This is so stupid, I should probably just walk away, but I think I’ve been permabanned, so it’s worth a try.
The context is a thread titled “Israeli minister says Israel has created and owns the European far right parties”. It consists of a screenshot of a tweet auto-translated from french about an Israeli minister talking about building a network of relationships with European far right parties.
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Which mod was PTB: @MysticMushroom1776@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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What sanction was imposed: comments removed (whatever), ban from the community !europe@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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Screenshot of the modlog entry, attached.
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The context of the posts that were originally removed is basically:
- a factual post that OP’s title does not follow from the content. The tweet talks about Israel helping build the European far right alliance, not “creating” and “owning” the European far right.
- In response to another user pushing back, I think we got a bit of a misunderstanding with the meaning of the word “conspiracy”, with me taking the word literally and arguing that the framing of “conspiracy” is basically an antisemitic trope harkening to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. There is a bit of (I think respectful) back and forth, which I think basically would have been resolved in a couple more turns.
- The mod intervenes and removes my posts without banning me yet. The mod accuses me of “dismissing anti-Zionism as antisemitic conspiracies”, “parroting pro-Zionist rhetoric” and “apologia” and “accusations of antisemitism”.
- I respond to the mod, underneath and that gets me banned. I don’t seem to have access to the post that triggered the ban, it does not appear in the modlog, but after the mod removed a 3 posts with the accusation of trolling, bad faith, zionist apologia and zionist rhetoric, I basically said “you misunderstood me, but I’m not going to “try to play chess with a pigeon”, just FYI I was not trolling, I was arguing in good faith and I was trying to say that we don’t need employ harmful antisemitic tropes in antizionist rhetoric”. I guess the most offensive thing I said was the pigeon-playing-chess, thing.
- That gets me banned as a “bad faith zionist troll”, with a nice little final message “Sayonara you worthless Zionist apologist.” Power tripping much?
- Why I think that’s unfair, and what I would ask as remedy:
Read my freaking posts. I am not doing zionist apologia. I’m not pushing zionist rhetoric. I am not trolling, and I’m engaging in good faith. I’m repeatedly referring to Israel as the “genocidal Israeli apartheid regime”.
What I am doing is pointing out that the conspiratorial framing is unnecessary and harmful. I am not conflating antizionism with antisemitism, I quite specifically say so. What I am saying is that “there exist antisemitic ways of doing antizionist politics”, which, I don’t know man, I think it’s …pretty obvious? My strongest claim is in the longer of my removed comments:
it is possible to do anti-Zionist politics in an anti-Semitic way. Let’s not fucking do that. Let’s instead do anti-Zionist politics in an anti-fascist way.
This is basic shit, no? In what fucking way is saying “let’s do anti-Zionist politics in an anti-fascist way” even remotely “zionist apologia”?! I mean, come on.
In terms of the substance of my disagreement in the discussion that was interrupted, I honestly think that it was a misunderstanding about the word “conspiracy” that would have been resolved in a couple of turns. In my view, the Israeli regime is publicly organizing the European fascists, so there is no “conspiracy”, it’s literally in the open. The conspiratorial framing only hurts the antizionist attack, because of its antisemitic roots. Before the mod intervened to gut the discussion, I was trying to clarify the language of “conspiracy” with the other user.
To summarize: I think the mod jumped the gun, being triggered by the word “antisemitism”. Yes, the Israeli propaganda machine uses the accusation of antisemitism as chaff, but that doesn’t mean we need to turn off our own critical thinking. We can freaking do better than give actual pro-Israeli apologists hooks to accuse the antizionist movement of antisemitism.
As a remedy, just lift the ban, for fuck’s sake.
EDIT: I’m unsure how the notifications work, but for full transparency, I have just sent the mod this DM, to let zir know that I started this thread:
If it is bad etiquette to send such a heads up via DM, I apologize and take responsibility.
EDIT2: Seems like some trolls and sock puppets have been brigading the thread and posting zionist shit and unacceptable language directed at the mod. I also see the mod locked the original thread due to some of those sock puppets spilling over to there. That’s all just shitty and toxic for any kind of nuanced discussion in our communities, as well as any kind of reasonable resolution to this mess. So stupid. I never meant this to spawn a freaking harassment campaign, this is so frustrating. Boo.
The far-right in Europe would indeed exist without outside help; Russia, Israel, and the U.S. have merely been financing it to support its growth as a means of destabilizing their governments and the EU. Far-right politicians are also then more likely to adopt policies favoring the sources of their funding.
