UK Labour are too Tory for me.
I’ve threatened that they’ve lost my vote. (edit)
On LGBTQIA, specifically trans rights.
On their plans for the NHS.
On their plans for health and wealth inequalities in the UK.
On their plans for the relationship the UK has with Europe.
They have to be less Tory to get my vote back.
It’s not acceptable that to not vote Tory, we have to settle for what they offer. They assume their position is acceptable.
If they correct their position, I’ll reconsider
@uk_politics
frankPodmore ( @frankPodmore@slrpnk.net ) English20•11 months agoThis is a good summary of Labour’s actual policy positions, which are very different from your characterisation of them. You obviously have the right to vote for whoever you want to, for whatever reasons, but it’s better to root your behaviour in reality, not rhetoric.
noodle ( @noodle@feddit.uk ) 11•11 months agoThank you! It’s actually worrying how much people seem to be basing their idea of what party policy will be on soundbites they’ve heard.
This country is in dire need of some political literacy. Thinking that the Tories and Lib Dems are somehow better on LGBQT issues than Labour would be hilarious if it wasn’t a damning indictment of the intelligence of British voters.
SubArcticTundra ( @SubArcticTundra@lemmy.ml ) 4•11 months agoWould you be able to unlock the article for us by any chance? 🙏
noodle ( @noodle@feddit.uk ) 6•11 months agoSearch for it on archive.is
If you’re on Firefox you can add a filter for paywalls to uBlock Origin.
SubArcticTundra ( @SubArcticTundra@lemmy.ml ) 4•11 months agoWill do thanks!
@frankPodmore Unfortunately the pay wall prevents others from seeing this. I’ve read the entire article via the link given and it doesn’t address several of my points, so I’m not clear which policy positions you’re referring to.
In fact the opening paragraph agrees with me:
“It has been said that in sidelining the Labour party’s Corbynite left wing and manoeuvring it towards the centre, Sir Keir Starmer has made the UK opposition barely distinguishable in tone from the governing Conservatives.” frankPodmore ( @frankPodmore@slrpnk.net ) English13•11 months agoNo, it doesn’t agree with you. Really basic reading comprehension error, there. It says people have said that, not that it is true. It spends the following 600 words demolishing that case.
noodle ( @noodle@feddit.uk ) 4•11 months agoPaywalls are easily circumvented. This isn’t a good excuse.
For the uninitiated; Copy the article address and paste it into the search bar on archive.is. There are multiple paywall bypass methods, this is just one.
@noodle As I said I’ve read it, via a different method to you, but thanks for sharing it.
Now other readers will be aware of a strategy. Not all strategies work so people may have to try more than one. In any case it’s an inadequate article. noodle ( @noodle@feddit.uk ) 4•11 months agoYou responded within 1 minute of it being posted and then dismissed it for being too long, which it isn’t. Anything less than 1500 words should take you about 5 minutes to read. That’s not much of a commitment.
@noodle Skim, CTRL-F, then re-read, it’s been quite some time now and it’s still inadequate.
@frankPodmore I have rooted my behaviour in reality by telling them what I want. Additionally, I also have the absolute right to change my mind as many times as I wish and to vote tactically, come the GE dependent on the facts available at the time.
We should all be able to make on the spot decisions based on the available data and only rely on heuristics if the data isn’t available.
What I tell them and what I do, are not Labour’s concern. frankPodmore ( @frankPodmore@slrpnk.net ) English9•11 months agoYour description of what you want is virtually value-free, because it’s framed entirely negatively. It sounds like you want ‘not the Tories’. The article makes the case that Labour are ‘not the Tories’, as does history and, frankly, common sense.
@frankPodmore The article in it’s just over 600 words does barely anything to answer my points.
The value is again, that I choose to tell Labour what it is I want from them. Recall that I’ve not shared the email with you, so you have no way of knowing.
It isn’t a simple dichotomy. I choose to tell Labour what I want from them. There are many varieties of not Tory and labour can choose to be Tory lite, or not. How I vote and what I tell them can align or not as I see fit. frankPodmore ( @frankPodmore@slrpnk.net ) English5•11 months agoI mean, again, your points are ‘Labour are too much like the Tories’ and the article is about numerous ways in which Labour are, in fact, not like the Tories.
