That’s an odd way to spell “what the insatiable greed of like seven corporations has done to us.”
Those 7 corporations. Would those be companies whose products we keep buying?
They have trained you all your life to blame the victims.
Who is consuming their products? I’m doing my damn best not too while striving for structural change, and I’d bet the other user is too. What about you? People taking your stance are usually the ones trying to make excuses to keep consuming mindlessly.
That’s a pretty absurd generalization. I live off grid and get my power from solar, food from my garden and foraging. I compost all of my waste, consume as consciously as I can possibly achieve as an average individual, and I refuse to accept that this is some regular person’s fault.
Rugged individualism and shame will not change the world positively, some fucking accountability on the part of the few people causing the damage (corporations etc) might. It is willful ignorance to say that it is just everyone’s fault.
Almost everyone is just trying their best, save for a small number of incredibly rich people+the entities they run ruining everything.
Idk here’s a quote from The Good Place
"I want to tell you about a guy from my dance crew in Jacksonville called Big Noodle.
I used to yell at Big Noodle 'cause he always showed up late to rehearsal. Then one day, the swamp under my house flooded. I needed a place to crash, so I slept at Big Noodle’s house. Turns out that he had to juggle three jobs to take care of four grandparents who all lived in the same bed just like in “Willy Wonka.”
I never yelled at Big Noodle for being late after that 'cause I knew how hard it was for him to be there. And he definitely didn’t have time to research what tomatoes to buy. Even if he wanted to, possession of a non-fried vegetable is a felony in Jacksonville. The point is, you can’t judge humans 'cause you don’t know what we go through"
That’s a pretty absurd generalization. I live off grid and get my power from solar, food from my garden and foraging. I compost all of my waste, consume as consciously as I can possibly achieve as an average individual, and I refuse to accept that this is some regular person’s fault.
Then why do you do all that? You are contradicting yourself. Clearly you believe the average person has an impact, which is what I and others are saying. That doesn’t mean it’s all the average person’s fault, or that there aren’t powerful people leveraging that power to try to keep this system up. But “the system” isn’t something magical or a law of the universe; “the system” is people and their choices.
Almost everyone is just trying their best, save for a small number of incredibly rich people+the entities they run ruining everything.
Come on, you know that’s not true. Just go outside and talk to the average person, or even go on a more popular and less closed off social network.
I’m not saying life is easy right now, but most people could do a lot more than they do. Most people eat more red meat than is even healthy for them, never mind the environment, and never mind other meats or animal products in general. Most people will buy bottled water (and other beverages) even when they have access to clean tap water (and I’m not saying everybody does have access to it). Most people will make excuses to use a car, no matter how good the public transport is, or even if they could use a bicycle. Most people will still choose to use plastic bags for groceries instead of reusable ones, at least until a store stops supplying plastic bags.
To expand a bit more on this and not have to do much typing, I’ll just a leave a couple of comments from else where on this thread; the first one is mine and the second is from another user:
Though experiment:
Tomorrow is election day in your country. The stout environmentalists win control of the government and proceed to make the following changes:
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Carbon tax, which increases the price of gas, which itself results in an increase in shipping anything. It also directly raises the price of anything that produces carbon in its manufacture process, such as anything made of plastic.
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An end to meat subsidies - maybe even a tax on it - and an increase to subsidizing other types of farming.
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A ban on single use plastics.
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And anything else you think might be necessary.
Now the questions: How long until they get kicked out? How long until the protests and riots? How long until a new government undoes it all?
I’m assuming you’re not naive and you don’t live in a bubble. You should know the majority of people will not be fans of any of that; and with the way it usually goes and the pendulum swings, the government that follows it will be a far right one.
what would happen if everyone turned around and said ‘you know what, fuck companies that sell drinks in bottles i’m never going to be without my refillable bottle’ how long would coca-cola keep producing 100 billion plastic bottles a year? what would they do with them?
But if James Quincey said ‘fuck it, I’m not producing plastic bottles anymore they’re bad for the planet’ but 8 billion people said ‘oh ok, well we’re still going to regularly buy drinks in plastic bottles’ the numbers of plastic bottles being made would dip slightly but only while Ramon Laguarta rushed to spend the flood of money now coming in to scale up production at pepsi co.