Given that your comments clearly demonstrate that you’re not a zionist, I think this is just another case of the flotilla’s zionist alarm being a bit too sensitive.
Yeah, the far-right parties would exist without outside influence, but they would not be currently be as large as a threat to democracy and standing together as a united europe without the meddling of outsiders. These powers fear what would happen if europe would put their differences aside and work together for real - because Europe would become a powerhouse that would probably look a lot like the supremacy they projected during colonial times. The amount of freedom Europe offers is a direct threat to any autocratic government.
Agreed; Russia doesn’t want Europe to be a united front against its irredentist ambitions, while the U.S. doesn’t want Europe to be united independent of it. Both would rather see it divided and are funding efforts to that end.
20% of people are born inclined toward authority like fascism. They will pop up anywhere regardless of funding. I doubt they’d have the influence they do, though.
PTB, I don’t see how see how your comments can be described as ‘Zionist apologia’.
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Shroom is becoming kinda notorious for power trips like these, it’s not the first nor second nor third time this happens. At this point, communities they moderate should be just be avoided
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No, just a leftoid who has gone insane which is a common occurrence. Who really needs to be banned are accounts like yours whose whole purpose is to harass a single person, maybe instead of doing that you should check this wiki article out
I normally hate the “touch grass” thing because it’s turned into a horrible thing. But that was the best use of it I’ve seen in years lol.
Here’s the thing about some of these people: perpetuating the idea that being critical of the Israeli government or Zionism, is the same as anti-semitism, is in the Israeli government’s interests. It helps push the narrative that anyone who opposes the Netenyahu government is an anti-semite.
It wouldn’t surprise me if at least some supposedly pro-Palestinian voices are managed opposition. People who wittingly or most likely unwittingly are repeating narratives that serve Israeli interests, paint critics of Israel in a bad light, and serve to divide the opposition to Israel internationally.
For example, according to recent polling American Jews are quite critical of the Israeli government. American Jews are more likely than the average American to be critical of Netenyahu, more likely to think that the US is too supportive of Israeli, more likely to think that the US should support the Palestinians more, more likely to be in favour of the establishment of an independent Palestinian state, etc. etc. Who does it serve to alienate Jews in the US? You surely want the Jon Stewarts of this world to be on your side.
It’s a bit like an agent provocateur who tries to turn a peaceful protest violent, because it’ll allow the authorities to paint protesters as violent thugs and scare off reasonable average citizens from joining protests.
This being said, I assume most people being horrible and undermining the cause they claim to support, are simply complete and utter morons.
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No fewer than two new Lemmy accounts were created in the last three hours just to flood this post with hasbara.
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At least three accounts now.
The juxtaposition is glorious
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And before that maybe 3 just to attack mushroom
I saw that earlier. Thought it was super weird you got banned for what posting what was clearly criticism of Isreal. Looks like the mod has a hair trigger for any individual sentence that isn’t 100% “death to zionists.”
Looks like the mod has a hair trigger for any individual sentence that isn’t 100% “death to zionists.”
pretty much why i am not using this account much anymore. too many people take a good idea way too far. so that normal discussions start to fall apart.
I tend to favor evaluations in this community staying away from the original topic. This is one of those cases where it’s impossible to address without doing so.
I don’t think any reasonable person could read the comments presented and come out with the same take on their content. It was the opposite of apologia, and doesn’t get close enough to zionism to even shoot it in the ass, much less be confused with it.
As such, it would be at least mild PTB with comment removals only. But a ban under that reasoning? No way. Full PTB, and I would even argue that it’s severe enough that the mod in question may need to be removed from their position. I don’t think I’ve ever actually said that here before, about anyone. Thought it a couple of times, but never felt something met my inner threshold that I should say it.
This one? I’m not sure why the mod in question reached the conclusion they did, and I’m trying to wrap my head around it. I just can’t see it being for any acceptable reason. Even if it was a bad day and a misinterpretation, that’s still time to take a step away from moderation, even if temporary. That’s how severe of an overreaction and outright fabrication of cause this one is.
Ah, Fantastical Fungi, at it again.
So very surprised.
Yeah, not the first time ze popped up here. Drama loves zir.
s/he/ze/g s/him/zir/g
You can assess ze loves to induce drama without disrespect zir pronouns.I am extremely aware the German ref.
damn i forgot again, sorry, fixed. no disrespect meant.
Auf Deutsche: “sie Moderator”
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Respect people’s pronouns.
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I don’t acknowledge you.
