselves, giving us an unfair advantage? Escalation continues, and we are seeing a very real chance of nuclear holocaust now, because it’s always different when it’s us, of the “us” saying so.
And yet a few do hold ourselves and ours accountable. That’s why the troika isn’t engaging in cm002 tactics, and Iran didn’t obliterate an illegal state engaging in war crimes, including genocide, despite having the weapons and skill to anahilate everyone, disregarding women and children in the area, as Israel did to Palestine.
But do you. And marvel how the world is now on the brink of MAD.
I didn’t say anyone should be “okay” with CM’s behaviour. People are welcome to make similar threads here, and petition other admins of instances.
In any case, whatever hypocrisy here you say doesn’t matter. Whether or not CM is stopped or not wouldn’t stop DonaldJMusk from doing this. They are not connected. He wouldn’t see that CM is banned and think “Well gee, I won’t bother them!” That’s not how any of this works.
It’s different because they said it’s different.
;-}
CM0002 may not be shaking the cage as hard, but he is still a bot - and associated with the same botnet when I got a burst of signups for UM and his alts.
CM actually dislikes me. A lot. You should let him know your theory that he and I are the same bot. And please post his response here, cuz I wanna see!
Yeah cm actually hates you, so it’s odd they would be the same bot mesh. But I’m also a bot. I am a robot who is gonna go see Kill Bill. Beep boop, blood.
Yeah, I so hope CM comes here to find out that people think he is me. That’d be the best fucking thing! OMG! He’d lose his shit!
He’ll repost more memes from .ml and swear it’s their fault.
Interesting. If you can screenshot the logs and share them, maybe admins who allow this corruption will take appropriate action.
Give proof and evidence? Why do such a silly thing. Burn the witch! He floats, he’s a witch. If he sinks, he’s a witch.
Damn he really sat down and wrote all that
Him, grok, it’s hard to tell. But it’s his actions that speak the loudest.
Are these all based from lemmy.today?
No, most aren’t.
You should put in the instances they’re operating from so people can investigate. Or are you saying they’re all from every instance that comes up in search?
I usually find them through going to the modlog, typing in the username, and letting the autocomplete tell me what instances that username exists on. They’re all over the place. I will admit the PapaSkwat@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.com was me counter-trolling but I am not finding Lemmy worth the fight.
Okay, yeah, most of the major communities here where they operate from are lemmy.today and hilariouschaos.
Unmoderated instances.
Yeah, I would advise you to delete your alt mirroring him because it makes it harder to isolate for him.
Done
Lemmy.today isn’t unmoderated.
Low moderated might be a better way of putting it.
Fair. I’m sure it will be challenging to retain our low touch policy as the instance and / or the lemmiverse continues to grow. The laissez-faire approach only works for so long.
I will admit the PapaSkwat@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.com was me counter-trolling but I am not finding Lemmy worth the fight.
So let me get this straight: Your account is less than a day old, has one post total, and every comment you’ve made is in this thread. You’re now admitting you created a fake account with the name of someone you thought was a troll, just so you could troll them. And you think the original troll was actually a troll copying another troll that you believe was trolling. And who runs a network of 300 other trolls who troll. Now you’re saying all those trolls are the same person. Either that, or somehow they’re supposed to be… me? I’m hundreds of people now?!
How far does this troll multiverse go?! Dude, what the fuck are you even talking about? I have never even talked to you and you aren’t banned from any of my communities. What fuck are you on, brah?
This is usually where I say, “Thanks, friend!” But this…this…is just lunatic talk. Whatever you are on, don’t stop! LMAO
deleted by creator
I’m an Admin on lemmy.today and the accusation that DJM is UM (and others) occasionally comes up. Both I and @mrmanager@lemmy.today have looked into it and neither of us have ever been able to find any kind of proof.
I’ve engaged with several Lemmy users who supposedly had proof but they were unable to provide anything better than what OP has up above. It’s always loose conjecture and “trust me, bro”.
Yes the DJM account is annoying but that’s not enough to get banned from our instance.
deleted by creator
And the OP is mad at the admin showing it’s not UM and not breaking any rules either. Now they wanna leave Lemmy.
And the admin also called out OP for likely being the one to having alt names, because OP’s account is only a few hours old and the comments in this thread are the only comments he has made. I’ve never even interacted with OP and he’s not banned from any of my communties, so I’m not even sure how my name came up anyway! lol
Honestly might be an alt of someone who hates you, projection is their entire thing of such people.
This is a big kicker for me. I have an identical name on a separate instance only for when .today gets attacked. This isn’t that fucking serious! Who goes out of their way to manipulate votes? Like I treat the numbers as feedback as compared to an indictment.
I oddly got accused of it by some taco butt plug braincel, but found the entire idea laughable. Which much like relationship cheaters, makes me think they were actually doing it and projecting.
These numbers aren’t real or important, why do some people take them so seriously?
I’m baffled at how many people seem to take this all seriously. I ain’t got time or the brain cells to switch between 300 accounts, alt usernames, instances, etc. Just cuss me out here. Not only that, these people they are accusing of me being, don’t even post the same shit I do, so why would I create alternate names just to post stuff that opposed my views?
So wait, am I every socialist on here now? Or every anarchist? Or every republican? Or every democrat? Or every libertarian? Do people not realize that those are not the same things? Am I all of those now?!
Isn’t “astroturfing” supposed to mean having the same message? All the names they are listing post all kinds of different shit. So what would the point?
