At the moment the internet is flawed, do you think the fediverse is the solution?

  • sunaurus ( sunaurus@lemm.ee ) 
    52·
    3 years ago

    Probably not replace, but certainly it could be a viable and thriving part of the picture. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with having options.

  • Alkalyon ( Alkalyon@lemmy.ml ) 
    47·
    3 years ago

    I expect good and insightful conversations to be moved here.

    Reddit is about to become like twitter and facebook where it’s ad-ridden, toxicity cesspool.

    People will leave to keep having the actual forum experience and will eventually move here as it looks like a very good alternative.

  • Sean Tilley ( deadsuperhero@lemmy.ml ) 
    24·
    3 years ago

    The various people who work on the fediverse are all doing it for fundamentally different goals, solving different problems, and building different things for different people. It just so happens that, more often than not, a lot of our stuff works together now thanks to the hard efforts put forward by people who cared about interoperability.

    I personally believe that the fediverse will kill traditional social media platforms. Because if you can just communicate around a walled garden, what’s the point or value in staying in one?

    I think we still have a long way to go in terms of usability and design. Those things, along with marketing, remain pretty steep barriers to adoption by people who are unfamiliar with it. There are also a lot of capital-H Hard problems that need to be sorted out down the road, like better filtering and moderation tools, and more robust controls for privacy. I have a feeling we’ll get there, but only through hard work and collaboration.

    I guess a different way of understanding things is that, the fediverse might not kill the competition outright, but it has the potential to outlast them as something better. And hopefully someday, it’ll be as ubiquitous and ordinary as email.

    • 777 ( 777@lemmy.ml ) 
      3·
      3 years ago

      Because if you can just communicate around a walled garden, what’s the point or value in staying in one?

      Because people are happy with that garden and don’t think about others. Please remember that your average internet user doesn’t really know what an API is, or understand about open standards, they just want to find some content that matches their interests, upvote and share said content with their friends who are also inside that garden.

      This average user isn’t a bad person, stupid or naiive, they just have other things going on in their lives and the internet is a small part of it. They use it, take what they want from it and move on, and there are so many more of those people than you.

      People who switch from iOS to Android report losing friends who were on iMessage and are unwilling to move to something platform agnostic such as Signal or WhatsApp. I wouldn’t underestimate the walled garden effect.

    • SkyNTP ( SkyNTP@lemmy.ml ) 
      8·
      3 years ago

      “Servers? Instances? Is this a place to connect with my friends or a goddamn server room?”

      That’s not a property of of federation (see email and websites) it’s just because early adopters are a little wired. In any new social phenomenon, it takes a second wave of adopters (first wave of followers) to bridge the wierdos from the masses.

      Cue this classic study in leadership: https://youtu.be/hO8MwBZl-Vc be the first one to follow the wierdos and show the masses it’s cool.

    • gredo ( gredo@lemmy.world ) 
      4·
      3 years ago

      But couldn’t it be made easier? Who cares which server a community or a user is registered on. I register where a friend sent me the link to and from there on it shouldn’t matter and could be handled in the background.

      The big sites are also not one central instance. They have several distributed instances all managed by the same company.

      • interdimensionalmeme ( interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml ) 
        9·
        3 years ago

        Future instance owners and moderators don’t want users and communities to be able to migrate seamlessly. Mastodon has the same fatal flaw. They want to keep your history and relationships hostage so you can’t leave. This is the only thing turns signup to Lemmy and Mastodon into an important decision you don’t want to get wrong. That’s why you have to read and read and read before signing up and be a Lemmy expert before choosing the right instance for you.

        Of course by this time 99% of users have gone back to Reddit. And the 1% that stays still feels like a huge wave.

        Also many elitists are happy signup is clunky, it filters out the rif raf and the common Joe. It creates an exclusive space where everyone uses Linux, loves anime and don’t like sports.

        A place with no cultural relevance ree from eternal September.

        • gredo ( gredo@lemmy.world ) 
          7·
          3 years ago

          Well there’s also techies who don’t (only) use Linux and like (some) sports. More of a Sci-Fi and Comic Book guy than anime here.

          Let’s see how this grows.

        • KelsonV Old Account ( KelsonV@lemmy.ml ) English
          6·
          3 years ago

          Mastodon has the same fatal flaw. They want to keep your history and relationships hostage so you can’t leave.

          You can migrate your relationships to a new Mastodon server.

          And while you can’t directly transfer the history (the debate over how/whether to do this has gone on for literally years), you can export an archive you can keep locally, and there are tools out there to parse it and convert it to some other form (static website, whatever). Someone’s probably written an importer by now, though I’d have to look.

        • bitsplease ( bitsplease@lemmy.ml ) 
          5·
          3 years ago

          Future instance owners and moderators don’t want users and communities to be able to migrate seamlessly. Mastodon has the same fatal flaw

          This is misrepresentative for a few ways.

          For one, you can in fact migrate your mastadon account, fairly easily in fact.

