cross-posted from: https://mander.xyz/post/46886810
The American president has invited Canada to become his country’s “51st state,” an idea that has infuriated most of Canada’s 40 million citizens.
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Hence this suggestion: Why not expand the EU to include Canada? Is that so far-fetched an idea? In any case, Canadians have actually considered the question themselves. In February 2025, a survey conducted by Abacus Data on a sample of 1,500 people found that 44% of those polled supported the idea, compared to 34% who opposed it. Better the 28th EU country than the 51st US state!
One might object: Canada is not European, as required for EU membership by Article 49 of the EU Treaty. But what does “European” actually mean? The word cannot be understood in a strictly geographic sense, or Cyprus, closer to Asia, would not be part of the EU. So the term must be understood in a cultural sense.
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As [Canadian Prime Minister Mark] Carney said in Paris, in March: Thanks to its French and British roots, Canada is “the most European of non-European countries.” He speaks from experience, having served as governor of the Bank of England (a post that is assigned based on merit, not nationality). Culturally and ideologically, Canada is close to European democracies: It shares the same belief in the welfare state, the same commitment to multilateralism and the same rejection of the death penalty or uncontrolled firearms.
Moreover, Canada is a Commonwealth monarchy that shares a king with the United Kingdom.
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Even short of a formal application, it would be wiser for Ottawa to strengthen its ties with European democracies rather than with the Chinese regime. The temptation is there: Just before heading to Davos, Carney signed an agreement with Beijing to lower tariffs on electric vehicles imported from China.
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Why not CANZUKEU ;-)
I don’t think I want to be chained up to the UK.
They’re not a good example these days.
the UK is also barely european. also their politics feel very american
You’re not trapped with the UK; they’re trapped with us.
Besides, Spain and Denmark seem kinda cool for study-buddies, and we can learn a bit about how to take care of people instead of corporations if we hang out a bit.
Both were being called for under Trudeau, he couldn’t make it work.
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A lot of the time it felt like he would only do something if it benefited the Americans.
I was glad he stepped down, but it still illustrates that people wanted it.
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The American president has invited Canada to become his country’s “51st state,”
Not invited.
He threatened to annex Canada.
He threatened to
annex Canada.-destroy Canada and take it for himself.
I know that’s basically what you said, but “annex” is too fancy a word for the folks who don’t get why we’re so pissed off about it.
Trump has the brain of a rapist. He thinks any woman would be honoured to be fucked by him. He applies this same thinking to other countries. He thinks any country would be honoured to be pillaged by the Untied States
IIRC, he has used both terms (among other threats).
Quick fun fact: Morocco considers itself European in a geographical sense, or at least they once did and applied for membership.
I don’t think Morocco is super European culturally though. There are values they very much disagree with most Europeans on, such as LGBTQ rights.
I have no issue with Morocco as a trade partner, or easy travel between Morocco and the EU, but I don’t think we’d like the vibes they’d bring to the European Parliament, etc.
There’s something to be gained from diversity of course, but I do think their society’s values are a bit too different from most of ours.
Being not 100% a democracy and having massive nationalistic tensions with an equally powerful neighbor is a pretty big pill to swallow, as well.
Well, since no one else considered them to be geographially European it is of little importance. But culture wise? Definitely not if you ask me. I see better chances for Turkey after some minor (read: major) shifts in politics.
Honestly, geographically I can see how they’d consider to be almost European. The strait of Gibraltar isn’t that wide, it’s a shorter distance for them to cross to Europe than it is for me to cross to Finland from Estonia!
Don’t take this badly but generally when people spout that “their society’s values are different from ours” about how countries like Morocco and Turkey wouldn’t be a fit for the EU what they really mean is “they’re Muslims”.
You haven’t see much of Europe if you think LGBTQ rights are looked at similarly all over.
My own native Portugal used to be pretty homophobic 30 years ago and there are still plenty of people around who think like that even though the country’s culture tends towards perceptiveness rather than judgement.
Or just go to Hungary outside a main city and ask people what they think about Transexuality.
Don’t confuse Northern Europe and Scandinavia with most of Europe.