NattyNatty2x4 ( @NattyNatty2x4@beehaw.org ) English3•11 months agoDude’s just trying to make another “both sides” argument. Always funny how people pretending that both sides are the same do so in a way that conflates the further-left party with the further-right party, and not the other way around. Almost like it’s conservatives pretending to be to the left…
frankPodmore ( @frankPodmore@slrpnk.net ) English3•11 months agoYeah, they’re always only a hop and a skip from voting Lib Dem. And from there, it’s just one jump to ‘Might as well vote Tory…!’
@frankPodmore My characterisation is broad and lacking detail, mostly for word count. There are other policies I’ve not detailed either.
As I’ve said elsewhere, my voicing my opinion to Labour and other left parties is as important as my vote. frankPodmore ( @frankPodmore@slrpnk.net ) English5•11 months agoThat is definitely less important than your vote. Also, I’m unconvinced you’ve read the article in the time you’ve had since I posted it.
EDIT: Why have you replied in so many different comments? I can’t follow your argument if it’s spread out like this!
ᴇᴍᴘᴇʀᴏʀ 帝 ( @Emperor@feddit.uk ) English4•11 months agoI think you might have broken them.
@frankPodmore
It is precisely as important because I value my vote and I decide to whom I give it, and because they need to know why they have my vote or not. The article is 632 words long. frankPodmore ( @frankPodmore@slrpnk.net ) English4•11 months agoEven this argument shows that the ‘why’ of voting is subsidiary to the fact of voting, which is the opposite point to the one you intend.
@frankPodmore Only if you assume that my intention is to make good on the threat.
frankPodmore ( @frankPodmore@slrpnk.net ) English4•11 months agoIt’s not much of a threat if you don’t, is it?
Garfvynneve ( @Garfvynneve@feddit.uk ) 17•11 months agoYou don’t vote FOR a party in a first past the post system. You tactivally vote against.
@Garfvynneve What I tell them I’m planning to do doesn’t have to match with what I’ll actually do.
We all can do this to demand better.
Fedegenerate ( @Fedegenerate@lemmynsfw.com ) English14•11 months agoThe famous Labour double bind:
If a left leaning Labour lose the election, it’s because they don’t appeal to voters. If a right leaning Labour lose the election, it’s because the left didn’t vote for them.
@Fedegenerate I didn’t say I won’t vote for them, I just told them they had lost my vote.
Staying silent and voting for a not good enough Labour let’s them think they are. Telling them I won’t even though I might vote for them, and describing why, gives them an opportunity to evaluate.
If they’re not good enough for you and yours what are you doing to change that? My strategy is one way. There are others. Fedegenerate ( @Fedegenerate@lemmynsfw.com ) English4•11 months agodon’t think I’m describing what you think I’m describing.
I’m describing the no win situation right leaning Labour supporters try to force left leaning people into.
I.e. 1 When a Labour leader they don’t like loses an election it’s the left’s fault. 2 When a leader they do like loses an election it’s the left’s fault.
I saw the same double bind being envoked in this thread, so I thought I’d highlight it.
frazorth ( @frazorth@feddit.uk ) 1•11 months agoOh no you must be so persecuted!
Although the last person that Labour put forward, wasn’t right leaning?
How well did he do in the vote against Boris? Or is that all the right wings fault too?
Fedegenerate ( @Fedegenerate@lemmynsfw.com ) English2•11 months agoHello exhibit A, thanks for joining us. Would you like to calm down and try again?
I agree though, Corbyn losing votes was Corbyn’s fault. This then means Kier pushing the left not to vote for him is Kier’s fault.
Except Labour supporters want it both ways, it was the left’s fault that Corbyn lost the election, and Starmer not winning the left’s vote is also the left’s fault.
This is called a double bind. I hope that clears things up for you.
frazorth ( @frazorth@feddit.uk ) 1•11 months agoI’m fine. I just find it amusing watching a party that spends it time blaming everyone else.
Corbyn lost the election because:
- He had generally unpopular policies and
- The press don’t like Labour so will also make them look incompetent.
Starmer has the same issue, watching the Labour left crucify him for policies he doesn’t have, and misrepresenting his caution for committing money to projects when the Tories still have time to wreck and pillage everything further as reasons he won’t support the NHS at all is amazingly short sighted.
Fedegenerate ( @Fedegenerate@lemmynsfw.com ) English1•11 months agoI just find it amusing watching a party that spends it time blaming everyone else.