          For another thing, instance owners and moderators don’t really get to choose whether migration is possible, the code contributors do. I suppose instance owners could start forking their own version of lemmy to make that harder, but ultimately there will always be folks willing to host the “best” version, and so people will just leave

    • Rick ( howdy@thesimplecorner.org ) 
      3·
      3 years ago

      I agree. It’s been fun and challenging to learn even just as a user. I work in tech and it is a lot of concepts to grasp and understand. So much potential though!

    • Umbrias ( Umbrias@beehaw.org ) 
      3·
      3 years ago

      People said that about reddit, I don’t think Lemmy is anywhere near being too complex for the average user. More that social medias generally favor simplicity because simplicity is easy to control, modify, and generally nudge from a developer side trying to guarantee a very specific use case that generates money, rather than just naturally occurring social systems.

      Let’s be real, humans have been dealing with social networks far more complex, systems more complex, for almost all of human history. The sheer volume of people, no, but the actual processes of interaction, yes.

    • kiwi ( kiwi@kale.social ) English
      10·
      3 years ago

      Thanks for this insightful post. I agree that the fediverse feels different and that’s ok. It’s exciting to get the chance to build something new and be a part of it starting.

    • jursed ( jursed@beehaw.org ) English
      3·
      3 years ago

      yeah I definetly agree. specifically because of the lack of algorithms or profit motives it won’t be " addictive " nor as easy as traditional social media to find what I’m most likely to engage in. but it also means ragebait is less likely to be pushed to me, and for that, its actually quite fine…

      im quite sick of the “few big websites” that the internet has become. I miss when there were a greater variety of forums, blogs and places to hang out, only supported through people’s passions. and it seems to me federation goes back to those old times.

    • BurningnnTree ( BurningnnTree@lemmy.one ) English
      2·
      3 years ago

      Great insight. I agree that the fediverse will never be anywhere near as big as mainstream social media, but I’m hoping it will continue to grow and be recognized as a valid alternative.

      Personally I think of the fediverse as like diet social media. Just like how people switch from Coke to Diet Coke to avoid sugar, people can switch from Twitter to Mastodon to avoid recommendation algorithms and overly-stimulating content. At least that’s why I joined the fediverse. I know most people love algorithms and endless content (hence why Tik Tok is so huge) but for those of us who want something less stimulating, I’m glad that the fediverse exists as an alternative. As long as the fediverse is big enough to be enjoyable, but not so big that it becomes super addictive, that’s good enough for me.

  • Gil (he/they) ( kalanggam@beehaw.org ) 
    19·
    3 years ago

    Personally, I don’t think replacement should be the goal. As others have said, a better, more likely outcome is that the Fediverse become a viable alternative to big social media (in the eyes of the public) & an influential part of the ecosystem.

    And anyways, the Fediverse is a solution for me - and others, presumably - but it probably won’t be the solution for social media influencers, terminally online political provocateurs, people stuck in the endless, algorithmic (and psychologically manipulative) stream of ‘content’ which Big Social offers, advertisers, etc. As long as people have those sorts of relationships to social media and as long as capitalism and consumerism exist, big social media platforms will always be around to capitalize on that and fill that niche.

    Plus, the barrier to entry for the Fediverse is technical skill, which has impeded its accessibility to the broader public. While making the Fediverse more accessible and cultivating that technical skill and know-how in the public are both things I support, I appreciate the more intentional social media communities which are forming around here and are able to grow sustainably quite possibly because it’s harder for the average person to wrap their head around. It reminds me a lot of the older days of the internet.

    The best thing for that, IMO, is for the Fediverse to continually exist in its decentralized state and provide unique examples of how social media could be, for it to keep growing slowly, for average people to come here of their own volition, see how things are here, and decide on their own that they want to be part of it.

    • Pickled-Pizza ( Pickled-Pizza@kbin.social ) 
      2·
      3 years ago

      I’m new to the fediverse. My biggest gripe about big social media, is that the signal to noise ratio (SNR) is very low. My hope is that since this isn’t a solution for the folks you mentioned, that the SNR will be much higher here.

    • iNeedScissors67 ( iNeedScissors67@kbin.social ) 
      16·
      3 years ago

      I mean yeah, that’s me. I’m just a regular guy, but since reddit decided to screw up in the worst ways possible, I need an alternative. I don’t fully understand the fediverse but I’m going to make an attempt to use kbin and see how it goes.

    • Dead Gemini ( DeadGemini@ohai.social ) 
      7·
      3 years ago

      That’s just because they haven’t been taught about it yet. Once it catches on more (Twitter and Reddit refugees, Meta app) it’ll become more widely understood and more people will start using it. Once you understand the point of the Fediverse, using it isn’t a whole lot harder than any other social media.

      • Banana ( Banana@kbin.social ) 
        4·
        3 years ago

        I don’t know you overestimate people, I think if the Fediverse will succeed its gotta be dumbed down a lot more for people and made seemless so it works without them having to think about the various instances as much.

