Even if you think what you would say is obvious, please add. This is genuinely something I think makes sense regarding local bus routes given the longevity of light rail and how infrequently routes change, but I also suffer from confirmation bias, so I’m hoping for reasons this would be a terrible idea but obviously would prefer reasons it would be an even more amazing idea than I thought.

    •  h14h   ( @h14h@midwest.social ) 
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      151 year ago

      This.

      I think of buses as the caterpillar to a tram’s butterfly.

      You can start with a comprehensive bus network, and as a particular route stabilizes and the bus starts struggling to meet throughput needs, that is an indicator that a tram may be worthwhile.

      Starting w/ a tram line is a pretty big financial bet that it will be useful/needed, as once you build it, you’re locked-in to that specific route.

    • Buses for longer journeys make sense. We have a bunch of buses in London that run from the city centre out towards the green belt. Buses for those especially long journeys makes sense.

  • There’s pros and cons of buses vs trams.

    The pros that I’d slate for trams do include a better ride, more throughput (carries more people), wholly electric, are more durable than busses, and very quiet in general. People in this thread have noted most of these already, but the one that I feel is very overlooked is that they’re a commitment by the city along their routes. Many people will note that busses have advantages because their routes are easier to change. While true, I feel it’s actually worth considering that this is also a negative from the perspective of anyone who wants to invest in property that relies upon the bus route. If you can’t trust that the city won’t just up and move the bus stop away from your shop or apartment complex, you’ll be more reluctant to invest in the location. Trams are indeed much harder to change, but that’s actually a good thing from the perspective of investors. If I’m going to invest millions of dollars in an apartment complex, would I rather do it next to a bus stop that might not be there next year, or a tram stop that’s really hard to move away?

    Another advantage is how well the tram integrates with pedestrians. Busses are only as accurate as the driver. As a pedestrian, I have to pay attention to every bus just as I would cars on the road. They’re dangerous to be around. Trams are much more predictable (see: rails) so they can be used in/around public squares, markets, and along walkways with more safety for the people walking nearby. The rails themselves also show you where the transit is. Bus routes are invisible except for the stops and when you see the busses go by. When I’m walking in a city that has railed transit, I love seeing the rails because I know that I likely follow them to the next stop, and that by stops there will be shops, stores, and interesting places. They’re a guide to the best places in the city even if I can’t see the tram at that exact moment.

    Trams are also usually larger inside. There’s more room for wheelchairs, bicycles, and other mobility aids. They’re a better conveyance for people who need the room. Those same people also need to pick where they live carefully so that their transit won’t up and change on them. Having the bus stop move a block away could be a huge hurdle for their daily mobility needs.

    Railed transit provides a permanency and a more equitable transit solution for a city. It’s not the right solution in every instance, but as a city grows it needs to start investing in railed transit. Those rails provide the bones of where growth will centralize around giving the city focus and then identity as neighborhoods grow around tram/light rail stops. There’s a power to railed transit that busses just don’t provide in their stability, visibility, and statement of commitment to the longevity that a city should be investing in.

    Also, look up grassy tram lines. That’s peak urbanism!

      • I’d seen quite a few pictures and video of them, but the first ones I actually got to walk around and ride on were in Heidelberg in Germany. The north lines (5, 21, 24, 26) have grassy tram sections.

    • I mostly agree with you that trams are generally better, but we need to point out that bus stations are not placed randomly on the map. If an appartment complex gets build somewhere, a bus station will also appear next to it, probably faster than rail transport (assuming whichever organism in charge is competent, and that there is discussion between them and the users). Busses are better suited places with less trafic and fast to put in place. Trams are good long term and better for pedestrians. (and a lot cooler and more comforable)

  • Light rail is infinitely more expensive to construct and it only takes one delay/accident and all subsequent trains after cause a log jam…vs a bus which can route around it.

    A better solution uses corridors dedicated to buses that are electric powered.

    Something like this was done in Colombia with these routes being connected by ground hubs, similar to subway stations.

    •  yA3xAKQMbq   ( @yA3xAKQMbq@lemm.ee ) 
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      1 year ago

      That’s like saying a ship is more expensive than a car. It depends.