I know right? That’s what the double bind does. “It’s the left’s fault Corbyn lost the election, it’s the left’s fault they won’t vote for Starmer”. At least we can all have a bit of chuckle at them.
Overzeetop ( @Overzeetop@beehaw.org ) 13•11 months agoThe Torys thank you for your abstention, and look forward to enacting policies which enrich themselves at your expense.
@Overzeetop That’s another way of accusing me of being a Tory enabler. The point being as I have said elsewhere, is that what I tell labour I will do and what I do, are not their or anyone else’s concern.
In the meantime I can lobby for policy change in any way I see fit, as can anyone else, in a democracy as it currently stands.
It isn’t a simple dichotomy, despite FPTP.“As far as I can ascertain, Conservatives voters fall into one or more of these categories;”
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1690002613842886656.html Overzeetop ( @Overzeetop@beehaw.org ) 2•11 months agoAnd I believe you should do everything to lobby for what you feel is correct - and if that’s left (or north or south or whatever) of Labor, hell yes. I was, indeed, being hyperbolic. (I also saw your edit :-)
Agree or disagree, elections are not fractional representations (at least nowhere I’m aware, for national). There is one winner who gets 100% of the say, so try to be pragmatic on the one day you cast your vote. On the rest, give 'em hell.
@Overzeetop Thanks for the explanatory note and spotting the edit.
I’m all for pragmatic and ultimately GTTO, so chances are I / we will be faced with either voting Tory shit (no chance) or a bit less shit in the shape of a much less than ideal Labour.Yes, I will try and do what I can to drive an improvement somewhere along the line with whom ever I can that’ll help the concerned collective along. Finding those people might be harder than it needs to be.
@Overzeetop My email has struck a chord and I’ve had a response today. My local Labour parliamentary candidate wants to chat with me. I’ll see what they have to say and report back.
Overzeetop ( @Overzeetop@beehaw.org ) 2•11 months agoHoly shit - that’s awesome; I hope they’re receptive!
@Overzeetop
No call yesterday, another email sent to make a telephone appointment, still no policy documents received, or acknowledgement of the email!@Overzeetop hope so too. I’m planning on having the call going along the lines of dragons den, they’re doing the flogging of an idea, not me!
ThePyroPython ( @ThePyroPython@feddit.uk ) 12•11 months agoCan you vote tactically for Lib Dem or Greens without risking more votes going to the Tories?
sabreW4K3 ( @sabreW4K3@lemmy.tf ) 5•11 months agoFuck the Lib Dems, even tactically.
ThePyroPython ( @ThePyroPython@feddit.uk ) 17•11 months agoMate, we’re under a first past the post system, tactical voting matters to get the most damaging political force, i.e. the Tories, out of power and by a significant majority.
Anything remotely left of the Tories is better, even if it is Centre Centre Centre calling itself Left Labour.
Solivine ( @solivine@sopuli.xyz ) 2•11 months agoAt this point lib Dems are probably left of labour with their policies, given labours recent downturn
noodle ( @noodle@feddit.uk ) 5•11 months agoNo, this is just untrue.
They are a centre-right party. They effectively represent Tories who didn’t want Brexit. They may talk a big game and make big promises, such as UBI. But they also made promises when they went into coalition with the Conservative party, and once in power they fell in line.
frankPodmore ( @frankPodmore@slrpnk.net ) English2•11 months agoUBI isn’t even necessarily a leftist policy. Apparently Richard Nixon even considered it!
noodle ( @noodle@feddit.uk ) 2•11 months agoIt’s not inherently leftist but it is a big promise.
Not unlike tuition fees.
frankPodmore ( @frankPodmore@slrpnk.net ) English2•11 months agoJust incredible that the Lib Dems are still trying this argument.
Apart from the reality of their platforms, Ed Davey was literally a cabinet member in a Tory government and was knighted for this service by a Tory Prime Minister.
Solivine ( @solivine@sopuli.xyz ) 1•11 months agoRight, so it should be alarming that labour has worse policies than that, right?
frankPodmore ( @frankPodmore@slrpnk.net ) English1•11 months agoIDK what metric you’re using for ‘worse’. Sure would be alarming if they did, but they don’t.
mannycalavera ( @mannycalavera@feddit.uk ) 3•11 months agoYou students tried that in 2015 and got Megagiga Tory and in 2016 we left the EU. In 2017 and 2019 when the Lib Dems campaigned to stop Brexit and rejoin it was “they took rrrrr students loans!”. 🙄
So yes, fuck them. Oh and whilst we’re at it let’s also hand power to two parties that will keep us out of the EU because they are scared of their voter base. Good job 👍.
sabreW4K3 ( @sabreW4K3@lemmy.tf ) 7•11 months agoI’m not a student, but let me ask you this as a supposed predecessor, why didn’t you ensure younger generations didn’t have to worry about politicians lying without consequence?
