Schoolgirls who refused to change out of the loose-fitting robes have been sent home with a letter to parents on secularism.
French public schools have sent dozens of girls home for refusing to remove their abayas – long, loose-fitting robes worn by some Muslim women and girls – on the first day of the school year, according to Education Minister Gabriel Attal.
Defying a ban on the garment seen as a religious symbol, nearly 300 girls showed up on Monday morning wearing abayas, Attal told the BFM broadcaster on Tuesday.
Most agreed to change out of the robe, but 67 refused and were sent home, he said.
The government announced last month it was banning the abaya in schools, saying it broke the rules on secularism in education that have already seen headscarves forbidden on the grounds they constitute a display of religious affiliation.
The move gladdened the political right but the hard left argued it represented an affront to civil liberties.
The 34-year-old minister said the girls refused entry on Monday were given a letter addressed to their families saying that “secularism is not a constraint, it is a liberty”.
If they showed up at school again wearing the gown there would be a “new dialogue”.
He added that he was in favour of trialling school uniforms or a dress code amid the debate over the ban.
Uniforms have not been obligatory in French schools since 1968 but have regularly come back on the political agenda, often pushed by conservative and far-right politicians.
Attal said he would provide a timetable later this year for carrying out a trial run of uniforms with any schools that agree to participate.
“I don’t think that the school uniform is a miracle solution that solves all problems related to harassment, social inequalities or secularism,” he said.
But he added: “We must go through experiments, try things out” in order to promote debate, he said.
‘Worst consequences’
Al Jazeera’s Natacha Butler, reporting from Paris before the ban came into force said Attal deemed the abaya a religious symbol which violates French secularism.
“Since 2004, in France, religious signs and symbols have been banned in schools, including headscarves, kippas and crosses,” she said.
“Gabriel Attal, the education minister, says that no one should walk into a classroom wearing something which could suggest what their religion is.”
On Monday, President Emmanuel Macron defended the controversial measure, saying there was a “minority” in France who “hijack a religion and challenge the republic and secularism”.
He said it leads to the “worst consequences” such as the murder three years ago of teacher Samuel Paty for showing Prophet Muhammad caricatures during a civics education class.
“We cannot act as if the terrorist attack, the murder of Samuel Paty, had not happened,” he said in an interview with the YouTube channel, HugoDecrypte.
An association representing Muslims has filed a motion with the State Council, France’s highest court for complaints against state authorities, for an injunction against the ban on the abaya and the qamis, its equivalent dress for men.
The Action for the Rights of Muslims (ADM) motion is to be examined later on Tuesday.
For those who don’t get this, ‘Laïcité’ is what the French call the secularism which is part of their constitution.
Plenty are as serious about it, as many in the US are about free speech or the right to own a gun.
Obviously this is also in part a more recent phenomenon. France has a large Muslim population and laïcité is arguably interpreted more strictly by those who wish to combat the influence of Islam on French mainstream culture.
good summary
“Since 2004, in France, religious signs and symbols have been banned in schools, including headscarves, kippas and crosses,”
I agree with it, not in the “hah, we are dunking on minorities” way, but just because I’m personally so sick of religion being a part of every waking moment of life and being used as a cudgel to influence public policy, media, and what choices people can make when it comes to important personal choices, such as healthcare. Of course, this is being viewed through my American lens, but we’ve seen similar erosions in public institutions due to so-called “religious rights” despite being a secular country. While France’s version is fairly blunt, it seeks to normalize and equalize everyone, which I think is a decent goal.
If it wasn’t religion, I’m positive it would be something else. But I think it’s very healthy to maintain separation of religion while at public institutions, particularly in a world where religious extremism is on the rise.
France is fairly blunt in most ways.
When you come to live in France, you are french. If you don’t consider yourself french, you are just a tourist.
This is my interpretation of the attitude my French friends have.
When you come to live in France, you are french.
I don’t think that’s how most of the immigrants feel.
Then they should move elsewhere. When you immigrate to a country it’s on you to conform. I as a gay man would never consider moving to a Muslim country where my lifestyle is rejected. If otters feel their values don’t align with secularism then don’t come here.
Yes, they should but relocating is expensive and after couple of decades of discrimination most of them are not very rich. France brought them from their colonies (not literally of course they they put their immigration policy in place because they actually wanted immigrants) and then bocked all opportunities from them. Now they are shocked that migrants are not happy living as second class citizens…
Can’t disagree there…
lol no. Youre french when they can put you on a pedestal for how becoming french has helped you achieve something. But god forbid you do something that is not considered favorable by the french. Then you are an immigrant and you being an immigrant is the cause of all
Yes, let’s exempt them from proper education. That’ll solve the problem.
They aren’t exempt from education, school is mandatory in France. It’s their parents who will get into trouble.
