Prohibition only serves to empower organized crime and cops. We have been through this shit with booze and cannabis. We know better than this. Come on people.
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Plenty of opportunities for me on the black market then.
Morons.
I was thinking that too. I’m all for people quitting smoking, but this doesn’t seem lie the smart way to do it.
We shouldn’t ban cigarettes and vapes instead we should push people to healthier alternatives.
Like autoerotic asphyxiation.
All the rage these days. You even got the school yard pushers selling belts.
Like smorking
This is just going to make them cool as hell for kids???
Trust me I grew up with marijuana being illegal and somehow it made marijuana, the least edgey drug I have ever encountered, feel edgey and cool.
I think it was the back alley deals that made weed cool and the bit of camaraderie that comes along with the in-group baddies smoking weed.
Now you just go into a shop and there’s a 19+ year old trying to sell you the ultra super duper bubble gum thunder blitz hybrid with 91% THC that you smoke through the shatter bong. Feels like Vegas when you just want a Doobie.
What made weed cool was that weed was made illegal because of racism and was always cool… we are just addicted to the forms of racism that disappear when you look right at them more than we are willing to let ourselves have cool things.
Having watched my own parents die from smoking related illnesses, my father in law and sister in law succumb to lung cancer, it’s a shit way to go. Not something I want to watch or wish upon anyone.
As an ex smoker myself who hasn’t smoked in over 20 years, there are still days I think I’d like a smoke. It’s got a helluva mental hold on you.
Anything we can do to keep the next generation of kids to pick up this filthy habit is a win in my opinion. Stop them before they ever get the chance to start.
This may not be perfect, but at least it’s something.
And a great way to help stop cigarettes are vapes.
This. I know some people who have switched to vapes and have steadily reduced their nicotine to 0.
I used vapes to quit cigarettes and became more addicted to vaping than smoking. I could puff pretty much anywhere anytime. Nicotine pouches actually helped quit vaping though.
When are those people going to push for a ban on cars, specifically gas powered cars.
The health burden analysis indicated that TRAP from Canadian sources was associated with 1,200 premature deaths in Canada in 2015.
Non-fatal health outcomes included 2.7 million acute respiratory symptom days, 1.1 million restricted activity days and 210,000 asthma symptom days per year. The total annual monetary value of the health burden was estimated at $9.5 billion (CAD 2015), with $9 billion being associated with premature deaths.
To me this all seems a bit hypocrite and extreme. C’est de l’acharnement.
Well they haven’t officially cancelled this yet and I think we should keep reminding people of it: https://www.canada.ca/en/transport-canada/news/2021/06/building-a-green-economy-government-of-canada-to-require-100-of-car-and-passenger-truck-sales-be-zero-emission-by-2035-in-canada.html
It’s a start, but I’m a bit like those anti smoking people except for cars. I know it’s not realistic to ask everyone not to use cars and trucks so I can settle for electric vehicles with massive investments in public transit and bike lanes.
But if I wanted to go further, and also just to add information, cars and vehicles in general cannot be entirely zero emission. Even the tires and brakes of bicycles are emitting pollutants in the air and water. It’s one of the oversight about electric vehicles. In the last decade, we found out that tires are also emitting a lot of harmful shit that gets in the air and the water. The production of cars and tires are also producing harmful pollutants.
Tire Pollution May Threaten Human Health, Study Finds
Car tyres produce vastly more particle pollution than exhausts, tests show
So, only by the logic of “it’s never enough”, like people asking for a complete ban on smoking, I say electric vehicles are not enough and that we should ban all cars and trucks. (/s)
I can go on.
And that’s not counting animals, which are in the billion.
Parking spaces and parking lots are also not permeable and bad for the environment. They contribute to pollutant runoff and increase the heat island effect. Even their colour can have an impact.
So me it’s funny that smoking outside is banned in certain places, while people breathe in all those nice pollutants from the cars. Breathing in that “fresh air”, on a terrace next to the town’s main road.
We can go full in on banning smoking, to protect the health of everyone, smokers and non-smokers, while ignoring other obvious health hazards. In a way, electric cars are the vaping form of smoking. They claim to be better for the environment and/or healthier, but in reality, they still have other problems and issues.
Again, that’s why I think those anti smoking people are going too far. I’m “anti car” and understand very well that it’s impossible to just ban them.
Or like any other movements. I’m not vegan, but I usually avoid eating meat. I don’t prepare it myself. And I know the meat industry is a terrible blight on the environment. It may even be human health issue. So reducing our consumption should be a priority. But there’s still going to be some people that will want to over consume red meat. Just as there’s going to be some people that want to smoke. Yes, it has collective impacts. Yes, it should be reduced as much as possible, but banning things, even gas powered cars, or smoking, is extreme and goes too far.
regulatory hubris will only strengthen the black market.
personally I am actually FOR this as I want my dual nicotine/thc vapes ASAP. the black market always provides. and I dont give a fuck what your opinion is on this.
Should have been illegalized in the 20th century.
I agree with prohibition.
However, I know this incentivises the black market. The middle ground I would be OK with is the crown monopolies model in them like LCBO, not now where you can get it at any store.
not now where you can get it at any store.
Please understand, a carton at any store cost north of $200. Drive 1 hour from any major town an you can buy a carton for less than $50 at the rez.
While the majority of the tobacco is illegally sourced through the HA. First Nations Peoples in Canada have asserted their right to produce and sell tobacco. RCMP enforcement has only succeeded in pushing sales to further from major city centers.
Basically restricting locations will just drive more people towards the already flourishing black market supply chain.
I know there are punitive taxes ( punitive to discourage people ) on tobacco products in store hence the high price tag. The reason I would still prefer to restrict it to the crown monopolies is to restrict commercial entities from profiting at all from it.
