Buying from an alternative ecommerce site usually sucks: you have to register for every website, enter your address, payment information and other information, they may leak data or store it improperly, you may not know the reputation of the website or business, you can’t easily compare products with other vendors and more. Amazon and ebay offer a centralized good experience and you know you can trust them with your purchase. They benefit the consumer by aggregating many businesses so it fosters competition lowering prices but they have so much power and they have done some anti consumer moves. Their fees could also be a problem. The same way mastodon offers a viable alternative to the deadbird platform and slice power to small instances while getting a better user experience. (And lemmy to Reddit.) A fediverse version of ecommerce could perhaps be viable: federated ecommerce that aggregates small business shops, handle the user details and let the business access it when you hit buy. Activity pub to communicate the listings and purchase orders. I am not a programmer and don’t know the technical implementations of it. So what do you think?
ActivityPub (the protocol used by the fediverse) has recently had a proposal to expand it incorporate marketplace exchanges of information. See the proposal, and a discussion thread
Looks good. While it looks more oriented towards a second-hand marketplace, its concepts can be extended to include business-to-consumer interactions as well. A mix of these systems could enhance the marketplace ecosystem’s versatility and usefulness. Thanks for sharing the proposal
Well it’s a new proposal and open to suggestions and further extensions of course.
This is very interesting to me and I’ve played with this kinda idea a few weeks ago, the Activity Pub proposal you linked seems very sensible for communicating between actors but doesn’t really offer much of a path to create a platform. In my view creating a platforms is the reason this should exist, because current platforms (Amazon,Ebay,Uber, AirBnB,DoorDash,Lieferheld) are mostly just engaging in rent seeking from buyers/sellers on their platforms. Rentier Capitalism
I don’t believe a protocol can sufficiently challenge the current players without an underpinning organizational structure that ensures fairness and transparency to both sellers and buyers, when it comes to moderation, indexing, and categorization. Especially moderation but also hosting will have costs, and the consequences for bad moderation are likely much larger with commerce than with social media. So I would like a Coop with significant control from both sellers and buyers to provide the public facing platform which then federates with the Stores which can be self hosted by sellers (potentially as an extension to existing eCommerce Software).
Or alternatively two Coops if it’s not reasonable for the sellers to host their own Stores e.g.: Uber and AirBnB, here the sellers should outright own the one providing the Stores, and own the minority in the one providing the Coop. Obviously middle grounds could also exist where e.g.: a Platform for Delivery food federates with seller servers that are hosted on a local level by Coops comprising of restaurants of a region.
I very deeply believe something like this could make our commerce much better and fairer, and while getting it of the ground might be hard, I think because the sellers make money on these Platforms it should give real incentive to develop both the tech and the legal orgs as well as advertise for them, and for the sellers to invest real money into it, or maybe agree to kick 1-2% of a purchase back to the coop.
Thanks for the reply! What you say makes a lot of sense to me. In general, co-ops are probably in greater need across the fediverse, and I can definitely see a timeline ahead of us where many of the organisations running major instances or services on the fediverse are co-ops of some sort.
Beyond that, I suspect you are onto something generally true in your comment about the need for institutions beyond the protocol. I suspect that this could be a trend in the growth of the fediverse also (see related thread here).
Otherwise, this isn’t my proposal, I’d encourage you to go share your thoughts in the discussion thread I linked to!
Think you just described crypto markets, and it’d be overrun with scams, fraud, legal issues, and zero accountability. Also my payment info and shipping address is the very last thing I want given to random decentralized instances ran by unknown people. No thanks.
At least when Amazon sends something shitty, they’ll fight back against the seller and you’re actually receiving something. Also big tech is significantly less likely to ever expose your personal information (addresses, payment info, etc) then some random instance owner.
So this is absolutely a terrible idea in a digital environment.
I’ve worked on payment systems. It is very hard to federate unless something like Stripe is used for actual payment.
Credit card companies simply won’t interface with you unless you prove their data is safe. It isn’t a process that scales well.
Brick and mortar companies get around this by having payment terminals which are insanely locked down. (Which is also why those terminals mostly suck)
My personal pipe dream is we swing back to a world where people buy in brick and mortar. Online shopping has stolen the soul from the buying experience.
More choice is not necessarily better. Buy local. See your money back in your community. Even shopping at “The Gap” at least part of your purchase is going to local employees that then go out and put the money into your community.