You seem have an incredibly narrow view of what is “right” and are willing to dole out judgement based on your beliefs. I do truly believe that everyone is doing their best with the tools that they are given, and I cannot discount their efforts. It is not my place to talk shit idk.
I live the way I do because I am uniquely able to, most people are not. I cannot fault others for not being able to live this lifestyle because it takes MONEY and TIME that most people do not have. I don’t think your solutions are necessarily the solutions we need, I personally live in a state where taxes on the individual are the answer to every problem and it only makes it even harder for people to survive? Not great.
The world is complicated and very hard, obviously the system is not “magic,” but I don’t accept that consumer gas, meat, and bottled water is entirely the problem here when most of the Pacific Ocean garbage patch is commercial fishing nets (just one example). We need corporate accountability before anything else.
Igss I’m just here commenting to let you know that I don’t think it’s these Lemmy users’ faults that shit is shitty, and that I am not a “mindless consumer” or whatever.
This will be my last comment because I don’t want to keep bothering you, especially because I know I write too much, but feel to reply and I will read it.
most of the Pacific Ocean garbage patch is commercial fishing nets (just one example)
But who eats the fish? It’s not the companies. The companies are just enablers. I’m now not sure if you read it, so I refer you back to the last part of my comment (last 2 paragraphs).
I personally live in a state where taxes on the individual are the answer to every problem and it only makes it even harder for people to survive? Not great.
It seems you don’t realize it, but you’re agreeing with what I’m saying. Studies/polls have shown the majority of people would be in favour of a carbon tax. But as you said, high prices/taxes don’t really help and can make life terrible for the average person. Yet, that would be the result of a carbon tax. But people don’t think about that; people just think about how the world is going to shit, and someone should do something and when they hear “carbon tax” they think “great!”, because they think it’s a way to keep their lifestyle and comforts and don’t realize it would necessitate a life change anyway. The question is whether you do the change now by reducing your consumption, or wait until you’re forced to do it due to regulation and prices hikes you can’t afford.
I do truly believe that everyone is doing their best with the tools that they are given, and I cannot discount their efforts. It is not my place to talk shit idk.
I really don’t want to be rude or mean, but I have no other way to put this: if you really think that, you really are naive and living in a bubble. Which I guess isn’t surprising if you do live off grid and have enough room to grow your own food and you can compost all your waste, while also being on the Fediverse and especially from beehaw (very leftist leaning and environmentally aware places); but take it from someone living in a very large city and who frequents very diverse online places: that’s not true.
Just from the most environmentally “aware” people I personally know: a lot don’t bother recycling, or didn’t until very recently; they don’t think twice about single use plastics; most of them have meat as the stable of their diet, especially red meat; one of them insists on drinking bottled water despite have clean tap water, and a lot of the others buy quite a bit of plastic soda bottles. Oh, and something about my neighbours: some of them throw plastic take out packages out of their windows and into the street.
And also, finally, if what you say is true, then environmental parties would currently be in government in most places; after all a vote is tool everyone has and it costs nothing. But that’s not the case. In my country, the two most environmentally aware parties are currently the 2 smallest parties in the parliament; the second biggest one is a far right party; the third party are somewhere between liberals and right wing libertarians who have said there is no climate emergency; the leading party is a liberal party who talks about the environment, but doesn’t actually do shit about it. And that’s with a 60 to 70% voter turnout.
Do you really expect me to believe that “everyone is doing their best with the tools that they are given”?
I’m from Portugal btw, you can see here how many tons of CO2 per capita we were responsible for emitting (from production and consumption in 2018 and 2016 respectively). We’re not even top 50 in either list; USA is 17th and 7th, for reference.
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I’m sorry, I can’t stop using electricity or gas to go to work because I need to eat and pay rent to live. Because that’s the world those rich people made for everyone else.
Whether you do or not, other major corporations do, and while the money changes hands between a few dozen rich assholes, the planet burns and they laugh while you blame me.
You mean the products they designed to be as cheap as possible with no care on their impact on the environment, and then brainwashed the population through marketing to make us think we actually needed them?
You don’t even need to brainwash. Just make sure their wage stays at a level where their survival depends on buying the cheapest of cheap, necessity will do the rest.
