Freedom of speech or freedom of expression isn’t freedom from consequences. Words matter, and they have consequences, and people should consider the consequences of their speech in public.
Agreed. Fuck off with this “we have no free speech” bullshit, substack (and it’s freedom of conscience in Canada in the first place, not free speech). All of the things listed are social consequences, not criminal prosecution or some other government persecution. Sarah was booted by her party, not the government, and the rest are employers and universities. If there is fault, it lies with those organizations.
It’s also not protected speech, so if there is fault, those organizations will have to suffer social consequences themselves, as it doesn’t seem that they broke any laws.
The censured her:
The Doug Ford government has put forward a motion that would censure an Ontario NDP MPP over her comments on the Israel-Gaza war and ask they not be recognized in the legislature until a formal apology is made and a statement on social media is deleted.
The motion calls comments made by Hamilton Centre MPP Sarah Jama last week “antisemitic” and “discriminatory.” If passed, it would call on the Speaker not to recognize Jama in the House “until the Member retracts and deletes her statement on social media and makes an apology in her place in the House.”
So they’re trying to completely take away her ability to govern because of her speech. So yes, the government is trying to silence her.
And like several things Douggie has put through, it will ultimately be deemed illegal. That bill is a clear violation of charter rights.
I’m not familiar with how censure works in the Ontario Provincial Parliament legal framework. Do you have any examples of precedent where a censure motion has been struck down in court? Because my understanding is that the majority was within their legal powers to do this.
You mean the government that was handed a 66% majority by 17% of eligible voters?
You get the government you deserve when you don’t fucking show up to vote.
There’s a bit of a blurred line when they’re members of government or government organizations versus private employers.
A political party IS part of government, even if it’s not the political party leading the country. However, a party shouldn’t be forced to keep somebody who goes off the rails and is causing them damage. At the same time, those same parties seem to be very pick-and-choose about which “rebellious” members they decide to expel and over what issues
Also, one of the examples cited was York University, and universities are provincially regulated and funded.
Clock is ticking. Just wait until the companies start fucking you over with this power you’ve given them.
Like most people, I avoid companies that platform hate, and am perfectly contented being banned from them if they go that far. That’s not a power they ever didn’t have.
Like I said, clock is ticking. You won’t be so happy go lucky when it’s your job getting a new CEO or a big platform like YouTube denying you access to a platform.
My job getting a new CEO? Getting a new useless figurehead is supposed to scare me? Why? Youtube is going to block me? Why should I care? They either moderate hateful content, or they lose me and a great many others -voluntarily.
Indeed. And if the NDP won’t allow its members to recognize that Israel is an apartheid state, then members who see it as such should abandon the party. Both those serving as public representatives, and regular members and donors.
Asking a genuine question regarding the apartheid terminology here. When someone refers to Israel as a apartheid state with regards to Palestinian civilians it always doesn’t make sense to me. Because for that to be true, one needs to consider Gaza and Westbank to be Israeli territory, which I don’t think is a concept that anyone who makes this claim agrees with. To me, that’s like saying North America is an apartheid continent because Canadians and Mexicans don’t get the same rights as Americans in America.
During the Apartheid era in South Africa there were also nominal “independent” countries, known as Bantustans. Israel occupies the West Bank, effectively controlling it the way a Bantustan were controlled. The blockade of Gaza has a similar effect. Finally, there are discriminatory laws in Israel proper. For more information, read this as a starter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apartheid
Thank you for the explanation. To me it still seems to be a case of expanding the terminology beyond it’s original meaning given the context. The situation today is more of a country occupying part of another country while laying siege on another part of the said country. If this can be referred to as apartheid I don’t see why it can’t be used on most invasions and occupational wars in human history. Furthermore, I’m too young know what people thinks of South Africa back then, but as far as I can remember South Africa has been seen as a single unit in my lifetime. Hence, referring to Israel as an apartheid state in my mind has the implication of Israel somehow has the right and responsibility of ruling over Palestinian territory. Treating the citizens of an occupied country poorly is bad but shouldn’t automatically qualify as apartheid, even though I agree there are some resemblance in practice.
The case with Israel proper is more interesting because you can make the case that there are some apartheid elements such as the fact only Jews enjoys the right to automatically become Israeli citizens which isn’t available to other ethnic groups that currently resides in Israel. However to my knowledge Israel proper isn’t what most people think of when they make the case that Israel is an apartheid state, even tho imo it makes a more compelling case per definition.
Don’t be dense, read the article. The story is not about legality or free speech absolutism. It is about how the window of acceptable political speech in what is considered mainstream has narrowed to a stifling degree to exclude very reasonable milquetoast peacenik sentiments.
the story is not about legality
Then it shouldn’t use the words “free speech” in the headline. Free speech is very much a legal term.
So is theft and murder and inheritance. We use legal terms in regular parlance all the time.
Ok, and? Regular parlance can be about legal implications too, I’ve never heard the words “free speech” used in a context with no connection to their legal meaning. Do you have a counter example?
I’ve never heard the words “free speech” used in a context with no connection to their legal meaning. Do you have a counter example?
Yes. The very article in this post.
You ever heard of a circular argument?
I’m pretty sure only Cons try to say we have free speech because they don’t know our laws
Of note though; freedom of speech means freedom from persecution not freedom from consequence
Tell me you didn’t read the article without telling me you didn’t read the article.
So where did they highlight people being put in court over comments and where did they explain that they are aware we don’t have free speech so even someone being in court isn’t a problem?
This is exactly why we need to have open and censorship resistant platforms.
We should never celebrate deplatforming people for unpopular or evil opinions, not because we agree with those opinions, but because those tools can and will be used against good causes / us eventually.
The cancelling culture, and rage framework that has existed in the west media is now being turned against “worthy” causes.
I’ve gotten into many deplatforming is evil, and shouldn’t be encouraged/allowed arguments on lemmy - this is exactly why I engage. Do I care about kiwifarms, communists, racists, no… I do not, but when its time for my voice to be heard above the whargarble of public opinion i need those very same platforms to exist.
The next step would be to legistate that protected free speech should also protect people from employment discrimination and reprisals, but that is probably a discussion for another day.
Today I think the big fight is over saying : Killing civilians is bad, ethnic cleansing is bad, genocide is bad…
The article points out that those that have been bitching about free speech being suppressed when it’s about some bigot spewing fash crap, are uniquely silent when it comes to racialized people speaking out about genocide and apartheid. The “free speech debate”, “anti-wokism”, “anti-cancelling” etc has never been about lifting the voices of those who are structurally silenced at every turn in this country. It has always been about people that already have privilege being able to punch down with impunity. So fuck that.
I’m here making noise about the silencing of genocide and apartheid.
As an aside, the number of times, this week!, I’ve had a argument about the dictionary being wrong, and that the definitions are inaccurate, sensational, antisemitic… is laughably high.
Arguing that the dictionary is correct and should be cited as the arbiture of language ignores that language is a fluid, evolving structure. Dictionaries are guides to help seek understanding and seeking to be understood. They’re not law by which we must abide.
I agree with many points from the article but I don’t think the title choice was good
Therer are people who could be discussing this credibly but a troll like Loreto isn’t one of them.