- cross-posted to:
- linux@sopuli.xyz
- hackernews@derp.foo
- technews@radiation.party
Luis Chamberlain sent out the modules changes today for the Linux 6.6 merge window. Most notable with the modules update is a change that better builds up the defenses against NVIDIA’s proprietary kernel driver from using GPL-only symbols. Or in other words, bits that only true open-source drivers should be utilizing and not proprietary kernel drivers like NVIDIA’s default Linux driver in respecting the original kernel code author’s intent.
Back in 2020 when the original defense was added, NVIDIA recommended avoiding the Linux 5.9 for the time being. They ended up having a supported driver several weeks later. It will be interesting to see this time how long Linux 6.6+ thwarts their kernel driver.
𝒍𝒆𝒎𝒂𝒏𝒏 ( @lemann@lemmy.one ) 217•2 years agoOh wow the comments on Phoronix for this one are bonkers.
From what I understand (because it wasn’t clear to me from either of the TLDRs posted here) Nvidia’s proprietary graphics driver has been calling parts of the kernel that they shouldn’t be, because their driver is closed source.
These seem to be parts of the kernel that another company may own patents to, but has only licensed it to the kernel for free use with GPL open source code only, i.e. closed source/proprietary code is not allowed to use it.
Nvidia seems to have open sourced a tiny communication shim to try and bypass this restriction, so their closed source driver talks to the shim, and the shim talks to the restricted code in the kernel, that Nvidia does not have a license to use. This is a DMCA violation, hence why the Kernel devs are putting in preventions to block the shim, as far as I can see.
I don’t understand the small minority of commenters there defending a la soulless corp Nvidia, who is blatantly in the wrong here. Some commenters have gone as far as to call the Linux kernel maintainers “zealots”, would not be surprised if they are alts for Nvidia devs…
Edit: typo
520 ( @520@kbin.social ) 67•2 years agoThen isn’t the correct solution to sue Nvidia?
It’s a legal issue with a legal solution.
Nucelar ( @Nucelar@kbin.social ) 103•2 years agoYou dont sue someone with deeper pockets than you.
Zucca ( @Zucca@sopuli.xyz ) 47•2 years agoThis is what’s wrong in so many countries.
cobra89 ( @cobra89@beehaw.org ) 31•2 years agoSo you want the company that licensed the patents to the Linux kernel for open source use to have to sue Nvidia for wrongly using their code? You want the company to have to spend a bunch of money suing Nvidia and possibly lose which would open the flood gates to more closed source code leeching off the Linux kernel?
Yeah that’s going to make them want to keep licensing their IP to the Linux Foundation (which they’re probably doing for free).
Or the maintainers can just submit a fairly simple patch to ensure that the kernel and the patents are being respected. Do you really think the first approach is the way to go?
Zatujit ( @Zatujit@reddthat.com ) 4•2 years agoBecause sueing is never great
520 ( @520@kbin.social ) 8•2 years agoNeither is having your copyright infringed. Neither is wasting volunteer manpower playing a technical game of cat and mouse
sederx ( @sederx@programming.dev ) 1•2 years agoapparently suing in these cases would mean having authorization from ALL contributors…
Tetsuo ( @Tetsuo@jlai.lu ) 54•2 years agoJust a perspective on why people would support NVIDIA here:
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They don’t believe in copyright law so they don’t mind whoever infringe on them. Especially since here it would make the proprietary driver work better.
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They do care about copyright law but think having a working driver outweighs respecting them.
Not my opinion here just saying that for some people usability trumps any other aspects.
Solar Bear ( @bear@slrpnk.net ) English74•2 years agoThey don’t believe in copyright law so they don’t mind whoever infringe on them. Especially since here it would make the proprietary driver work better.
I don’t believe in copyright law, but I especially don’t believe in partially enforced copyright law. Nvidia doesn’t get to use copyright to protect their proprietary code while infringing on the copyright of FOSS.
BaconIsAVeg ( @BaconIsAVeg@lemmy.ml ) English7•2 years agoAlso, some of us are using Nvidia because we rely on software that doesn’t work on AMD. I really enjoy using Linux, but if it’s going to make my life difficult I’ll go back to using Windows with WSL.