Do you think? Their parents have sent them to school.
Yes, the parents have to make sure their child gets to school and can participate in class. This also means they have to make sure their child (is able to) follow the rules.
Make proper education mandatory
“Gabriel Attal, the education minister, says that no one should walk into a classroom wearing something which could suggest what their religion is.”
I was initially torn on this, but as long as it’s for all religions, I support it. I firmly believe that I shouldn’t know your religion unless I ask. Religion is toxic.
I do think you should have the freedom to wear religious signifiers as an adult. I just don’t approve. But I don’t want to stop you. Children in school? This is the same (to me) as requiring them to leave their phones at home.
An Abaya is just a flowing robe.
This ban is like an American school saying you’re allowed to wear cowboy hats but not sombreros because sombreros are associated with catholicism, in that they are mostly associated with the culture of a predominately catholic country.
This is like banning kids from wearing rainbows because it signifies their values.
I disagree, the Abaya is not just a flowing robe.
It is a garment that is required by the Sharia law (see Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries where women are not allowed to choose what they wear).
Allowing this is the first step in letting religion in the public schools in France, where it has always been explicitly banned.
And it is very unlike banning rainbows, those are a symbol used to promote acceptance of the diversity of others, something religions struggle with (ever notice how religion is closely tied with extremism?)
Another factor to take into account is that these young girl may be forced by their family to wear such a garment, imposing upon them something they may not be old enough to refuse.
Also, look up the paradox of intolerance, as allowing anyone to do as they please causes the rise of extremism.
This is a very hyperbolic take on that paradox.
An article of clothing can’t be religious on its own. Saudi Arabia may have done the wrong thing by requiring this specific article of clothing but banning it is also bad.
A girl may want to wear a loose fitting dress for any number of reasons. Some people are just more modest than others and that shouldn’t be punished.
Looking at abaya online, and as a westerner I actually kinda like the style of them as well. I could see them being work as a strictly fashionable article of clothing.
An article of clothing can’t be religious on its own
Really? What about a kippa ? Or a priest’s robes ?
The kippa is forbidden in french schools for this very same reason, it signals religion.
Loose fitting dresses are not forbidden, abayas are. They are a specific kind of loose fitting dresses. One that signals religion.
I don’t see them working as a fashion article, but that may just be my taste.
I’m from Texas and I think abayas look cool as heck on their own.
And no. A kippa on its own shouldn’t be seen as religious. Even if they are primarily used for religion.
Robes were not originally limited to priests, they just feel out of fashion.
I’ve honestly been consistently against the persecution France has on religious clothing in general. It’s very short sighted to limit fashion in that way.
I really appreciate you engaging in more than just one liners.
I disagree, the Abaya is not just a flowing robe.
It is a garment that is required by the Sharia law (see Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries where women are not allowed to choose what they wear).
From le Monde
[Saudi Arabia] Since 2022 (…) has outlawed the wearing of abaya for women during examinations.
It is not a religious garment. It is a cultural garment. You’re right that it is often worn by Muslim women/girls to achieve islamic notions of modesty. But it’s predominately worn by people strongly influenced by Arab culture, not muslims everywhere.
I agree that countries should not generally be dictating what people are allowed to wear.
Allowing this is the first step in letting religion in the public schools in France, where it has always been explicitly banned.
Except it’s not the first step in letting religion in schools. It was already allowed and then was banned. The pendulum is swinging away from religious tolerance. It would be more accurate to view the ban as the next step in a series of measures further disembracing France’s ethnic minorities.
And it is very unlike banning rainbows, those are a symbol used to promote acceptance of the diversity of others
So you support symbols of the acceptance of the diversity of others. But you do not support actual acceptance of cultural diversity.
ever notice how religion is closely tied with extremism?
Yes. Too many religions have dark histories/presents.
Another factor to take into account is that these young girl may be forced by their family to wear such a garment, imposing upon them something they may not be old enough to refuse.
I think the best way to help people in situations like this is to get them into environments where they can make strong relationships with people outside their family’s religion. Like public schools.
Also, look up the paradox of intolerance, as allowing anyone to do as they please causes the rise of extremism.
I’m familiar with the concept and agree that limitations to freedom are necessary to protect freedom. But is it intolerance to wear an Abaya or is it intolerance to forbid unfamiliar styles of clothing?
I applaud France’s goal of a secular society. But I think this policy is a misstep.
Look at images of abaya compared to duster cardigans and maybe you’ll see what I mean.
I support a ban on cowboy boots, too.
In the Americas there were schools for native American children where they forced them to dress, eat, speak, and behave “properly” and not practice their religion. The goal was to eliminate their culture and make them homogeneously American or Canadian. (They also killed a fucking ton) This sort of nationalism has generally been looked back on as a mistake and a horrible atrocity. Why should it be acceptable towards other religious groups?