      A tram is not „infinitely“ (what absurd statement is that anyway) more expensive than a bus.

      Construction cost is not everything, and they’re not even that much higher, you also need to consider service life (much longer with trains), energy cost per passenger mile (much lower with trains thanks to the lower resistance), etc.

      What is best is always depending on the specific circumstances.

      The biggest limitation of buses is capacity, and a highly used tram is cheaper per passenger mile than a bus. Try replacing the S-Bahn in Berlin with BRT, see how far that gets you. You’d probably need to bulldoze a new highway… speaking of which:

      Germany is actually hellbent on building a highway right through its capital Berlin, which currently clocks in at 700 milion € for 3.2 km. I expect the whole thing to end at ~2 bn € for ~7 km.

      So I think the costs of public transport are really not the issue people should be focusing on.

      • You wouldn’t even have to go for the “replacing the S-Bahn” to show how ludicrous a BRT is as a suggestion, unless you’re not paying the constructors and drivers a living wage, which is why it makes sense in say Colombia and not in Germany…just think about replacing the M-lines of Berlin tramways with a BRT. It would have to be couple meters wider, would be terribly unreliable and inefficient, not to speak of noisy and bumpy. Now who would want to have that? Not to mention how much the upkeep of two lanes of dedicated BRT costs vs. maintenance of steel on steel rails and catenary. (Most of the time you’d find the latter to be cheaper.) In Helsinki, Finland we are currently waiting for a new tram/light rail option to replace a bus service that should have been a modern tram/light rail line in the first place: https://raidejokeri.info/en/ In the neighbour municipality Vantaa some parties were trying to push for a BRT option but the independent research suggested light rail/tram option to be the best and this is what was chosen: https://www.vantaa.fi/en/housing-and-environment/traffic-and-transport/vantaa-light-rail (they call it light rail but in some ways it’s also reasonable to call it a tram)

    •  nbailey   ( @nbailey@lemmy.ca ) 
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      131 year ago

      Electric busses are actually a lot more complex logistically than electric trains. With a train, you just need a bunch of big-ass transformers and overhead wires. Expensive to install, but very reliable and relatively low maintenance over many years.

      Batteries on the other hand are heavy, relatively fragile, degrade quickly, and very expensive. With a 100KWh EV, about 1/3 of the total cost is the battery, so it would likewise increase the cost of a bus.

      Charging is another problem, instead of the whole system using energy real-time, you now need a distribution system that can take hundreds of busses at night and charge them all back up, requiring a massive amount of power in a somewhat short time. While it’s nice that energy is generally cheaper at night, you still need the infrastructure that can take that load.

      So, it’s not to say that there’s no place for them, just that our main focus needs to be on rail in most places. There are lots of low-density places with cheap power and temperate weather that absolutely need BEV busses, but a lot more with challenging weather, older grids, and medium density that are a better fit for rail.

    • Yes, we certainly can route around it, but having lived in London for most of my life, I can tell you that we seldom route around it. However given the capacity that light railway how. If we keep the vehicles moving on the main arteries, we can move more people alleviating the frustration.

    • This is a common misbelief. Trams and light rail usually have points where the units can go around if one unit has derailed, unless the unit has tipped over, which in itself is very very rare. Good planning is crucial. “A better solution uses corridors dedicated to buses that are electric powered.” Nope, nope, nope. You have to present arguments to this claim, maybe then I can be bothered to counterargument such nonsense.

  •  fknidk   ( @echo@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) 
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    1 year ago

    Probably biassed as I’m a bus driver but the city I’m in has a tram and it’s fantastic until one gets blocked or broken. Benefit of busses is they can detour if needed, and if one breaks it doesn’t (always) block the entire route

    edit: extra annoying when they break down and I have to carry a tram load of passengers on one double decker bus

  • We tried in Denmark (Aarhus). Quite expensive, and too many issues. Electrical busses (with dedicated lanes) seems like the better solution, bus but this is also not cheap.

