An experiment in language change
  • Dæmon S. ( dsilverz@calckey.world ) 
    3·
    7 months ago

    @yogthos@lemmy.ml

    The specific part about “Thou”, and how it was used in both sacred (praying) contexts, as well as a form of insulting, called to my attention.

    I didn’t know the latter usage (“Thou” as demeaning), and now I’m wondering (and slightly worried inside) about this. I often catch myself creatively using “Thou”, as far as an ESL (English as a second language) person could achieve during the 21st century, in a context of esoteric/pagan praying (specifically, invocation and channeling of Dark Mother Goddess, as in, e.g. “Where art Thou?, I said, then I saw Thee, and I got frightened by Thy vision, and thou kissedst me with Thy eyes and engulfedst me beneath Thy wrath”).

    I use “Thee”/“Thou”/“Thy” because I feel it’s the most “divine” way to express in said contexts, inspired by the bible while also being purposefully heretical and blasphemous bible-wise (as “Thou” isn’t being used to refer to their “God”, but to the Goddess they demonize). And also because it’s interchangeable to my native language’s second person (“Tu”, “Tua”, “Teu”; Portugal and some Brazilian states (especially northeast and north) uses “Tu” on a daily basis analogously to “você” (“you”); here in southeast Brazil, however, when “Tu” is used, it’s often in liturgical contexts, generally inside churches; I never heard the second-person pronoun “Tu” being used around me (São Paulo) in swearing or insulting use-cases).

    Is there any noticeable grammatical difference, albeit subtle, when “Thou” is used to insult rather than to express devotion/awe/fear? Or, instead, the pronoun is interchangeable so much it’s impossible to infer its intention (devotion or insulting) when detached from its surroundings (i.e. when the specific excerpt using “Thou” is isolated from the rest of the text/speech)?

    • CanadaPlus ( CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org ) 
      2·
      7 months ago

      The word “you” was both second person plural, and a formal way of addressing a single person, like in many European languages now. Over time, formal addresses were used in English more and more. Eventually, it was the only normal way to speak, and slipping back into thee/thou/thy became overly casual in a rude way.

      Standard English just doesn’t have a second person plural now. In the southern US “y’all” has emerged as a replacement. There are a few UK dialects that retained thou the whole time, as well.

      The King James bible translation is old, and used deliberately old-fashioned language even for the time. Do with that what you will.

  • CanadaPlus ( CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org ) 
    2·
    7 months ago

    Yep, could only understand snippets in 1200 (edit: Actually I can get paragraph 3). 1300-1700 was fine, although there was an unusual word here or there. 1800 actually sounded more familiar than 1900 because of the register of language the author used - even if the interjections are a bit more pretentious than you can get away with now.