I agree Nvidia should resolve the licensing issues, but man GPL zealots get a such a raging hard-on for anything Nvidia related it’s funny to watch.
SkyeStarfall ( @SkyeStarfall@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) 30•2 years agoOr maybe we should keep companies, which rake in billions of dollars, to a much higher standard??
Nvidia could be better at open-sourcing their stuff. But they don’t. Blame them, not GPL.
Zucca ( @Zucca@sopuli.xyz ) 6•2 years agowe rely on software that doesn’t work on AMD
Which software?
BaconIsAVeg ( @BaconIsAVeg@lemmy.ml ) English3•2 years ago3D rendering software using iRay. I’ve started trying to learn Blender, but I’ve still got thousands spent on assets and hardware which means I’m not going to run out tomorrow and pickup a new card. It all works fine under Wine, but the amount of Nvidia hate on here is just tiring.
Zucca ( @Zucca@sopuli.xyz ) 2•2 years agoSo you use iRay as the rendering engine for Blender? And (I’m assuming a lot here) iRay doesn’t use CUDA, OpenCL etc, but straight talks to the GPU via graphics drivers, thus having hardware depency for nvidia GPU?
- LeFantome ( @LeFantome@programming.dev ) 7•2 years ago
Good read. I think the root is simply, don’t care about the rights of others if it is going to cost them something personally.
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RickyRigatoni ( @RickyRigatoni@lemmy.ml ) 24•2 years agoI don’t understand the small minority of commenters there defending a la soulless corp Nvidia, who is blatantly in the wrong here.
They think they’re gonna get a free 4090 in the mail any day now.
setVeryLoud(true); ( @isVeryLoud@lemmy.ca ) 21•2 years agoPhoronix comments are always wild
LSlowmotion ( @LSlowmotion@lemm.ee ) 9•2 years agoRemind me of those who supports Red Hat for blocking sources and telling those who downstreams “code thief with no contribution to open source” lol.
- LeFantome ( @LeFantome@programming.dev ) 15•2 years ago
I did not “support” Red Hat but I was pretty vocally in opposition to most of the reaction to it. I found the willful inaccuracy and even flagrant dishonestly from the “community” close to disgusting at times. So, you may be including people like me in your comment.
In this case, it seems very straight-forward that NVIDIA is in the wrong. Not just ethically but legally as well.
My own read is that some of the people slamming Red Hat are defending NVIDIA now. Coming away from that experience, I the over-arching principle that many adhere to most is simply whatever is best for them. Red Hat was wrong because people felt entitled to something. The kernel devs are wrong ( and NVIDIA right ) because people feel entitled to something.
mackwinston ( @mackwinston@feddit.uk ) 20•2 years agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYWzMvlj2RQ
“I’m also very happy to point out that nVidia has been the worst […] so nVidia, “fuck you!””
knexcar ( @knexcar@kbin.social ) 11•2 years agoBecause we don’t care about open source drama, we want an operating system that just works™ with our existing graphics cards and doesn’t get in the way of gaming.
odium ( @odium@programming.dev ) 43•2 years agoFrom a legal perspective, nvidia has been illegally bypassing a software license by exploiting a loophole. Linux devs fixed the loophole.
I don’t see why I would be annoyed at Linux devs in these circumstances.
Solar Bear ( @bear@slrpnk.net ) English5•2 years agoOkay, then continue not caring as the people who do take care of things. Don’t worry your pretty little head about it.
UltraFiestaMango ( @UltraFiestaMango@lemmy.ml ) English11•2 years agoBut why is it a problem if they call on parts of the kernal they shouldn’t? is it just a privacy concern, does it also impact performance? i don’t understand
cobra89 ( @cobra89@beehaw.org ) 10•2 years agoBecause the license for the patents that the Linux kernel is utilizing says that the code utilizing those patents must be open source. So therefore Nvidia is accessing those parts of the kernel illegally and against the license the Linux Foundation has. The Linux Foundation could lose the rights to use those patents if they’re not respecting the license.