These kids aren’t being taken from their families. They aren’t being forced to give up their religion in their homes. These are not the same. This isn’t about “other religious groups.” It’s all religions while at school, and I’m fine with that.
The goal is to replace religion with nationalism, which isn’t an admirable goal. They may not literally say it out loud, but it’s pretty obvious.
The goal is to replace religion with nationalism
It really isn’t, though?
I’m not in support of nationalism. I don’t know if what you said is accurate or not. I simply approve of keeping religion out of schools.
I don’t want religion in schools, outside that, you’re still free to practice what you want, but keep religion out of education. France got this one right
Do they ban other forms of religious expression? Crosses/crucifixes? Yarmulke/kippah?
Or is it just Islamic symbols?From what I’ve read they ban all of it. Granted I don’t live there nor do I see it in practice, but they’ve mentioned it in a few articles.
I read up on it a bit more.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_law_on_secularity_and_conspicuous_religious_symbols_in_schools
It seems like regulations on religious attire are selectively applied. Small crosses and stars of David, some variations of Sikh turbans, Fatima’s hands are acceptable and the final decision is left up to school headmasters.
It also sounds like the legislators who created it specifically intended to target Muslim headdress.
It’s one thing to keep religion out of education. It seems that they’re disproportionately concerned about suprsesssing Islam in their schools.
Ah, thanks for the link. Yes, they’re definitely in the wrong if there’s even an iota of selective enforcement.
I want to be very careful around judging the intentions of people who live 5000 miles away and speak a language I don’t understand. There’s a lot of room to misunderstand people’s intentions.
But from what I can see, it’s looking like there’s an intentional bias.
New criminal offense: Learning while Muslim.
Only that is not.
Crucifixes and other outter religious symbols are facing the same restriction.
For what reason a particular creed holds such tight restrictions on what garments are considered adequate over others evades.
This is a quite harsh way to impose a rule but it is a fair one. No one is being denied education. This is “keep your beliefs to yourself and do not impose it onto others”.
the Abaya is just a long wide cut dress. They are banning girls from wearing long dresses, because these are popular with muslims. If the girls decide to wear hoodies now to be conservative about what they show of their body it would need to be banned by that logic too. Basically anything that is not skin tight hot pants and crop tops should be banned because it might be worn by muslim girls to adhere to their religious values.
This ruling has nothing to do with actual secular values. It is just to discriminate against muslim children.
Tailored to specifications dictated by an unquestionable authority or are the abaya user free to order the garment to be tailored to their personal specific taste?
Because to what I can gather it is supposed to be used as a form to preserve modesty, which implies simplicity and discretion.
Flowing, straight cut dresses are not exclusive to the muslim world.
Hoodies are not banned. You are making stuff up.
i didnt say they are banned. but by the pretended logic behind the ban they would need to ban hoodies too. Which shows that the law is not aimed at enforcing secularism but at discriminating muslims. Most likely to appease the far right.
According to German news (source) girls already had to defend their choice of wearing an oversized sweater and long skirt. That’s going way too far in regulation in my opinion.
“Ackshually, technically, totally fair.” This clearly only affects this one group of people in practice. The law was obviously made to garner the bigot vote and distract from the incredibly unpopular shit this government is pulling. This “technically” shit is only deflection. I mean it works great on people who are Islamophobic but don’t actually want to admit that to themselves. Plausible deniability.
impose it onto others
How are these children “imposing” anything onto others? You see one abaya, and now you’re forced to accept Mohammed as your prophet? Do you know what “impose” means? You used it correctly just two sentences before that.
“Ackshually, technically, totally fair.”
Want to throw “mansplaining” and “neckbeard” there too? Seems to be missing to finish the bouquet.
This clearly only affects this one group of people in practice. The law was obviously made to garner the bigot vote and distract from the incredibly unpopular shit this government is pulling. This “technically” shit is only deflection. I mean it works great on people who are Islamophobic but don’t actually want to admit that to themselves. Plausible deniability.
Could not care any less. By definition, I uphold that no creed, whatsoever, deserves special treatment. And fascism is the hot buzzer nowadays: everything and everyone is a fascist nowadays, the moment they are not willing to concede by default on any given point.
The abaya is an outter sign of religiosity, usually imposed to women that come from muslim backgrounds or go into it. It is not a fashion statement or personal style: it’s forced differentiation that no one has to respect or endure.
Have the girls and women have a say on what they use, not a father, or male relative or a religious figure nor a so called sacred book.
impose it onto others
How are these children “imposing” anything onto others? You see one abaya, and now you’re forced to accept Mohammed as your prophet? Do you know what “impose” means? You used it correctly just two sentences before that.