Sure. And what’s is the answer? Put in a cycle lane and people apparently go apeshit
Yeah, if people really wanted, they could make their own phones and all they own by hand. These damn socialists!
“We can’t make our own phones, so there’s literally nothing we can do!”
Do you have a plant based diet, or try to reduce meat consumption to the best of your abilities?
Do you walk or take public transport when you could walk?
Do you avoid buying things you do not need?
If you answered “yes” to all that, then congratulations! You are part of a different 1%, and you are also just arguing for the sake of arguing.
If you answered “no”, then you’re part of the problem. You can pretend otherwise all you want, but you are one cog that keeps the system going. The system isn’t magical, other wordly, or some fundamental law of the universe. The system is people and their choices.
Yes, those people are part of the problem. But reality is that those people don’t need to lead the change. There are too many literal individuals involved. Tackling the problem from the head down with regulations is much more efficient.
Blaming individuals for climate change is incredibly naive. Doesn’t help anyone. No vegan will save the world. And no omnivore will destroy it.
said 8 billion people in unison
Only a handful of those 8 billions actually impact the climate on an immense scale though.
what would happen if everyone turned around and said ‘you know what, fuck companies that sell drinks in bottles i’m never going to be without my refillable bottle’ how long would coca-cola keep producing 100 billion plastic bottles a year? what would they do with them?
But if James Quincey said ‘fuck it, I’m not producing plastic bottles anymore they’re bad for the planet’ but 8 billion people said ‘oh ok, well we’re still going to regularly buy drinks in plastic bottles’ the numbers of plastic bottles being made would dip slightly but only while Ramon Laguarta rushed to spend the flood of money now coming in to scale up production at pepsi co.
Yeah to those 3.
However, I wasn’t intending to argue with someone with such a simplistic view of how the system works, anyway. If you think it’s all up to the customer and the corps nor the system have no blame in comparison, it’s just a lost cause, so sort yourself out.
If you think it’s all up to the customer and the corps nor the system have no blame in comparison
When did I or anyone else say companies and the government do not have any blame? Can you link me the comment and quote the relevant bit?
Those 7 corporations. Would those be companies whose products we keep buying?
The very first comment I replied to :). Shifting blame from the corps onto the customers. Once again, feel free to sort yourself out.
It’s not shifting blame, it’s pointing out they do not exist in isolation. You can put blame on the companies and still recognize that most people make no effort to avoid them, even when they have a choice.
I’ll add on what someone said further above:
what would happen if everyone turned around and said ‘you know what, fuck companies that sell drinks in bottles i’m never going to be without my refillable bottle’ how long would coca-cola keep producing 100 billion plastic bottles a year? what would they do with them?
But if James Quincey said ‘fuck it, I’m not producing plastic bottles anymore they’re bad for the planet’ but 8 billion people said ‘oh ok, well we’re still going to regularly buy drinks in plastic bottles’ the numbers of plastic bottles being made would dip slightly but only while Ramon Laguarta rushed to spend the flood of money now coming in to scale up production at pepsi co.
Those corporations sell products that end up in consumer’s hands.
Billions and billions and billions and billions of dollars of propaganda are just a coincidence.
And a century of research into more powerful and crushing propaganda. Just a coincidence.
Those seven corporations all sell consumer products. We can make changes but we are unwilling to make them.
I did make the changes personally. Everything must be perfect now in the whole world! You’re welcome!
How ridiculous. We need to be honest about power.
We do need to talk about power but we also have to stop pretending individual sacrifice especially in the West is not required. For example we should all be going fir a plant based diet ASAP
Most reasonable viewpoint, but it requires something of people, so of course it’s downvoted.
And that’s the rub. There are things we as individuals can do but we choose to ignore that.
We already are making individual sacrifices.
The problem is that the big polluters are not doing so.
Some are making them not all of us and in the case of climate change it needs to be all
It would be easy to sacrifice those rich assholes in a slaughterhouse
And then others will rise to take their place. If the demand is there, someone will try to meet it. All long as the vast majority of people are not willing to make changes in their own life, then everything else is pointless, and it will all fail.