Zatujit ( @Zatujit@reddthat.com ) 4•2 years agoCause the GPL is a virus
sapient [they/them] ( @sapient_cogbag@infosec.pub ) 3•2 years agoAnd it’s a good thing. Fuck proprietary software 😎
iegod ( @iegod@lemm.ee ) 2•2 years agoWe’ll be down voted, but agreed.
lckdscl [they/them] ( @lckdscl@whiskers.bim.boats ) English9•2 years agoAgree with your analysis, just pointing out that Phoronix forums have always been like this, or at least the tendency is to insult each other. Their culture is more toxic than any other Linux forums I’ve seen, maybe besides /g/.
bankimu ( @bankimu@lemm.ee ) 3•2 years agoIf it’s a dmca violation then sue them. Do not create software “defenses” and do not make my computer experience worse.
intelati ( @intelati@programming.dev ) 58•2 years agoRiddle me this, why is there such a thing as proprietary drivers for anything? Especially consumer facing products like this?
Don’t you want anyone and anything using your product in any situation? Help me understand NVIDIA’s bit with this?
eltimablo ( @eltimablo@kbin.social ) 62•2 years agoDriver code might expose some underlying secret sauce they’re using in the hardware. That’s the justification they always used to give, at any rate. At this point, though, it’s probably some code they’ve inherited from an acquisition that has a bunch of legal encumbrance stopping it from being open sources.
Blackmist ( @Blackmist@feddit.uk ) English20•2 years agoI assume nVidia have licensed other code that they don’t have the rights to distribute the source code for.
I get what the GPL fans want here, but it’s just going to lead to a gimped driver, no driver, or an even larger shim between the open and closed source bits. The Linux market is too small for nVidia to care.
- Rikudou_Sage ( @rikudou@lemmings.world ) 7•2 years ago
With GPUs being used for AI stuff and all sane people using Linux for servers, no, Linux market isn’t small at all for Nvidia.
apt_install_coffee ( @apt_install_coffee@lemmy.ml ) 16•2 years agoLikely a combination of 4 things:
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They have third party firmware in their blobs that they are under NDA regarding the source code.
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They believe in the source code is a large part of their success and don’t want to reveal it.
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They believe giving out the source code will allow many inferior variants of the software, impacting their brand.
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Control; the more source code they have in mesa the more of their code can be rejected by mesa. Keeping their stuff as blobs allows them to put in whatever hacks they want.
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luckystarr ( @luckystarr@feddit.de ) 0•2 years agoThey don’t want you to see the “if benchmark_xyz { do less work }” blocks of code.
Carlos Solís ( @csolisr@communities.azkware.net ) English58•2 years agoAnd that’s why I’m happy to see that the lock on modifying the Nvidia BIOS for their old graphics cards has finally been decrypted. That means that Nouveau will have a much easier route to make their open-source drivers work properly on the 10xx and 20xx cards, so we don’t have to rely on the tainted crumbs that Nvidia offered here. (Then again, I eventually moved to a 6600 specifically to no longer have to deal with this kind of shenanigans)
ProgrammingSocks ( @ProgrammingSocks@pawb.social ) 6•2 years agoMan, that would be so nice. I forgot actually for a while that I was using Nouveau after I switched cause nvidia-dkms wouldn’t let me boot (1050ti). The only thing that reminds me is game performance. Wayland is great though.
Ertebolle ( @Ertebolle@kbin.social ) 30•2 years agoa) Good for them
b) How long before NVIDIA throws up their hands at the whole thing and does their own Linux distro + pushes all their cloud AI customers to use it? (it doesn’t seem like they’re ever going to be shamed / coerced into actually open-sourcing their driver)
Laser ( @Laser@feddit.de ) 22•2 years agoThere’s an interesting discussion about the whole topic on the Phoronix forums about this. Some people claim that removing them and Nvidia’s current behavior is a DMCA violation:
- The kernel includes IP only licensed under GPLv2.
- While a module linked against the kernel isn’t necessarily a derived work which in turn would need to be licensed GPLv2 as well, there are specific interfaces that are meant for internal use and by their very nature would make your work derived if using them. These are the interfaces marked EXPORT_GPL_ONLY.