We are going the opposite way for alcohol (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-beer-wine-convenience-corner-stores-doug-ford-1.7055737 ). We already have LCBO, we have OLG, we have OCS ( though it was purposely nerfed).
Why is there a need for private entities to distribute it? The LCBO model works, why not use the same for tobacco. Does LBCO push people to black market alcohol?
Not very familiar with First Nations’ jurisdiction on this. But from your comment that there are people who would still skirt the law even if it legal. Well it is their problem, and when they break the law, they should face the consequences. We do not need to make every black market activity legal. What I find reasonable is to provide a pathway for these substances to be bought with large disincentives to heavy discourage it.
What is your line between heavy discouragement and the black market? There is already a black market for pirated software and copyrighted material. Many justified and many others unjustified. The existence of a black market, in and of itself, does not justify the need to relax or remove regulation or legislation.
Edibles are pretty nice
I’m confused. If smoking is bad for you because it clogs up the blood vessels in the lungs with tar and reduces oxygen to the body, and with 500 or so chemicals added to the equation. Why is vaping ok when, in fact, it has as many chemicals and does the same amount of harm to your body? Make it totally illegal for dumb people who don’t realize this.
Here is an extra bit of wisdom: we all know we’re going to die one day; what we should worry about is “How you’re going to die.”Because teaching temperance takes too long. And regulate the companies is too much of a hassle.
We already do both. This is prohibition. This is dry laws for tobacco.
Not enough. Most people simply ignore tobacco as a substance and do not talk with their children, family and friends about it. It is addictive, it is dangerous for health but it should never be banned as it is being attempted on several countries.
Tobacco should be treated as a luxury, an indulgence, not something to label as a drug and criminalize. As you state and very well: this is prohibition. Puritanism never works and this will not be an exception.
Its part of school curricula, and there is a ban on advertising and it is now seen in film a lot less and you cannot smoke indoors. You have to ho outside to smoke. And tobacco products are locked in a case and you have to ask the cashier to get it.
I don’t see how much more can be mandated through legislation. I would be OK with an LCBO model. But after that, it’s prohibition
Prohibition doesn’t work because there will always be some people would still do it anyway. The goal should be to get to as close to elimination as possible.
This is not like small pox where it can be eradicated. Behaviours cannot be eradicated because people do the behaviour. You’d have to make it impossible for people to do the behaviour to eliminate it. But since we can’t change biology, the next best thing would heavily enforced prohibition and since that is impossible, make the activity extremely inconvenient.
I have a couple of ideas.
First would be making tobacco a specialty item, to be sold solely on specialty shops. Take it out of the supermarkets, convenience stores, gas stations, etc. Put it in an enclosed, reserved space, with knowledgeable people behind the counter to actually teach a customer on tobacco and smoking and we have a start.
Second would be to end specific tobacco blends that invite to grab a cigarette after another. I work around smokers and the more conscious ones mention there are such blends, while others satisfy after just one, whatever that may mean.
Third measure would be to make tobacco expensive and perhaps even cap the price. I worked with a person that said he’d quit the day a pack cost 10€. We’ve been farther from that but the cheapest pack available on the market is 5,5€ which is cheaper than the average pack was when I had that talk with my coworker. Twenty years back. I wonder how the companies manage to put such cheap product on the market today and not then.
Next would be to move the culture forward and bring back the notion of smoking as an indulgence and not an escape. My country, in the 60’s and 70’s, during a civil war, dispensed cigarette packs to soldiers where it was stamped “Have a cigar and relax.” It did wonders to boosts the tobacco consumption in the country. Previously it was mostly confined to more afluent people, who would usually smoke the pipe or high quality cigars, which is a better form of tobacco.
And where is tobacco a part of curriculum?
Again, I agree with your first point. Hence I like the LCBO model ( Government owned and run store , it also adds to the budget ).
You mentioned civil war, not sure which country you’re from. Greece? Portugal? Former Yugoslavia?
Second would be to end specific tobacco blends that invite to grab a cigarette after another. I work around smokers and the more conscious ones mention there are such blends, while others satisfy after just one, whatever that may mean.
I like this second point a lot. One of the issues I have with the current government structures is that what we do is this: People -> MPs -> select Government -> select Finance Minister -> interacts with LCBO. I would be perfectly OK with people who drink to elect people to the board of LCBO (Liquor Control Board of Ontario), weed for OCS (Ontario Cannabis Store), and the equivalent one that would be for the tobacco one to get their voices heard. There should be people who represent people who don’t do those things on the boards as well to represent their interests. But this second point highlights why the people who use and make the products should take a charge in creating their experience and have customers and non-customers regulate their experience.
Well the advance of manufacturing is probably a key role in reducing the price, the same as in every industry. Hence the need of punitive taxes to discourage starting and staying (as your coworker shows).
I agree, this is a cultural change. This is a Canadian forum. We are heavily influenced by the US. US and Canadian media became really anti smoking in the 90s-2000s.
I am from Ontario, Canada.
Addictive substance abuse is taught in Grade 5 ( age 10-11 ) toward the end of the year. There is a whole unit on it. At the end of the year, there is also a unit on puberty. Then we get taught them again through the teenage years in physical education classes. Mandatory phys-ed ends at Grade 9 ( age 14-15 ).
The portion of the Ontario, Canada curriculum that talks about addictive substance is found in Ontario Curriculum standard Grade 5 Standards Healthy Living section D1.2 , D2.3 , and D3.3 . Found here ( link: https://www.dcp.edu.gov.on.ca/en/curriculum/elementary-health-and-physical-education/grades/grade-5/strands#healthy-living )