I have actually chuckled outloud by some of the comments here. People really need to go outside more. lol
Someone just linked me my mod file, and I apparently pissed off someone very active here cause I am perma banned from so many communities I never interact with.
It seems like this is early adoption, but current Reddit.
They flagged me for serial down voting, but votes are public and I very rarely down vote anyone.
If I gave enough of a shit I’d investigate & make a post here, but I got better things to do with my time. Other than today, cause I did babysit a popular post I made this morning for a few hours
In the old days, at least people were annoyed because of things I actually did by not voting for their hero. This thread is a whole 'nother level of weird though. I’ve read every comment, and I still haven’t figured out what it is people think I’m doing or what my goal would be. What are they mad about again? I see they are mad, but I don’t know why. I’m 300 people or something now? I’ve never even interacted with OP and his account is only 17 hours old. What in the world?! lol
Yeah, whatever man - I had a huge “attack” one day, and wouldn’t you know, about 4-5 of the usernames listed here were involved in that. Odd that. Also, their traffic patterns were hugely suspect.
I spent hours into investigating that “perhaps these are real users” and nope, they fell right into my honeypot routes. UM and CM0002 are bots, full stop.
They also aren’t Tucsonans, which is why I didn’t approve their signup.
I don’t think many admins actually know how to properly audit for bots - and honestly, that problem is harder when you’re a global instance.
It’s part of why I don’t think global instances will work for the fediverse, too vulnerable to bot manipulation. We need proof of humanity - and that scales better with local nodes.
Ok, now do DonaldJMusk and the other dozen accounts.
I know you can’t because of them being on other servers that aren’t playing ball but that kinda feels like the point.
You’re just the bartender, but once this conversation is over I’m done with Lemmy. Not your instance, all of Lemmy. He’s following and harassing me everywhere and the most you can do is call him annoying.
Fuck you.
Ok, now do DonaldJMusk and the other dozen accounts.
When I say “DJM” I am referring to DonaldJMusk.
He’s following and harassing me everywhere and the most you can do is call him annoying.
You obviously have another account because the one you’re commenting from is only 6 hours old, has just 1 post (this one) and only 17 comments (all in here). I checked because I wanted to see one of these accounts harassing you and look into it. Unfortunately there’s nothing for me to see so there’s nothing I can do.
My suggestion would be to report the user accounts that are causing you grief to the admins of the accounts home instance and then block them. Takes like 15 seconds to do both of those actions.
Fuck you.
Sadly my wife isn’t into sharing, otherwise I might be interested. 😘
Hey admin! I’m curious. I started an argument with someone and they mentioned my mod file. I’m still super new here and don’t quite understand what that means. Can you explain it and/or tell me how terrible of a person I am based solely on that file?
Modlog, here is yours. https://sopuli.xyz/modlog?page=1&actionType=All&userId=16720769
Thanks homie!
This is strange, it says I’m banned from my own instance. I’m so very confused.
And big lol at all the “serial down voting” bans. I thought voting was public, and I do not down vote often.
I must’ve seriously pissed off a prolific mod.
Lol.
It’s all the shit I talked to them!
This is a good trip down memory lane.
Amazing how you proved a day old account made to make this point wrong, and they freak out. I’m sure that’s not suspicious.
I insulted this idiot once or twice, and they didn’t follow me around. I’m curious how hard you went in the paint.
Edit: someone linked my mod file and apparently that idiot perma banned me from a dozen communities I have never interacted with. So my point is moot.
All DonaldJMusk accounts are banned on Piefed.social.
deleted by creator
But how else would the UM haters find new ways to stir shit without the one day old user who offered nothing? Proof is evil!
Weird thing to crash over people saying you could be wrong. That’s always an option.
- Day old account
- Op makes post that has loose evidence
- OP makes claim and gives no proof of that claim
- OP is told their evidence doesn’t make sense by two different admins independently
- OP then leaves because of it
- People then come in believing the thing made up and attack users who give them proof otherwise, like OP.
Bravo. And they say we’re the bots. Or Tankies. But Hexbear said we’re bad guys for not being Tankie enough. What a wild 48 hours it’s been for us. Somehow too far left but not left enough. Somehow asking for proof is a lie.
@TrickDacy@lemmy.world pinging for their claim so they may see the evidence isn’t on their side
That last sentence is why I’m a big fan! Let idiots get ratio’d. But I also wonder why our very laissez faire instance gets ddos’d so often.
Admin of tucson.social here - when UM signed up at tucson.social he made some crucial mistakes that made him easy to identify as a bot. Unfortunately, since this affects my security posture, I’m not keen on publicly posting what it is as he still makes the same mistakes.
However, let me add this - there are multiple places we should be validating are accessed from the same IP in a registration flow - all to many bot farms centralize certain aspects of their operations and use the same IP every time for only certain parts of a given flow.
I’ll also add that many admins are either stupid about site security, or actively complicit in the bot problem.
I’m not on tucson.social and I’m not a bot. I don’t remember ever signing up for that instance. If I did, maybe it was way back when I was bouncing around trying to find a good instance, but this has been my main account for a long time.
Calling me a bot doesn’t help your case. The only way that would make sense is if I were some sleeper robot packed with a human’s memories, unaware of my own programming. Then again, that’s straight out of a sci-fi novel I read once. So no, I’m real, and my memories are real. Wait, I think they are! Holy shit, what if I’m not real and I am just imagining I am real!
deleted by creator
“Trust me bro, I just don’t wanna give proof.”
“Trust me bro, I have unicorns. We don’t need proof, I just have them.”
They never do.
thanks for the heads up, I had no clue