Frankly whenever I look at a country like Turkey or Morocco I mainly see my own country, Greece or even Spain 50 or 60 years ago, with pretty similar values - though a different main religion - and average levels of education. Pretty backwards by today’s standards, but one can hardly claim Portugal, Greece and Spain weren’t European back then.
Looking at my own country I would say universal education is what made most of the difference in those things you seem to think are “European values”.
The main problem with Morocco is as others pointed out it not being properly Democratic, the whole problem of Western Sahara and its self-determination, the huge wealth-imbalance between it and the EU (read: fear of mass immigration from there) and European Islamophobes (who are not just the European far-right).
You’re not wrong. I don’t think a 99.whatever percent Muslim country would be a good culture fit. I would in fact say the same about majority-Christian or majority-Jewish countries if they’re taking their religion a bit too seriously. In fact I’m slightly worried about how religious some EU countries are, such as Poland.
The thing is that some of these Islamic countries still take the religion too seriously, much more so than most of us “westerners” (USA being a notable exception but hey I don’t think they’d be a good cultural fit for EU either).
There’s pretty liberal majority-Muslim countries out there and it’s quite possible that Morocco and Turkey will also get there.
My own native Portugal used to be pretty homophobic 30 years ago and there are still plenty of people around who think like that even though the country’s culture tends towards perceptiveness rather than judgement.
Same for Estonia, we’re pretty accepting nowadays (with exceptions of course) and hell even 15-20 years ago it was very different. And yes, this was when we were already in the EU.
But LGBTQ rights were just one example. There’s also insane laws surrounding alcohol (though mostly don’t affect you if you’re not born in Morocco and don’t consume in public, the laws are particularly draconian for Moroccan Muslims and yes, they discriminate by religion).
Overall I just don’t think any society that still lets religion dictate how people have to live has a place in the EU. Which doesn’t mean I dislike Muslims in particular. I don’t want people of ANY religion telling me their god has any say in how other people have to live. Religion is fine, but secularism is needed.
And yes, there are the other issues you mentioned. In fact once some of those are taken care of, it’s quite likely that their society will also become more liberal naturally.
Canada is an independent country, thank you.
Where are your nukes?
Canadian politicians make all these BULLSHIT overtures about opening up trade and building up ties to the EU.
But it’s been a year, and we’re still stuck with just Apple and Google for phone options, with nothing like the fairphone available.
Someone should really smack Carney upside the head on this one.
Meanwhile USA east and west coast are looking into joining Canada (and EU?) while Trump is looking into convincing Canada’s oil producing provinces to join becoming states.
People wanted change. They’re going to get it. Not the one they voted for probably.
I like this idea a lot but would like to retain our currency. Otherwise I think it’s all upside.
Why are you attached to the currency?
As a dual Greek-Canadian citizen: fuck the Euro. It’s a straightjacket that forces everyone to follow the economic priorities of Germany.
While Greece does have economic problems because of Europe it’s not the Euro that’s at fault and they predate the EU.
Greece’s problems prior to the debt crisis were not the fault of the Euro.
The “solutions” that were offered to Greece during the crisis were not conceived with Greece’s best interest in mind, but with preserving the Euro and placating German (and other “northern”) right wingers that saw the debt crisis as a moral crusade against “lazy Mediterraneans”. That’s what I mean by straitjacket. The Greek economy was forced into an aggressive internal devaluation with no upside. Greece is currently trailing behind post-soviet-bloc members. It’s been effectively shot for at least 10-20 years.
This is to say: a currency union only works if you have other mechanisms for deeper union in terms of fiscality, transfers etc. And in an unequal system like the European one, this doesn’t work to the advantage of everyone. Canada should not let go of the CAD.
EDIT: We are a raw resouces exporter. So take oil for example. If Canada joined the Euro, and oil prices crashed while German manufacturing stayed strong, the Euro would remain high. Canada would be stuck with a “strong” currency it can’t afford, leading to the exact same “straitjacket” effect that Greece suffered from.