    Edit: Spelling

  • Busses have their uses. Lots of commentor have mentioned the flexibility in setting up / changing routes. But there’s also the flexibility in sizes. You can start a line with a large van or small mini bus and your only overhead is the driver. From there you can scale that up according to demand up to frequently run articulated busses. Meanwhile your minimum investment for tram includes at the very least a not inexpensive track installation.

    Don’t get me wrong. If you have the passenger volume that investment definitely pays off. But I don’t like this unnecessary competition between two modes of transport that can be very complimentary to each other and are both better than individual cars.

            • Many people aren’t, which is why so many of these discussions have very muddled conversations in places.

              Trams (Streetcars in the US) usually run on rails on the main roads. They might have some parts off the road, or have priority at intersections so that they’re faster than blocked up traffic. Trams are usually designed to service the last mile problem so they go right through neighborhoods and commercial districts with stops about every 200-600m.

              Light rail (Metro trains, S-Bahn) and subways (U-Bahn, London Underground) are larger trains that are usually grade separated (not on the road with the cars). They can run underground or on elevated rails above the roads too. They’re very similar to Trams, but are larger, faster, and usually designed to move more people longer distances. Their stops are usually more like every 600m-1800m apart.

              Why have a distinction between these? Mostly because they do serve very different roles in the city. Their distinction is most visible once you leave the core downtown area. In the core, they both have a tendency to stop more often so they look similar. Once you leave downtown, the light rail starts booking it long and fast while the trams keep trying to stop every few blocks.

            •  BarqsHasBite   ( @someguy3@lemmy.ca ) 
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              Nope. A light rail has its own dedicated right of way.

              An idiot can buy a light rail car and use it as a streetcar in mixed traffic, but then it’s call it, wait for it, a streetcar.

  • With the caveat that this only applies to my city, San Francisco… I prefer buses. SF horribly mismanages its “trams”* where they run at ground level through the streets. They must follow all stop signs and traffic rules. They don’t even get signal priority. So it’s a quite jarring experience to get into a train underground, exit the tunnel to the street, and begin stopping every block and waiting at red lights.

    Fact of the matter is that, if you’re going to be treated like a car, it’s better to be more maneuverable as a bus. Buses can avoid double parked cars, and have a fighting chance of squeezing through a gridlocked intersection. With a bus lane, they can use it but they don’t have to, where’s trams are trapped in a traffic lane (frequently the centermost lane) while idiots make (frequently illegal) left turns.

    * Muni light rail - K, J, L, M, N, T, F

    • While this is a point about implementation/regulation, and not about trams in general, it is an important point to make.

      In my city of Hamburg, Germany, Iearned to avoid buses. Too often they get slowed down by traffic jams, which makes them late and unreliable.

      Dedicated bus lanes, separated from cars, would solve the problem. Until they don’t have that, the U-Bahn and S-Bahn (which run on rails separated from traffic, underground or above street level) are my clear favorites.

      A city which prioritizes public transit, would/could give street level trams priority at traffic lights, and maybe even disallow cars from using the tracks as a normal lane.

    • But isn’t it a case that our governments keep pushing austerity and thus our infrastructure doesn’t improve thus do things like run shitty services. The outlay is more expensive, but no one has ever said a light railway doesn’t pay for itself.

        • I want to know when the cars on the roads will have to turn a profit on a per-trip basis. People seem to demand that public transit be profitable for some insane reason, but in general never ask the cars pay their own way around town.

          Both the roads and mass transit are services, just like the post office and the military. They’re costs of having civilization, not some kind of business enterprise the government is undertaking.

            • That I don’t know, but I assume there’s at least a few models doing that calculation. It’s hard to be accurate as your impact scale goes outward, but I can assure you it’s not going to look good for gas powered cars on the global scale calculations. They’re really hard on the planet and the people around them.

          • Both the roads and mass transit are services, just like the post office and the military. They’re costs of having civilization, not some kind of business enterprise the government is undertaking.

            Kind of depends on how you look at it… If you consider that the government’s ultimate goal is to grow the economy so that it can collect more tax revenue, then the entire country is the government’s enterprise. Improving the enterprise’s infrastructure would seem like an obviously beneficial expenditure.