- Using these interfaces with a module not licensed GPLv2, you taint the kernel and violate the licensing.
- Removing the check, you aren’t necessarily yet violating GPLv2, but you’re removing a technical protection measure which is a violation of the DMCA.
It also raises the question why you’d remove checks that only prevent a possible GPLv2 violation if you’re not violating GPLv2 anyways as Nvidia claims.
poweruser ( @poweruser@lemmy.sdf.org ) English4•2 years agoyou aren’t necessarily yet violating GPLv2, but you’re removing a technical protection measure which is a violation of the DMCA.
Isn’t overcoming a technical limit a violation itself? That’s what made DeCSS illegal. They didn’t have to prove anyone was actually copying DVDs with it, just that DeCSS could allow you to copy a DVD
yum13241 ( @yum13241@lemm.ee ) 1•2 years agoYes, even if it’s a dialog box with only a “No” button, despite how easy it would be to get it to return a different value.
DISCLAIMER: IANAL, this is not legal advice.
off_brand_ ( @off_brand_@beehaw.org ) 2•2 years agoNot to be contrarian, but b) could well be a full decade of work and numerous individual projects
- argv_minus_one ( @argv_minus_one@beehaw.org ) 24•2 years ago
Lousy criminals. NVIDIA, I mean. If I wrote code like that, I’d be dragged in front of a judge and made to answer for breaking the DMCA. But if you’re a big, rich company, the government won’t touch you.
rmstyle ( @rmstyle@feddit.de ) 21•2 years agoThat’s just such a great image!
hlqxz ( @hlqxz@lemmy.ml ) English7•2 years agoMade me lol
TimeSquirrel ( @TimeSquirrel@kbin.social ) 5•2 years agoYeah they’d do that with a card that looks like it’s from 2003 with those classic dual DVI ports. Stole it right out of some kid’s Quake 3 box. Try that with a 4090.
AggressivelyPassive ( @agressivelyPassive@feddit.de ) 3•2 years agoGive the gigantic heatsink, that might actually work just fine. The PCI brackets are just stamped aluminium after all.
skymtf ( @skymtf@lemmy.blahaj.zone ) 15•2 years agoWhat ever happened to the source code nvidia did release. Was it released in such a way to where it is not helpful?
ReversalHatchery ( @ReversalHatchery@beehaw.org ) 13•2 years agoThat’s only for never generation cards, from 20xx series upwards I think.
But there’s still the proprietary driver for everything before that, including 1080 and such. 🅵🅴🅳🅴🆁🅰🅻🅰🅻🅸🅴🅽🆂🅼🆄🅶🅶🅻🅴🆁 ( @FederalAlienSmuggler@feddit.de ) English11•2 years agoThey are not legally allowed to build drivers from the illegally acquired source code.
Dubious_Fart ( @Dubious_Fart@lemmy.ml ) English15•2 years agocouldnt they do the thing where one team analyzes the leaked code and documents functions.
and a nother, clean room team, creates independent fresh code to achieve the same results as the original?
I mean, clean room activity like that has a strong precedent, going back to EA vs Sega at least. where EA stole a sega genesis dev kit, had one team document the functions, had another team independently create code to execute those functions,and made their own dev kid and put out non-approved sega carts (which is why the EA sega carts were taller and had the yellow plastic tag)
Sega sued and EA won due the clean room engineering and sega and EA came to some kind of sweetheart deal/comrpromise/settlement.
WorseDoughnut 🍩 ( @worsedoughnut@lemdro.id ) English12•2 years agoI don’t think they meant the hacked and released source code, I think they meant the kernel modules that Nvidia actually opensourced in may of '22
_cnt0 ( @_cnt0@lemmy.villa-straylight.social ) 2•2 years agoI have not had a look at it myself, but my understanding is, that that was/is only glue code to the closed source blob.
monobot ( @monobot@lemmy.ml ) 3•2 years agoYou are correct, it while it was technically driver for kernel, meaning it is using kernel driver api, it was not driver for graphic card. Just a bit different way to load binary blob.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
The Linux 6.6 modules infrastructure is changing to better protect against the illicit behavior of NVIDIA’s proprietary kernel driver.