The “solutions” that were offered to Greece during the crisis were not conceived with Greece’s best interest in mind, but with preserving the Euro and placating German (and other “northern”) right wingers that saw the debt crisis as a moral crusade against “lazy Mediterraneans”.
The euro is a great advantage for all countries that take part, including Greece. It was Greece’s membership in Eurozone that made the support easier for all sides.
There have been problems back then and many of them may still persist, but they have nothing to do with the currency. Nor has it to do with the “right wingers” that saw “a moral crusade against lazy Mediterraneans” that forced Greece “into an aggressive internal devaluation.” This is meaningless propaganda rant.
In short: a country that controls its currency, faced with a situation like Greece’s in 2012 can ease the hurt by devaluing its currency. That option was not available to Greece because of the Euro. Instead the internal devaluation was forced through, to immense social cost.
That said, I take a very great deal of exception to the “propaganda” accusation. It implies I’m a bad faith actor here, which in turns means anything I say is suspect. If that’s what you think, I have no reason to continue this discussion. Clarify your position.
What should I clarify? What is it that you don’t understand?
You speak of “German and other northern right wingers” of not having “Greece’s best interest in mind” as they were on a “moral crusade” against “lazy Mediterraneans.” And these are not even all insults and accusations you made literally out of nothing. You don’'t cite a source, not a single number, or anything that would show that you even try to foster your opinion. It’s just an empty rant, and it’s not your first one if I may say so. You are firing a series of insults.
I agree just in one point: There is no reason to continue this discussion.
It’s a good way of putting it but we’re in that situation now with our own currency.
It’s just less forward facing that something costs twice as much because of the American dollar vs the same cost but we have half as much.
Simplified but I hope you can see the parallel.
Yes but we have full control of our currency and central bank and therefore we have more policy levers to fine tune our response. “Forward facing” is aspirational, I just don’t see the benefit.
You mean like the UK did? Do you need more prior art than that?
Take Sweden and Denmark as better examples. But these opt-outs are no longer available. The 1992 Maastricht Treaty is explicit.
I don’t think that’s an option for new members anymore. I know Denmark was given an exception, but it may be a sticking point for the EU
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We don’t need the Euro. We don’t need the European Stability and Growth Pact. Yes to closer integration, no to joining EU institutional dysfunction.
- We can keep our money
- Institutional dysfunction is a weird term for global management in a format intended to be collaborative and egalitarian. It’s different from how the East India company managed their territory because it’s not autocratic, and in this it’s kinda new.
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No we can’t. The 1992 Maastricht Treaty requires new entries to eventually join the Euro.
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I’m talking very specifically about how the EU is politically dysfunctional. The EU hasn’t matured institutionally, requiring unanimity for things that shouldn’t require it (c.f. Hungary) and informal pressure for things that shouldn’t (cf. how Greek democracy was rendered irrelevant by Shcauble).
Adopting the Euro is still de facto optional as long as a country’s government intentionally delays compliance with the five convergence criteria.
Why bother with full EU integration then? Let’s apply to join the EFTA and avoid the shenanigans.
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The problem is the EU is still designed as an institution that’s a vassal to US interests and that they are being eroded from the bottom up by far right parties financed by that same old suspects. The EU would need to start being able to throw countries like Hungary out, they would need to begin creating their own serious alternative to NATO, and they would need to put leadership over the bureaucracy from national disputes and interests to be the sort of Union that could accept Canada within it.
The problem is also that every single election year for a EU member is another chance for the foreign financed far right to have more control over their nation and the EU as an extension. There are EU countries that are pretty divided up at the moment and even with proportional representation between a right that wants easy money and has made sure to tank any government that does not have them as a majority (or at least a majority block with the far right) and a far right that is an expert at scamming and lying to potential voters within their pedoligarch fueled social network bubbles, the outlook is not good.
We need more obvious solutions, not obvious problems. /s
The solution is obvious, most are hoping for it to suddenly pop into their front page.
Occam disagrees. /s Also, Happy New Year!
False dichotomy, and both are bad ideas.
The snow is making that hand look like a pigeon roost.
Trump to annex Canada, the way he annexed underage girls.