EDIT: Stealing another comment to add to this:
what would happen if everyone turned around and said ‘you know what, fuck companies that sell drinks in bottles i’m never going to be without my refillable bottle’ how long would coca-cola keep producing 100 billion plastic bottles a year? what would they do with them?
But if James Quincey said ‘fuck it, I’m not producing plastic bottles anymore they’re bad for the planet’ but 8 billion people said ‘oh ok, well we’re still going to regularly buy drinks in plastic bottles’ the numbers of plastic bottles being made would dip slightly but only while Ramon Laguarta rushed to spend the flood of money now coming in to scale up production at pepsi co.
I did make the changes personally.
Then congratulations! You are part of a different kind of 1%, and you perfectly understand what the other user is saying and are just arguing for the sake of arguing.
The reality is, most people don’t want to make any changes. You can’t change the system if the people themselves are not opening to change.
Though experiment:
Tomorrow is election day in your country. The stout environmentalists win control of the government and proceed to make the following changes:
-
Carbon tax, which increases the price of gas, which itself results in an increase in shipping anything. It also directly raises the price of anything that produces carbon in its manufacture process, such as anything made of plastic.
-
An end to meat subsidies - maybe even a tax on it - and an increase to subsidizing other types of farming.
-
A ban on single use plastics.
-
And anything else you think might be necessary.
Now the questions: How long until they get kicked out? How long until the protests and riots? How long until a new government undoes it all?
I’m assuming you’re not naive and you don’t live in a bubble. You should know the majority of people will not be fans of any of that; and with the way it usually goes and the pendulum swings, the government that follows it will be a far right one.
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Cue that “badass” bird from Kurzgesagt ‘voting with their wallet’.
Neoliberalism put us in this situation, so you know what will save us? More neoliberalism!
Show me how to stop using oil. SHOW ME.
What I, an individual, can do. And don’t say: consume less. I need to eat to live. And don’t say: vote for politicians. We’re doing that and it isn’t fast enough. So, what can an individual do to stop this? Go on. We’re all waiting.
You probably can’t stop but you can reduce your power consumption. There’s a lot of studies suggesting if Westerners stopped eating meat and shifted to a plant based diet that we could reduce a lot of our climactic shift.
So your solution is: austerity for the poors. Not for the rich. But we can slightly reduce our carbon footprint by not eating meat.
OK. This doesn’t stop climate change. This just makes life harder and less pleasurable for the majority of people. This is what the rich push.
I never made any comment about anyone’s wealth. That is moronic bullshit you added for no reason.
The West going to plant based diets would significantly cut emissions. It is what YOU as an individual can do.
You asked what YOU can do and that is it.
The West going to plant based diets would significantly cut emissions.
Nowhere near enough to matter. I mentioned wealth because the vast majority of people are not “rich”. And it’s the rich who own the corporations that make these decisions that affect the climate and how fuels are used.
I.e. you are proposing austerity for the masses that will NOT stop climate change. You are the problem as you are shilling for big business. My point is there ISN’T anything individuals can do to stop climate change. We have to hold the rich and corporate owners accountable.
There’s very little, without systemic change. But blaming the 7 companies is too easy, as well. Imagine, if you will - what happens if the 7 companies tomorrow simply say ‘you convinced us - we will completely cease operations tomorrow’. Lots of dead people.
It’s easy to blame them because it’s true.
At this point, many of them are too stablished to just go away with the power of the wallet.
So, once again. If it’s 7 companies to blame - do you think shutting them down tomorrow is the simple solution?
It may not be simple, but I’m sure nature wouldn’t mind.
ok play it through a bit, so we shut down those 7 companies - i’m not sure which seven companies people are talking about but i assume it’s related to this statistic Just 100 companies responsible for 71% of global emissions so let’s just shut them all down…
mother nature breaths a sigh of relief as billions of people die because of the collapse of global infrastructure, world governments collapse, desperate conflicts erupt around the world with warlords taking over oil reserves and production facilities… the handful of dictators with working tanks and who only care about wealth and power subjugate the helpless and starving masses promising food and prosperity when victory comes…
Now the planet has been purged of everyone who actually cares about the climate, every available source of food and energy is stripped in a frantic battle for survival - how many people do you know that would let their kids freeze to death and how many people do you know that’d go out and chop down a tree to burn? A couple of months of winter and every tree in every city would be felled.