Inadvertantly answered to this point above but I’ll expand a little more.
Personally speaking, which makes the following an anecdote, which by the force of argument engagement voids it of validity, I actually find quite beautiful the elaborate embroidery and decorations the traditional northern Africa and Turkish garments can sport. I find it lavish, elaborate and just beautiful. The art and work put into it is fabulous. But this same elaborate work is usually absent in the abayas and other “traditional” muslim associated garments we usually see in Europe, which are often bland, in drab colors. Why?
If it is about defending culture, which is the default argument, why aren’t those traditional garments sewn and used here, where they could even contribute to counter the prêt-à-porter seasonal discardable fashion? Make an actual contribution to the local culture and enrich it.
It’s France they’re very xenophobic. Just look at how they treat the Corsicans, Brentons, Basques and Catalans.
Night and day to even a few hundred metres across the road in Spain or Andorra.
I’m not saying France isn’t racist because they absolutely are but this doesn’t seem like that this seems like applying the same rules to everyone equally.
Just going by the article.
As someone who comes from Muslim upbringing, I am 100% against face veils and abayas. But this is very clearly racist. Those girls are the victims, so why punish them even further? France is such a fascist place.
Clearly not racist. Same rules for everyone.
Weird how in practice this seems to only affect one group of people. Weird how all the bigots seem love this. But this couldn’t be the reason for this, could it? Who would ever try to exploit the widespread Islamophobia in France to gain popularity and distract from real problems?
From what I understand, this affects everyone. All religious symbols are banned from school. I do not know what the rest of your murmuring has to do with the specific topic.
because the Abaya is not a religious symbol. It is a long dress that is worn for religious reasons, in this case to not reveal too much of the body. So if they want to ban this religious “symbol” then they need to ban all clothes that arent very revealing.
Yes of course, it is just a piece of clothing. A piece of clothing that women are forced to wear in public in the women’s rights loving state of saudi arabia. It is not about very revealing clothing, you are intentionally missing the point here. It is specifically about this piece of religious clothing.
You are wrong. There is no forcing of women to wear an abaya in saudi arabia. they are forced to wear clothes that arent revealing, but it is not specific to this kind of clothing.
Also it is a weird flex to say that it is good to force women to wear certain clothing because saudi arabia forces them to wear different clothing. You still end up forcing women to wear or not to wear certain things, taking away their liberty.
Again it is not a religious symbol because it is not defined by the religion, unlike the robe of a priest, the cross or the head scarf.
If you want to ban the underlying “symbol” of not wearing revealing clothing, youd need to ban all clothing that does that and not just the abaya. But they wont do that because they are bigoted hypocrites.
Are urinals sexist?
Is the intention of urinals to bully women?
Please learn what fascism means.
And racism while you are at it.
Thanks for the recommendation, but I already know.
Those girls get pressured by their family and then pressured again in school/work. They have to wear it but also mustn’t…
Who should respect who?
- Girls with abayas should respect local culture and not wear them.
- Locals should respect girls with abayas and let them wear them.
- Locals should respect girls with abayas and every girl should wear it.
All the students should start wearing abayas.
It will entirely break down the argument that it’s a religious symbol.
While secularism is important for the school as an official institution, the fact that this applies to private persons is absolutely dumb.
After looking at what an abaya is and understanding some of the overt and covert reasons for doing this and the reaction, the cool solution would be if abayas (they’re really just a loose dress) started to be marketed at everyone, so that anyone could wear them and end this stupid debacle. What do people wear in the west if they don’t want people to look at their “curves” anyway? Huge market gap, right there. Or maybe instead of abayas they’ll start wearing long trench coats to school, lol.
PS: meanwhile, in SA: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-saudi-women-socialmedia-idUSKCN1NL2A1
“Women in Saudi Arabia have for decades been required to wear the abaya - a loose, all-covering robe - in public, a dress code strictly enforced by police.”
And there are still people in here defending this lol
People are oppressed in that part of the world, let’s oppress the ones in our country with the opposite this way they are more free!
From personal experience with people whose parents are Muslim: a lot of those kids aren’t wearing this out of their own free will.
I understand how this is controversial but I think it is absolutely necessary. Parents have no right to force their religion on their kids and unless there are laws against it those kids will not have any second of time free from that oppression. And before you claim hypocrisy: The same goes for Christianity and any of its bullshit like crosses everywhere.
Yes, telling people not to bring religion into public education is so oppressive right?
Give me a break, this is the 21st century, not the 15th century
started to be marketed at everyone
The equivalent for men is the qamis, however you don’t see them using it. Just this tells everything you need to know about the abaya.
Good! The rules are for everybody. Freedom from religion!
TLDR?