        • Dead Gemini ( DeadGemini@ohai.social ) 
          2·
          3 years ago

          They don’t really HAVE to think about the various instances imo. They just need to join one, that’s it. Following users/communities from other instances isn’t hard to wrap your head around, you just follow them. badda-bing badda-boom. The @instance.whatever bit of their username barely matters. You just say “that’s like a URL to find that user on a different instance than the one you chose”. People arent as stupid as you might think, they just need someone patient enough to explain.

  • vipaal  ( vipaal@feddit.de ) 
    18·
    3 years ago

    Fediverse will go through what Linux went through. Be seen by businesses as an existential threat. Then face FUD and EEE campaign.

    One day, likely earlier than Linux witnessed the rise of RedHat, Google, Facebook as prominent businesses that became poster children for Linux, new or existing businesses could be built around and/or on fediverse. They may as well come together to form an ActivityPub foundation similar to the Linux Foundation for all we know.

    Email went through similar trajectory too. SMTP, IMAP, pop are are open protocols. Yet we have a sort of oligopoly on email.

    Similar to how Windows did not die away because Linux came along, existing social networks may remain in existence. The availability of fediverse as an alternative would keep them busy

  • Nathan Campos ( nathanpc@lemmy.ml ) 
    17·
    3 years ago

    For most of the users currently online it’s extremely difficult to understand the concept of federation and how everything works, so I doubt it’ll ever be as prevalent as “the big social media platforms”, but for technically-inclined users, it’ll definitely have at least moderate success.

    • Gevian ( Gevian@feddit.de ) 
      9·
      3 years ago

      I believe that’s the point: Coming from Reddit, I don’t understand what Mastodon (yes, I thought it is something similar!), Fediverse, Lemmy.ml and feddit are, have in common or where the differences are.

      And furthermore: Why should I care?

      I think it will be hard to convince a significant number of people to come here and STAY.

      I hope I’m wrong. I just created my first community :-)

  • Wizzy ( wizzy@lemmy.ml ) 
    15·
    3 years ago

    IMHO these are fundamentally different concepts. Popular social media is made popular by pushing curated ‘engaging’ content, rather than organic content, to monetize gullible users. It has become an entertainment venue, giving their audience a steady stream of what they want them to see, even if by force. Popular “Social Media” has rapidly devolved into a real-life MST3K. Users feel betrayed that the sites no longer feel like the social experience/experiment they wanted… but are users really wanting to leave, or just switch to voice outrage?

    Alternatively, the fediverse doesn’t appeal to those wanting force fed entertainment, or seeking viral fame amongst family/friends, and outraged users will complain it doesn’t function like so-and-so site, or work ‘their way’. It is more technical and takes more proactive actions to engage with others, which is a positive thing.

    Users think they can switch from Coke to Pepsi, but the fediverse is more of a mixed drink with some extra bourbon.

    Could it / should it replace popular social media? Probably not, unless more mindsets change over what a social media experience should be… but it can fill a growing gap as this happens (which will in-turn improve features & development).

    • Umbrias ( Umbrias@beehaw.org ) 
      4·
      3 years ago

      I would say, if in theory a social media achieved a small community, informative and positive culture which avoided spreading misinformation or cultivating harmful stereotypes of those they disagree with via the mechanisms of that social media, that it should be more standardized and more widely accepted. Largely because that is just more healthy in general. Not that Lemmy will necessarily be that in practice in the long run.

  • Phantom_Engineer ( Phantom_Engineer@lemmy.ml ) 
    13·
    3 years ago

    Long term, the Fediverse is the way forward, but social media has staying power even if it dimishes from what it was. It will ages before the Fediverse replaces centralized social media, but I think it will slowly happen.

    • Justin ( jlh@lemmy.jlh.name ) 
      6·
      3 years ago

      I saw a comparison here between the Fediverse and other federated services like emails and POTS. I think there are a lot of similarities, but if that’s true, the Fediverse still has a long way to go before it matures like traditional federated services like email. Things like spamlists and increased interoperability will be needed eventually.

      At least in the short-term, I think Lemmy has a good base here to take over from Reddit, and the increased focus will help the Fediverse mature further. Lemmy won’t be another Voat.

      • Phantom_Engineer ( Phantom_Engineer@lemmy.ml ) 
        5·
        3 years ago

        Oh yeah, definitely not. FOSS combined with federation means that even if the main instance and dev team are toast, someone else could pick up where they left off and run with it. Lemmy doesn’t necessarily need Lemmy.ml to function, which you couldn’t say about voat (or Reddit, for that matter.)

  • Matthieu ( matthieu_xyz@piaille.fr ) 
    13·
    3 years ago

    @Bicyclejohn I don’t know about “replace”, but popular social media could JOIN the fediverse.

    I don’t blame new users to be late on news. But to make a quick recap, the people interested in implementing ActivityPub include:

    - Meta (insta/twt replacement)
    - Tumblr
    - Wordpress.com
    - Medium (currently only running mastodon)
    - Discourse
    - Flarum

    Last time I check those were a few popular social media.

    Discourse and Flarum in particular are relevant to Lemmy