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I fully agree with your stance. There is for sure large scale interference by various right-wing governments in europe, propping up the fascist parties in various countries and supplying them with money and propaganda. Obvious offenders are Israel, USA, Russia and to a lesser degree China, and i am sure there are more players out there.
Being antizionist does not have anything to do with antisemitism unless there is an amount of stupidity involved. Israel is playing this pretty well - since Judaism, Jews and Israel are a tight-knit unit, it’s hard for some people to separate Zionism from the bunch. That’s for example the issue hampering the reaction of the german government, that feels that they will get burnt regardless of the move they make if they take a stand against Zionism.
Why that Mod wasn’t able to follow your chain of thought is something i cannot understand. The only reasoning that makes the mod just human is that ze misread what you meant; every other reasoning makes zir look… pretty bad.
PTB for sure if your ban isn’t lifted.
The mod uses ze/zir pronouns, let’s respect that.
already fixed that before you replied, just saw it after looking over the post in case i missed something, which i did lol (finally saw it when skimming over the PM OP sent to MysticMushroom)
Great!
PTB, I don’t see any pro Zionist rhetoric and much less any trolling, thus no rule was broken. OP was clearly just exposing their arguments, and, agree or not with those arguments, they are fully within the community rules, so action against them seems unjustified.
I’m not going to “try to play chess with a pigeon”, just FYI I was not trolling, I was arguing in good faith
Name-calling is not ‘good faith’.
Are you referring to the “chess with a pigeon” phrase?
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Easy there with the death wishes and the slurs.
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“cunt” is
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Least fascist Zionist troll, whose upvotes come only from their own sock puppet accounts.
https://lemvotes.org/comment/futurology.today/comment/13234786
I also want to address some comments accusing @mysticmushroom1776@lemmy.dbzer0.com of being an anti-semite. I have, in another comment, said that I think that Ze’s mistaken in this moderation action given my read on what the user is trying to describe and explore. However, to describe this interpretation of the user’s posts as anti-semitic is to reduce the value of the term “anti-semitic.” When doing this you are doing the work of zionisms self definition of zionism and Jewish identity as being inherently linked by linking all presumptive interpretations toward anti-zionist thought and action to anti-semitism. It is possible for someone to misinterpret what someone is trying to say as being zionist thought without that being expressly anti-semitism.
caveat all of this is just one Jew (myself)'s perspective. So in conclusion:
Cut it the fuck out! Be nice to eachother! Fuck!
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I would need screenshots of exactly what the person said before I accuse someone of being an antisemite. especially in a world where the UK is jailing people as terrorists for wearing T-shirts against genocide. I don’t have a problem with people of Jewish faith, but you would have to be blind to not see the Israeli influences at play in most of the western world.
So if this person said things that directly related to ISRAELI meddling I would be inclined to believe them. While if it was general Jews=Bad obviously I would have a problem.
but frankly, there’s not much someone could say to me in any context that would allow me to support the current Israeli administration or their actions. And I’m happy to see anyone even trying to do so on my home-server being removed.
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You know,
First I appreciate the link. People will be able to draw their own conclusions and that’s good.
But I want to make a little digression.
I remember, about 5 years ago now, a time when I didn’t know anything about Israel. It was just…that place where where some Jewish people took pilgrimages. It was a historic place that I gave very little thought to.
And I remember sharing a smoke with a good friend of mine, someone who I consider to be a man of unimpeachable honor and kindness, and I can picture the very moment in my mind that I mentioned something in passing about Israel. It might have had something to do with the Depp trial at the time, I can’t recall.
but I can recall his face twisting into rage and babbling for 20 minutes about the country. A discussion I would later find to be mostly based on well-documented facts. This was well before October 7th mind you. I don’t even think I knew the meaning of the word ‘Zionist.’
Anyway. The point of my digression is this: My position on Israel was formed that day and it’s only ever gotten more firm as the years have passed.
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I don’t feel like reading everything, but this part feels worth pointing out
I think we got a bit of a misunderstanding with the meaning of the word “conspiracy”, with me taking the word literally and arguing that the framing of “conspiracy” is basically an antisemitic trope harkening to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
Do you really think there’s not literal conspiring going on, or are you using the word “literally” figuratively?
Not OP, but their point is that there is an open to influence (by Israel) that is being framed in the article as an antisemetic stereotype (Jews run the world conspiracy) in the article.
They seem to mean ‘literal’ conspiracy between the zionists and the European far right as in a secret coordinated effort. That doesn’t describe the actions in the article which are closer to influencing.
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