Most notable with the modules update is a change that better builds up the defenses against NVIDIA’s proprietary kernel driver from using GPL-only symbols.
Given that symbol_get was only ever intended for tightly cooperating modules using very internal symbols it is logical to restrict it to being used on EXPORY_SYMBOL_GPL and prevent nvidia from costly DMCA circumvention of access controls lawsuits.
Luis Chamberlain further added in today’s pull request: "Christoph Hellwig’s symbol_get() fix to Nvidia’s efforts to circumvent the protection he put in place in year 2020 to prevent proprietary modules from using GPL only symbols, and also ensuring proprietary modules which export symbols grandfather their taint.
The circumvention tactic used by Nvidia was to use symbol_get() to purposely swift through proprietary module symbols and completley bypass our traditional EXPORT_SYMBOL*() annotations and community agreed upon restrictions."
Back in 2020 when the original defense was added, NVIDIA recommended avoiding the Linux 5.9 for the time being.
The original article contains 476 words, the summary contains 174 words. Saved 63%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
Zucca ( @Zucca@sopuli.xyz ) 11•2 years agoPhoronix thinks I’m using ad blocker. In fact I’m not. I don’t have any kind of adblocker on my network… *sigh*
Damusins ( @Phenomenalpooran@kerala.party ) 16•2 years agoMeanwhile me using ublock adblocker and flawlessly reading the content on firefox
Rayspekt ( @Rayspekt@kbin.social ) 9•2 years agoCan someone ELI5 what this is about? Why does Nvidia wants to access parts if the Linux kernel and why are linux kernel maintainers against it? Wouldn’t it be good if Nvidia uses more open-source stuff?
- SSUPII ( @SSUPII@sopuli.xyz ) 17•2 years ago
Open source software is given with specific licenses. The Linux kernel is made of many smaller open-source components that each can have their own license. Some of the licenses used disallow the partial or full usage of the licensed software or components in proprietary settings, or in general given usage for specific cases only (in this case, the Nvidia driver using components they are not licensed to use.).
Madex ( @Madex@lemm.ee ) 9•2 years agoSo what does that mean for me on Arch, how will it affect me?
ELI5?
- librechad ( @librechad@lemm.ee ) 7•2 years ago
Just installed the nvidia-driver for my 2080 SUPER and my system isn’t starting now. I’m using Debian 12.1 and after installing the driver, it crashes after entering in my password for my encrypted drive.
I will load up a Live USB and see if I can fix the issue. Any help would be appreciated!
TheFriendlyArtificer ( @TheFriendlyArtificer@beehaw.org ) 12•2 years agoBlacklist the Nvidia driver and un-blacklist nouveau. I’m going from memory, but I think if you can get to GRUB, you can append ‘single’ to your kernel parameters. That should get you into a system with minimal drivers loaded.
bankimu ( @bankimu@lemm.ee ) 6•2 years agoIt’s sad to see the 100500th confrontation between the people who have never contributed to the kernel, yet they want to deprive others of using their existing GPU with Linux and instead force them to buy a new GPU. This screams of of being elitist and haughty but I just don’t care any longer. Too tired of hatred, aggression, animosity and verbal attacks. This has really propelled Linux, oh, wait, it’s only shown what kind of people represent Open Source.
- argv_minus_one ( @argv_minus_one@beehaw.org ) 23•2 years ago
Those “haughty” “elitists” wrote your operating system and gave it to you for free. Have some gratitude, and direct your complaints to the uncooperative scoundrels in charge of NVIDIA who created this whole problem.
LoafyLemon ( @LoafyLemon@kbin.social ) 15•2 years agoWill someone please think of the mega corporation. 😢
Sentau ( @Sentau@lemmy.one ) 1•2 years agoDude are you Avis from the phoronix forums¿? This comment is the exact copy of his/her comment there.
Mike ( @MDKAOD@lemmy.ml ) 2•2 years agoTAINT_PROPRIETARY_MODULE & GPL Condom has to be intentional double entendre right?