            It’s more abstract, but the real question is whether spending more tax money on mass transit would benefit society more than if the money were spent on something else.

  •  kbity   ( @kbity@kbin.social ) 
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    The busiest core routes should be served with light rail, allowing an efficient high-frequency service for the most common journeys, and most parts of a city should ideally have some kind of connection to that rail system within a kilometre or two. But you can’t just put rails and stations literally everywhere, so buses (or trolleybuses with batteries if you’re so inclined) remain useful for less common routes, gaps between stations, the neighbouring areas of rail routes or last-mile connections from light rail to within a short walk of a person’s final destination.

    Buses are also necessary as a fallback during maintenance or unforeseen closures on the rail network. Even if it’s just a temporary station closure, that one station will likely be the only one in walking distance for quite a few people (especially if we’re talking about an interurban network where a small, outlying town or village might only have one station connecting it to the rest of its metro area), whereas that same area could have several bus stops, giving pretty much everyone there a way to continue getting around, perhaps even to get a bus to neighbouring stations.

    And bus routes don’t change that infrequently. Certainly, not infrequently enough that you’d want to tie them to placing or removing fixed infrastructure like tracks or wires. Diversions also happen sometimes. All of this isn’t to argue against light rail, but to argue for a comprehensive multi-modal vision of public transport. Let passengers use the right combination of services for their particular journey’s needs.

  • Tramways and Light Rails are much more silent and comfortable. Rails are smooth, no pothole etc. They are also much much more durable than asphalt.

    Rails take less space and can be covered with grass/greeneries. Looks prettier and absorb heat.

    • Tramways and Light Rails are much more silent

      From inside, maybe? Berlin, where I live, has lots of trams all over the city. I admit I rarely use them as I much prefer my bicycle, but they are seriously noisy. During the day the noise is somewhat lost in the general cacophony of city life, but in the evenings you can hear them rattling and crashing along from streets away. And if you live on a road with a tramline, you just have to accept this horrible metal-on-metal screeching and rattling at almost all hours.

  • Trams are the cosiest things to sit in. I enjoy being half asleep in the morning and just look at all the people being busy. Wish my town had some more grassy lines, but they don’t lack on where you can go.

    (edit: I want to add that I am also happy with the buses here, don’t think there is a reason to be either or and rather focus on reducing cars in town and in its suburbs. Obviously easier to do for smaller towns).

  • It depends on the type of light rail.

    Here in my city the trams share some of the roads with regular traffic, which not only means they can get caught in traffic (though they have priority where possible), but it also means the rails become a real tripping hazard for cyclists (over 800 injuries since 2015 at the last count). There’s been an active campaign to introduce more safety measures but the council has been reluctant to do anything about it.

    The tramlines are such a well-known hazard to locals that they actually put people off from cycling, which is surely counter-productive.

    • Are these the indented rails? Those will throw you off your bike instantly… Cycling lanes AND tramlines can coexist, but I guess the problem here is when you want to take a turn and the rails are in the middle of the road, so you’re forced to just go over them? I guess they could implement some kind of underpass for cyclists and pedestrians.

      •  tavu   ( @tavu@sopuli.xyz ) 
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        Having wider tyres ~2"/50mm or so pretty much eliminates the risk (and gives a comfy ride). If you really like the speed of narrow tyres, it’s really quite safe with the right technique – crossing tracks at an angle to avoid mishaps (I find 30° is sufficient, 90° is never a problem), and when they’re slippery, treating them like ice. It becomes second nature soon enough.

        I think there are some rubber/elasromer inserts which have been developed which also eliminate the groove – it presents a flat surface to bikes, yet squishes down for the tram wheel flange under the immense weight.

        • You’re looking at mountain bikes or the sturdier gravel bikes to fit 2" tyres. Your average commuter bike likely won’t have rhe clearance. And yes, even tiny 23mm road racer tyres can cross tramlines with the right technique, but the requirement of a proper technique is still a barrier to entry.

          We’ve been calling for those rubber inserts, but so far to no avail.