Hey bud, I’m the guy you asked what in my opinion would happen if companies halved their consumption over night. I just wanted you to know that I replied, but due to the fact that the mod of this place disagreed with something I had to say about cruise liners, I got banned and all my comments erased.
Good luck, and try not to disagree with the power tripper here.
Annoying. If you still have a copy - could you DM me?
I do not. The gist of my reply was just that cutting production by half doesn’t have to happen over night. Setting a scaling goal of five years, for example, would give ample time for people to adapt and less environmentally strenuous alternatives to arise.
Anyway, I’m not trying to say that change doesn’t have to come from the bottom as well. I’m also not super keen on continuing this conversation in the wake of being wholesale banned for talking about corporate interests. It just kind of left a bad taste in my mouth.
Thanks for listening.
Thank for taking part. I appreciate it - and I would have like to have explored this with you. I do appreciate batting ideas about with pople of differing viewpoint. I think we botgh have the same goal in mind
New York times being new York times
Don’t you put that evil on me Ricky Bobby
I find articles like this so frustrating. It feels like it is aimed at being a wake-up call to the reader, but at the same time offers no solutions, no advice and still lays the blame at the feet of the average person for not doing enough. “What we have done to ourselves” is not advocate enough I guess?
Perhaps I’m not the target audience for the article. I grew up in an environmentally conscious home we’ll before it was trendy and have been worried about climate change for as long as I can remember. It’s hard to see an article like this as anything other than an effort to drive traffic…
I’d be happy to hear what others got out of the article if it was more positive than my read of it.
relevant video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc1vrO6iL0U
(Also, archive link to top article: https://archive.is/gI427 )
we didn’t do shit. big oil companies on the other hand…
We’ve likely kicked ourselves from a path where we would see 4C of warming by 2100 with further warming thereafter to one where we see about 3C of warming by 2100 with further warming thereafter. That’s an improvement, but not what we need, with is actual stabilization under livable conditions.
Again with the “we”.
And who bought the gas? Who bought the oil? Who bought the plastic made from the oil? Who bought the food grown from the fertilizer made from the oil?
If you don’t live on North Sentinel Island your entire life relies on the products of the corporations that have destroyed the environment. You are complicit. Your parents were complicit. Your children, if any, will be complicit.
Blaming corporations or capitalism or “big oil” is just a way of dodging personal responsibility. It’s an excuse for not making inconvenient personal changes in your own lifestyle. It lets you tell yourself that when big corporations consume so much there is no point in you lowering your standard of living to consume less.
The fact that corporations are worse than you does not absolve you of your responsibility for your own decisions and your own environmental sins. We all have to do better.
You have to be incredibly naive to think a systemic problem can be solved by individual lifestyle changes
Systemic problems need political fixes. Political fixes require collective action. And collective action is the sum total of individual lifestyle choices.
If you want government to act on the environment you need a critical mass of voters who put the environment first and punish politicians at the ballot box if they don’t.
If you want corporations to act on the environment you need a critical mass of consumers who refuse to buy from corps that don’t.
And you get to that critical mass by living your values and converting other people to those values.
So yeah, your asking for a paper straw doesn’t make an impact. You being part of hundreds of thousands of people all asking for paper straws tells Starbucks they better pay attention.
Big oil companies witheld critical data on impact of fossil fuels on climate change. Source
You go ahead and use paper straws all you like if it will give you a moral high ground and let you shit on people like you just tried on me. It will clear your conscience and will help you consider yourself soo much better than the rest. The fact remains - massive corporations do the most damage and will do fuck all to fix it up by, oh, I don’t know, changing their production methods, switching to renewables etc. But yeah, sure, it’s my fault.
We deserve everything that’s coming We took this world to our graves, We made its creatures our slaves Shattered the hourglass, an un-erasable past Humans, Demons, deranged and depraved
“we”
I feel it’s time for people that care to start moving on the the acceptance phase of our future. Whether that is beginning to accept austerity in what we eat/wear/do and wait for the collective “we” to join us when they need to adapt more rapidly than we chose to, or if we give in and join the “it’s already too late, let it burn” side.