Oh and don’t forget the Lib Dems are partially responsible for this mess. It may surprise you but I’m old enough to remember that. They’re an untrustworthy party and no one owes them a vote because some person on the Internet wants to whitewash their recent history and guilt trip us into supporting them.
teamonkey ( @teamonkey@lemm.ee ) 5•11 months agoTrust and good will for the Lib Dems was destroyed in 2010, when they jumped into a coalition government with the Tories for the tiniest sniff of power, despite their manifesto being closer to Labour’s on paper, backtracking on many of their policies and outright failing on others.
teamonkey ( @teamonkey@lemm.ee ) 4•11 months agoTactically speaking, you can vote for the party you want to win only if you are absolutely certain that a) the tories have such a strong majority there isn’t a chance of anyone else getting in; b) some other party has such a majority there isn’t a chance of the Tories getting in. Otherwise you vote for the non-Tory party (or party that will not ally with the Tories) that is most likely to make it in your area.
I still vote tactically because there have historically been some close results where I live, but I’m sick of voting for parties I don’t want to win. I decided to become a member of the political party that I felt I was in most in line with, despite the fact I rarely vote for them. Small gesture, I know.
@ThePyroPython My email has struck a chord and I’ve had a response today. My local Labour parliamentary candidate wants to chat with me. I’ll see what they have to say and report back.
@ThePyroPython
Under FPTP, not in my area, however…
https://med-mastodon.com/@XraySonoCol/110876506587951106
ᴇᴍᴘᴇʀᴏʀ 帝 ( @Emperor@feddit.uk ) English9•11 months agoAs far as I’m concerned, the worst case scenario (by a very large margin) is another Tory government. I’ll be doing everything I can this side of campaigning for Labour (my MP is Labour and he’s alright, my local councillors are also Labour and active and all the ball, but I can’t bring myself to actual promote a party who’s policies I struggle to endorse). So that’s mainly sending out tactical voting information and offering lifts to the polling stations.
@Emperor I agree, Tory is worst. I don’t have to let a not good enough Labour think they are good enough.
Recall I *told* Labour they lost my vote, that doesn’t mean I can’t exercise my vote in any way that effectively gets the Tories out, which includes actually voting for Labour.
Tenebris Nox ( @tenebrisnox@feddit.uk ) English6•11 months agoUK Labour are too Tory for me.
Absolutely right.
It doesn’t matter who you vote for now. I don’t think it ever has (except perhaps in 1945). Social change in this country happens outside parliamentary politics. One of the big lies that we’ve allowed to become accepted is that changes to society happen as a result of MPs debating in parliament. They don’t.
Westminster politics is an entertainment used to distract us from taking action .
Iam ( @Iam@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) 4•11 months agoDoesn’t matter what bumcheek you vote for, it’s still an arsehole.
rayquetzalcoatl ( @rayquetzalcoatl@feddit.uk ) 4•11 months agoThis is such a Colin post
@rayquetzalcoatl We are a monolith
NuPNuA ( @NuPNuA@lemm.ee ) 3•11 months agoI do feel you on some issues here. Others like Europe I think are well left alone this election after the last election was a one topic vote eventually.
Personally I’ll still be voting labour, as things stand, mainly because my MP is an old school labour type and having people like that lose and leave the party doesn’t help to shift it leftwards again and also there was only a few thousand in it last time and a neutered version of labour is still preferable to more Tories.
However Starmers leadership has made it feel less like holding my nose to got and more like I need a full hazmat suit.
@uk_politics https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/what-next-for-british-left-labour-strikes-unions-keir-starmer-jeremy-corbyn/?utm_source=SEGMENT%20-%20Newsletter%3A%20oD%20weekly&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Society%20is%20shifting%20leftwards%2C%20but…&_kx=95fkBW9xUhcEiUn_sEUVx1-FIxpReUd8Ie0w7IyDjZU%3D.YjCYwm