Saying this as someone who loves the convenience of Amazon… Fuck Amazon.
I’m curious when a challenger emerges and how.
You can shop online and still buy local. I’m not sure why you’re convinced this is an either/or scenario.
Personally I don’t have the time for a ton of brick-and-mortar shopping and my work requires specialized materials that aren’t made locally but often do require a bit of “shopping around.”
Shipping was sabotaged and it just doesn’t make sense to buy local. The item is more expensive and there’s a 30 to 60 dollar shipping fee tagged on. It’s usually the same made in china quality.
For work related stuff, I bypass both and get straight from China.
I don’t like it but the gov didn’t step in and basically handed half our economy to Amazon. At the height of it, they decided to sell our national shipping service so prices went up (I’m in Canada btw).
In a perfect world, amazon would get the boot and we would have a government owned drop shipping infrastructure. Until that happens, I’m not ready to pay 3x the price for simple items just to keep a dead dream alive. Local got snuffed when it comes to consumer goods.
Using Stripe or equivalent must be used for such a platform. The sellers would just get a check or bank transfer, they’d never need to handle a credit transaction.
Is the whole Amazon obsession just a North American thing? I’ve bought like 4 things from them in my life and nothing since about 2016 and I haven’t felt at all inconvenienced. From my perspective it’s not too hard to either buy from local companies, directly from foreign manufacturers, or from aliexpress if all else fails; that may just be because I’m not American though!
The reason why I choose Amazon is buying from many different stores without creating an account for each and every one. Nevermind that paying is easy.
Also returning stuff is very easy and uncomplicated when buying stuff from Amazon.
They have a huge market share in Europe too. And it’s very hard to compete with them, because in online retail the advantages given by economy of scale are brutal.
In the Netherlands there are plenty of online retailers like Coolblue who are doing well by competing on quality and customer service, despite prices being a bit higher (ironically). Next working day delivery is standard, so that isn’t an issue.
Bol.com is also really successful and much like Amazon, including its problems.
I assume this is because of a first mover advantage; for a long time, Amazon was only available in the UK, Germany and France*, so that created a major disadvantage. I’m guessing this might apply to a lot of smaller European countries.
*maybe other countries too, but at any rate not in the Benelux.
To those unfamiliar with the acronym: Be – Belgium • ne – The Netherlands • lux – Luxembourg
It’s definitely not a thing in sweden, they came here a few years back and everyone just laughed and carried on business as usual.
Then they tried to automatically translate all listings and that’s probably the best advertisement they could have made because people laughed themselves insensate over how mind-bendingly bad the translations were, and then a week later people promptly forgot that amazon exists again.
India has actually developed such an open platform: the open network for digital commerce.
https://ondc.org/learn-about-ondc/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Network_for_Digital_CommerceSo the software is there. You only need to adapt it to Europe and get people to use it.
I think this is a bad idea. Not to be a downer but commercialism is what is rotting the web. Bringing that cancer to the Fediverse would be asking for the same.
I had the same idea but there’s a lot of actual tangible assets that have to be dealt with.
The first part is picking a pilot country which is probably where the developer lives. The second is either investing in or partnering with Fast ship locations - you need a service or partner that you can use like Amazon prime to store inventory across a country, and last is shipping and delivery maybe it’s baked in. I bet there’s a company that does this that has an API or partnership program.
In other words you have to establish partnerships or literally incentivize real people to invest in order to create the same value as Amazon. The magic of amazon isn’t really that’s it’s like eBay and buying things online, it’s that I can get it so soon.
There is the very promising @Interledger Foundation, which aims to produce a defederated “open and inclusive payments network that puts humanity first”. It could eventually prove useful for money flow on federated platforms.
I’m intuitively critical of all online financial services like this one, but then you realize it was not only funded by the Mozilla Foundation and Creative Commons, but it’s actively support by the w3 consortium. Furthermore, it doesn’t use blockchain.
I think having your own store you control, like with WooCommerce, is enough.
What we need is more freedom respecting payment system and the closest thing I saw someone is working on is GNU Taler.
I wouldn’t say amazon provides a good experience. Their UI has always been crap and often I can’t even filter my search with obvious values.
Pitty I see that Openbazaar was discontinued…
Oh, so Shopify + Stripe but decentralized. It sounds… It might have some security issues, and of course banks might offer some resistance.
I posted this exact idea a week ago. Good that it finally gets discussed. :)