I try to stay positive, because I’ve always tried to conserve and be responsible, so it isn’t too bad, but I feel bad for the next generation or 2 at least. They asked for this even less than we did. But I feel the sooner we get on acting like this is a done deal the better, because most people aren’t going to care until they’re hurting.
I feel it’s time for people that care to start moving on the the acceptance phase of our future.
I’ve recently started to feel this way as well. One need not look any further than this thread itself to see that we’re fucked. The discussion here is a perfect example of how we seem to be frozen in some sort of complex “prisoner’s dilemma” between the public, the media, the politicians, the industry, etc. All this finger-pointing going around, when the reality is that most people AND (especially) most companies in the entire developed/industrialized world shares a large part of the blame for this, and because of the mentality (human nature) and manipulations (capitalist nature) at play, nothing will be done in time before our species starts to be completely decimated.
I’ve been recommending this article to people who seem to share this realization, because it not only describes what we’re thinking, but it also provides some resources to help us process this.
Edit: At the same time, I still would like to fight like hell to change our course. But I just don’t want to fight alone, and I fear that that’s what it would mostly feel like. Alone, or very, very few people by my side.
The prisoners dilemma seems an appropriate analogy. Business doesn’t want to budge first and commit to a giant investment that isn’t profit driven. It commits then to us and other businesses can eat their lunch while they sacrifice profit to help society. Government doesn’t want to move first and drive business or if the county. And selfish people are just going to be selfish.
For your edit comments, just keep living by your principles. Share with others who want to listen, but don’t force anyone. Just be you. If you’re reading things like this out of curiosity, you’re on the right side of things already.
The prisoners dilemma seems an appropriate analogy. Business doesn’t want to budge first and commit to a giant investment that isn’t profit driven. It commits then to us and other businesses can eat their lunch while they sacrifice profit to help society. Government doesn’t want to move first and drive business or if the county. And selfish people are just going to be selfish.
You got what I was driving at. I don’t even think that it takes people being particularly selfish either. I think it just takes human nature. Most people want to have nice things and very few want to be the first or only one to make a sacrifice. So people in general are involved in this prisoner’s dilemma too, along with business, government, and media. It’s like a 4-way prisoner’s dilemma from hell.
For your edit comments, just keep living by your principles. Share with others who want to listen, but don’t force anyone. Just be you. If you’re reading things like this out of curiosity, you’re on the right side of things already.
Thanks, you too.
Who’s “we”, exactly?
And if you all supported human expansion into space decades ago, this might not have happened. 🤷
Space isn’t the answer. Save earth.
Space is the only answer at this point that makes any sense. Without human expansion into space, we can’t solve climate change.
Oh fuck off. We could have solved this decades ago without the need to be in space.
No, actually, we couldn’t, and those are the hard facts you didn’t want to hear because you cared more about punishing humanity just for existing in the industrial age than on moving forward like you should have been doing.
We only have 80 years’ worth of uranium on the planet, so nuclear, our best chance of on-surface clean energy, won’t last much longer, certainly not after the end of the century. Alpha-gen’s grandkids will needlessly suffer if that’s the only or even the primary route taken.
On surface green energy require rare earth metals mined using slavery primarily in the Congo Basin where the fucking rainforest is being dug out so we can all have cheap cell phone and electric car batteries. Is that really what you want? 90% of the world’s supply is controlled by China; do you want them to be able to use their near monopoly on the stuff to dominate everyone else?
Or, we could go out into space and mine near-Earth asteroids or the Moon for the stuff, and build space solar power stations which governments have been experimenting with for decades, and have near-unlimited access to 24/7 solar power and rare-earths for thousands of years, drop the prices of all metals so low that all construction and manufacturing costs tank with them, making housing much more available for everyone else than it ever has been including the global south, take advantage of space’s powerful psychological effects to end conflicts and foster international cooperation the likes of which have never been seen so we don’t nuke each other to kingdom come, and actually have some peace?
Also industry can and should be moved up there too so large swaths of the Earth can be rewilded and allowed to heal.
When the shit really hits the fan, the only safe way to geoengineer ourselves out of climate catastrophe will be to construct a solar shade that can be taken down whenever we want instead of letting idiots in the U.S. and EU spray sulfur dioxide into the atmosphere like they’re planning to do.
There are a multitude of reasons why we need to go to space to solve climate change.